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Kurt Jiagu

Something for Animators to think about !

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I have spent many hours looking for dance animations to add to a build ,  yet it seems all those that create couples dance animations either sell them at exaggerated prices for copy/transfer or do not sell them at all  with those permissions . In fact on  making enquiries in an Animators group in sl , I was advised to learn to make them myself !. Well let me just say this , not everyone who is in sl and creating things either wants to be a builder/scripter/animator to be able to do so , nor usually has the time to be able to learn all those skills ......I think there is a genuine market for copy /transfer animations ,for people who are willing to pay and do not have the necessary skills needed to make such things for themselves .......Not only this ,  but by monopolising such things  this stifles the creativity possible in sl .........Whilst I can appreciate the creators saying well it takes a long time etc to create such things especially with  Mocap etc etc ...............most people dont care how its made or how long it took,  as long as it works ..........:)And not only only that by releasing such animations for other builders to use its a way of  advertising your animations which will probably lead to even more sales ................. so maybe have a rethink on your policies ..............:)

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I have to disagree with this. Making 1 dance animation is difficult. Making 2 which seamlessly work together is a huge challenge.

I give mad props to the people who actually make such things and completely understand the not selling of a copy/trans model. If you spent hours and I means HOURS working on a set of dance animations for someone to come along and buy it with the possibility of misusing and handing them out for free? That would be a huge waste of time and slightly abusive to the original creator don't you think?

High prices for a copy/transfer objects is a standard it protects the creator and let's them feel reassured their creation isn't just for nothing. If there was an amazing couple dance animations for cheap with copy/tran permissions then in all fairness that would be because the original creator is in sense giving a gift to second life.

"And not only only that by releasing such animations for other builders to use its a way of  advertising your animations which will probably lead to even more sales" - No absolutly not, because releasing such animations for builders would mean releasing it to the public which would then mean that you would be making more sales from his animations because you stuck it in a disco ball or somthing. In all fairness this idea is in favour of one person. You. Not the original creator.

"most people dont care how its made or how long it took" The original creator does I would hate spending hours on something to see someone give it away for half the prices or in some dance animator for half the price.

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I think it is very hard for the average SL user to understand how long it takes to make these. Even just a good dance mocap takes days, if not a week. It being mocap doesn't mean they just record it and the computer does all the work. When you are talking couples dance, you are talking 3 times the work of a normal mocap dance.

If you ask me, the animators that sell mocap couples dances do not charge enough. The work to proft ratio is small because of the total time it takes. I personally have stayed away from making these, just because the risk of loss is high. No creator in the world wants to spend this much time on something only to see some person that they don't know sell their work for free. Don't blame the animators, blame the scammers and cheats. I understand that it can be frustrating for non animators, but if you've ever tried to make them, you'd understand completely.

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Well thats exactly the kind of reply I expected , :) firstly I had no intentions of sticking it in a disco ball , secondly i  hasve been in  sl more than long enough to be able to use animations correctly and set the permissions correctly before selling on .......... thats very arrogant to suggest that anyone likely to be buying them is incapabale of using them correctly . There are a lot more builds that these animations can be used in other than " disco balls " or dance huds , some of us in sl  actually do other things :)

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Everybody should get rewards for their work..i totally agree,i also think that creators could make an option to sell any creation copy/ trans for a price..high as it may be its the customer to decide then if he is willing to pay it.

After all its business too,right?

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Though I do not create animations for sale, I do make very complex custom ones for the troupe I perform with. It takes a LOT of time and detail work to make something of quality that loops seamlessly. So I totally understand the pricing  and the permissions you see out there. I have no issues paying the prices for dances I think are excellent and I consider them to be a very good value as we use them when performing. 

It definitely is not a monopoly because anyone can make animations if they care to. Yes, it takes time to learn. So can scripting, creating textures etc. As Medhue said, it is the scammers and cheats who have helped set up the situation. 

You can always try to talk with an animator whose work you like to see if they would be willing to work with you on pricing and permissions for what you are building. It never hurts to ask.

Those of us who did take the time and effort to learn these skills feel we should be paid what we ask for the all the effort in producing a high quality product. As creators we are allowed to put a value on our creations. The public does recognize high quality and seeing how busy some of the animation places are, I would say they have no lack of sales....

 

 

 

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mewping all day long :matte-motes-bashful:

 

I though dance animations were meant to be put in disco balls.

Anyways, dance machine makers sell you the machine, dance machine owners buy the animations and drop them into the machine. So i guess you can go that route for your not a dance machine but has dance aniimation in it.

I have a dancing machine i put on my head, and i buy my dances to put in them, so that seems to be the way most go.

But if you really want to include a dance and not have them put there own in, then just hire a animator to create one for you.

Another way to go could be to form a relationship with a dance animation place, and give them royalties for each sale.

I am sure you can think of other ways that have not been mentioned in the replies, thats the fun part of having your own business figuring it out 

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Imagine if the animator has to pay dancers to do the dances. I generally like to pay my female models, for female AO movements, around $200 per recording session. Most people do not think about the fact that animators can't do everything. Just like every1 else in the world, we may be male or female, or an athlete or not, or a good dancer or not. For all the things we are not, we have to hired actors/models to record their movement to get good realistic motion to work from.

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It's not just mocap either - even without the outlay of hardware costs on a mocap rig and avoiding software costs by using free tools, it's a huge investment of time to even produce 30s of high quality animation. Back when I was maintaining an inworld store and a marketplace presence I used to do it all, build, sculpt script and animate. For the projects I still have ongoing I still do. The reason I had to shut down that business is that I simply couldnt keep up.


You can make a dreadful keyframed animation for a single character in minutes, or seconds if all you want is a static pose. If it only lasts a few seconds you can make it "mediocre" in a few hours. If it's longer than that or you want better quality you're looking at many many hours tweaking individual frames to even make it "good enough", particularly if it involves more than one av.

One item I made had about 80 couples 15-second animations in it, scripted so each one could feed into several others, with multiple branching paths from a single start point to several possible finishes. However each of those paths were only a few minutes long. Keyframing 40 minutes total of animations took me equivalent of more than two months of full time work. Call it another couple of full-time weeks to get the scripts to coordinate all that working. Counting sculptmaps, textures, animations and the "oh sh..!" moments from bad uploads I'd have needed to sell 10 of those to even break even on my upload costs, after which I start reaping the rewards for over 700 hours of RL work, a few RL bucks at a time. It's just as well I wasnt trying for a profit, only to break even on my tier and feed my upload and inworld shopping habit.

Medhue is right, folks who are in the business of making anims for SL are WAY underpaid for the amount of work they do. The market simply wont pay them appropriately for the hours they put in, but they still put them in because the good ones wont let a bad anim go out the door with their name on it.

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