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Trix Braveheart

Payment reversed and taken from account by lab

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I have searched for a relevant thread, but, I didn't see one on point.

I cannot imagine that this is the first time this has happened and this seems the most likely forum to have had experience with it. I received the following e-mail

Dear Trix,

We regret to inform you that the party who recently sold you L$ may have
used an unauthorized source to make the purchase from Linden Lab. As a
result of this fraudulent activity, and per the Second Life Terms of
Service, the L$ sent to this account are voided. We have removed 2k linden
sent from:
totaer Resident.

Regards,
Linden Lab


To correct some inaccuracy in the e-mail...I did not purchase Lindens from this person, he paid me for a service. It appears that the lab somehow gave him Lindens and is now claiming that they were fraudulently obtained.

The payment was made to me September 27 and has been reversed from my account today Oct 2. I have read the TOS carefully and can see how they could take this out of my account if they thought I was complicit, but, that isn't what they said. Chat support just suggested that I file an Abuse report or respond to the e-mail (a no-reply e-mail address).

I think we need to be able to rely on the money we receive from people, it's not like we have any way to check whether they are counterfeit Lindens.

My question is...Has anyone else experienced this and how prevalent is it?

Thanks

Trix 

NOTE:  I remember this guy now, I took him to Laqroki for a skin and to Vista for an AO, if he scammed me, he definitely scammed them too. He was looking to make his avatar more attractive, hardly seems the modus of someone who doesn't intend to be back.

 UPDATE

Support responded as follows and closed the case:

"Thank you for contacting Linden Lab. The L$ 2,000 that was sent from totaer Resident originated from a fraudulent method. Therefore, we have voided the transaction and assessed the Lindens. We apologize for any inconvenience that this may have caused."

**************

In other words no explanation, I have asked to have the case reopened and the question answered or escalated...

Thank you Yoshi

What fraudulent method? There are other people possibly involved.
Should we be worried that the Linden method of selling Lindens has been compromised.
I would like an explanation about how this was done (bad credit card, hack, something else?) and to be reassured that it can not happen again. These things are all within the Lab's control. An explanation without the reassurance that steps have been taken hardly seems fair.

This fellow stole from me and others, your recourse seems clear, you know who he is and, if you choose, can pursue him for theft. The rest of us are without any remedy and are the ones who suffered the loss.


If you can not explain please escalate the question.
Thank you

 

 

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I think it means more that that resident (name supplied) gave you the money had obtained it fraudulently

I dont think they meant SOLD YOU

I would start by talking to the resident that gave you the money.. They gave you the name of the fraudulent user.

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Yes, I checked for him first...nails sharpened and out...but, he isn't shown in search anymore...it's one of the things I mentioned to Linden in my Abuse report.

He has ripped off Laqroki and probably Vista as well, they may not know it yet. There was no inwolrd notice to me, just an e-mail and when I looked the money had been taken from my account.

I'm mad because it's almost like they are saying I defrauded them and I have no way back at the guy who did it to me.

There isn't even a method given...is this a big security hole at Linden or a "one off". Neither I nor any other merchant  has a way of knowing when I accept the payment that the money is legit. that's no way to run an economy. 

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The only similar thing that happened to us is when my wife's account was compromised. We reported it within 24 hours and after roughly 48 hours we were refunded only what LL could collect back from the thiefs account and wherever else they could track and retrieve that money in the chain of transactions.

I believe we got about half of it back.

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Trix Braveheart wrote:

I'm mad because it's almost like they are saying I defrauded them and I have no way back at the guy who did it to me.

There isn't even a method given..Is this a big security hole at Linden or a "one off". Neither I nor any other merchant  has a way of knowing when I accept the payment that the money is legit. That's no way to run an economy. 

I can understand how the notice made you feel. I think they could have worded it better. But it just seems like a templated answer they give to everyone . Pretty cheezy

But you have no way of knowing. Even in the real world. If you received money from someone who obtained it fraudulently and they can track it down thru a paper trail. Then you can bet your arse it will be taken back from you and given back to the victim and guess what? You wont get any notice till after they take it back LOL

That's why stores make sure they check for counterfeit bills. Cause they eat that loss if they accept fraudulent money

Sad an unfortunate that we have no way of knowing. It's just the breaks.

 

It used to worry me sometimes when I owned my  club. Some people would drop 10,000 and 20,000 in my donation box. I would cringe a little wondering if the money was fraudulent or not LOL. I have never had any moneys reversed in the 6 years of collecting donations and funds from anyone

 

I did have an experience a long time ago when someone told me they got some money from another account and wanted to give it to me.. I told them to keep it.. It didn't sit right with me

 

The fact that you have not been banned or suspended for the incident is pretty clear they are not holding you responsible for the fraud but only recovering the stolen moneys

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Even the Feds tell you why they are taking the car or the stolen bonds or the horse back. 

I think the point here is the Lab has the recourse and we don't, it's a real life legal one. They should be looking out for us. In this case only merchants lost,

Unless we hold the Lab's feet to the fire they have no downside. We pay, they win.

This is a money issue, small now...but, how many got taken by this guy and how many of his pals? What about the future?

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Trix Braveheart wrote:

Even the Feds tell you why they are taking the car or the stolen bonds or the horse back. 

I think the point here is the Lab has the recourse and we don't, it's a real life legal one. They should be looking out for us. In this case only merchants lost,

Unless we hold the Lab's feet to the fire they have no downside. We pay, they win.

This is a money issue, small now...but, how many got taken by this guy and how many of his pals? What about the future?

I think you're missing the point actually. Yes the feds will tell you why they took the money back, the lab also told you why they took it back. They said they took it back because it was obtained by unauthorized means. That IS the answer as to why. The same thing happens in real life. If someone pays you $2k in rl and the feds later take it away because that person stole the money before giving it to you, do you think you have any recourse to get it all back? If your answer is yes, you are mistaken. You don't really have much recourse and the government is not going to give you that $2k back, it was never intended to be yours in the first place. Sure you could try to sue the guy who paid it to you originally-aka the thief, but I doubt you're going to win. Pretty sure that dude will be tied up in legalities for a good long while anyway, so stand in line, feds go first.

It sucks, and you're not the first person it's happened to. If we can't prevent such things from happening in rl what makes you think a place, like sl, known for anonymity is going to be able to prevent it? You can't hold LL responsible for every single person and every single thing they do. Much as I hate to say it, they did exactly what they should have done. They retrieved the fraudulent monies and likely returned them back to the original owner(or are) they were stolen from to begin with. Doing that does, at times, leave someone holding the bag, or rather leaves someone less than whole. In this case you are out whatever services you offered this person. That's all you are out. Not that your time isn't valuable, or that there should be some monetary value attached that magically makes it a-ok versus absolutely horrible. It sucks no matter the amount, I agree.  But what exactly do you think they should do? Take the money out of nowhere to return it to it's original owner AND let you keep it? That's hardly a good solution.

So what do you propose they do instead? Aside from safeguards to stop this from happening more often-which they do have in place or they never would have caught this in the first place. What do you think would be a better solution?

Their wording is usually pretty bad whe it comes to communication with residents. They tend to use form letters. But you'd likely get the same kind of response in rl too.

I don't understand how you think the lab wins, to be honest. It's not like they said "oh no no no this 2k is ours now, we're keeping it". No, it gets returned to it's rightful owner. If it was obtained by fraudulent use of a CC, it goes back on that CC, or back in that paypal account, or whatever. They do their best to recover whatever they can, and most often it's most if not all of the money, and get it back to it's rightful owner. Put yourself in the place of someone whose money has been stolen, and then later used for whatever purpose the thief wanted. If authorities could get your money back to you, wouldn't you want them to? Or would you say, "no, let the merchant keep it, I don't really need it". I surely wouldn't, at least in most cases. I'd want my money back if they could get it back. Some CC companies and banks will return the money even before it's been returned to them. So in those scenarios, they lose, because they've now made you whole and have to sit on theit thumbs while they're made whole, and they very well may never be made whole. Either way someone in this sort of situation always loses, always. Everyone can't possibly be made whole again. Someone will be pissed.

I've had my account hacked and money stolen once. They weren't able to get it all back to me, only some of it. It sucks. All those merchants and people that thief paid got to keep my hard earned money and I really got stuck being shafted. That feels a hell of a lot worse than being told "sorry we need to take these funds back from you because they weren't ever meant to be yours in the first place, thisguy stole it.". I'd feel hella bad keeping another person's stolen money, personally.

 

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Trix, as Dilbert mentioned, this is an issue that has inhabited my think-space since I first encountered the possibility a long time ago. During my deep reading of the TOS some years back and while reading all the legalese on the various LindeX pages, it dawned on me that any time someone uses a fraudulent method to obtain L$, the ones that will suffer from it are the Merchants and Residents.

Linden Lab may suffer some downside, but they are generally protected as a result of how they allow people to purchase Linden Dollars. The two main avenues are directly from the LindeX or via one of the third-party sources. Ignoring the third-party sources for a moment, allow me to explain how the Lab gets notified and what happens when they encounter a fraudulent purchase of L$.

Step 1: NastyPerson FraudAvi "borrows" a credit card from someone. That can either be one they picked off the various internet scam sites or lifted from a friend/relative. They then use that card to establish payment info and purchase L$ from the LindeX.

Step 2: Linden Lab processes the credit card transaction. Within 30 days (although it may be as long as 180 days depending on the credit processing company) the Lab receives notice that the transaction is invalid and the funds are not being credited to their account. It may also come as a post-dated notice that a prior credit is being reversed because the transaction was disputed or disallowed by the true Credit Card holder. The credit processing company also usually assesses a "Reversal Fee" that may range as high as $100USD for their effort in taking back their money. This fee comes out of the money that Linden Lab receives from all their processed transactions. (They may also in some cases actually debit LL's bank account if there is no credit balance they can deduct the fee from.)

Step 3. Linden Lab must then go back through all the transactions that derived from the denied transaction. If that was simply the purchase of Linden Dollars then they will have to track the next-step destination of each L$ spent from that purchase and take that money back. The tokens (Linden Dollars) that were purchased by NastyPerson FraudAvi were not obtained legally so they technically do not exist. Thus on their books they are simply invalidating bogus tokens.

It is at Step 3 where I have the most issue with Linden Lab. Since the "tokens" have no value, they technically can just ignore them. Sure they were obtained fraudulently, but since they have "no value" then they don't need to invalidate them either. The fact that they DO chase them down and deduct them from other customer's accounts indicates that they DO have value and thus must be chased down and removed.

This is a VERY sticky legal issue that could be raised by a savvy lawyer. I'm not one of those, but I suspect there are some out there that are building up their legal expertise in the issues and laws involved.

The bottom line is .. you got screwed by some guy that used a credit card fraudulently. Linden Lab was who he really screwed, but they have made sure in their TOS and in their actions to pass the screwing down the line to their customers. And THIS is where I really have an issue with the Lab. If they are getting screwed on a routine basis then they need to tighten up their own sales practices .. and take the loss as their own loss, not pass it down to their customers. The percentage of the loss on their income is miniscule; the loss to any one customer can be massive.

But this is yet another example of the "New Math" in business. "All Profits are Ours; All Losses are YOURS!"

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Thank you for the very well reasoned response.

I completely understand, why they took it back, but I would like more than the canned response. I have yet to find one person who has experienced this set of circumstances or this explanation. It truly is hard to get the word out in SL. But, others have said they were hacked or their Lindens were stolen somehow. No one has heard this obtained by fraudulent means argument. SL has an economy based on trust, call them Lindens or tokens, but, if Linden sold them to someone and their own safeguards are faulty, I'd like to know

Some of the people I've discussed it with, would like to know too. Linden, or whomever has suffered the loss here, can have the 2000L, I'll not miss it, but, wouldn't you like to know if this is about to happen more often because of something they're not saying.

I'll get over this and things will return to normal, but, right now I'm looking sideways at every noobie who happens to have money. This guy was a couple of days old and looking to get his avatar prettied up, I was helping.

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Thank you.

If they tell me someone scammed them with a credit card, I'm okay with it. Their answer was typical corporate "evasive speak"...fraudulent means could also mean someone hacked our system. I'm a lot more worried about that.

Excellent explanation

Thanks again

BTW, do you know anyone who has had this whole credit card fraudulent Lindens explanation from the Lab? The response looks canned, but, people I've talked to have never heard it before...that could be a very good thing (meaning it hardly ever happens).

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I've no first-hand experience with anyone in SL that has been scammed like this (touch wood), but I have a LOT of experience with credit card fraud in conjunction with internet services. Back in the day I was a partner in a company that developed and sold online entertainment services. Back then the use of Credit Cards on the 'Net was pretty new and we had a very hard time finding anyone to handle our transactions. The service we eventually would up choosing had a very poor validation process for accepting credit card sales .. and we got screwed routinely because of it. (They also began charging us more in fees than the entire transaction.)

I seriously doubt anyone would get a more in-depth explanation from any authority at the Lab. It is after all a very tender subject and anyone in authority that puts more detail on it would open the Lab up to potential liability in the future. (Not realy, but that's how lawyers think; keep your mouth shut and stay out of potential trouble.)

At least they took the step of emailing you as to why they took the money. As we've seen with the ongoing Listing Enhancements fiasco, sending an email seems to be way beyond their capability in most cases, so it's perhaps a monumental event that they sent you one.

I also know what you mean about "looking with doubt" at every newbie you see. It's a tendency we all share ... to wonder and worry about each new source of liability. And there's where I have another major beef with the Lab. If we felt like they had our back and were doing proactive things to help protect us, that gnawing angst would be greatly lessened. Instead we all operate under the belief that we're all on our own .. and that makes for a VERY standoffish and paranoid virtual existence indeed.

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Trix Braveheart wrote:

Thank you.

If they tell me someone scammed them with a credit card, I'm okay with it. Their answer was typical corporate "evasive speak"...fraudulent means could also mean someone hacked our system. I'm a lot more worried about that.

Excellent explanation

Thanks again

BTW, do you know anyone who has had this whole credit card fraudulent Lindens explanation from the Lab? The response looks canned, but, people I've talked to have never heard it before...that could be a very good thing (meaning it hardly ever happens).

I did say ithat you're not the first person it's happened to. I wasn't sure you'd want exact details though. But I have seen it plenty of times, and even seen it raised in sl forums(maybe not these ones, but ones from years ago). It's not a super common thing, but it definitely does and can happen. The anonymity of sl is what allows it to happen a wee bit easier here than in rl, but if I were a betting person I'd say it probably happens as often in both worlds.

I know the canned responses are stupid, but what company doesn't use them, really? LL is no better, or worse, than any other who does it. Even the feds won't give you detailed info and are likely to give a canned response when/if it happens in rl too. I agree they could phrase things so much better. I've just personally grown used to dealing with businesses and canned responses, form letters and stuff. I probably shouldn't be as accepting of them as I am, but I am.

I've had lindens taken back from me that were handed to me by someone who was "suspected" of obtaining them illegally. Same process happened, pretty much same canned response, but in the end it turned out not to be fraud just a freaky coincidence on the other person's part. So in the end the lindens while not returned to me, they were returned to the one who bought them that was accused of being suspicious, if that makes any sense. Took a good long while though, probably a good month at least. That was years ago.

 

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thanks for passing on the info. It's something we should all get reminders about. That this can happen to anyone.

If it was me, and I lost L$2000 this way. It sounds like a lot of money to lose, but then I would be converting it into rl money in my mind, and then I'd be taking comfort in the fact that it is only $8. And I'd be thinking phew...it could have been a lot worse than losing $8.

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this is 1uv the reasons why it makes no sense to become involved with sl's toy economy .. 1 day it says you have L$ in your account & next day its gone .. youre just SOL .. so why not just play for free have fun & not worrya bout L$ ?? that way you never get ripped off

Jeanne

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JeanneAnne wrote:

this is 1uv the reasons why it makes no sense to become involved with sl's toy economy .. 1 day it says you have L$ in your account & next day its gone .. youre just SOL .. so why not just play for free have fun & not worrya bout L$ ?? that way you never get ripped off

Jeanne

Why don't we all just lock ourselves in our homes, and never go outside, then we have little chance of being hurt in anyway, by anyone?

Just incase someone didn't notice, I'm being sarcastic. Let's see now, I could not participate in the economy and make ZERO, or I could take the tiny, almost insignificant, chance of being burned and make thousands of dollars a month. Hmmm, I'll take my chances. I'll also meet people from around the world, and make a crapload of those people really happy. Oh, and just to let you know Jeanne, some of us enjoy making things AND selling them. Without these 2 things, we'd not be in SL. It is also fair to say that if not for these 2 things, there would be no SL.

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Thanks, yes I realize it's not much money...I think I said that in a couple of responses and you are completely correct...I've lost no sleep over 2000L$ 

And yes, I've mellowed a day in

-but-, I still object to the ridiculously vague notice. I don't expect Linden to give me chapter and verse, but, and I asked them this in my abuse report to them,...was it something as simple as a bad or stolen credit card or something more like a break in their security. 

I truly hope the credit card is the answer, but, we really are all guessing that it wasn't something more dangerous, aren't we?

I take heart in the very reasonable responses here...thank you all

 

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JeanneAnne

Second Life is many things to many people. It is the reason it is so hard to define just what it is.

I love that so many get to have free fun, lots of what I do earns me nothing and costs nothing. But, SL offers so many other opportunites as well, I and many others get incredible satisfaction out of creating. There are many creative people (not me so much, blush) who use this and even the commerce as an outlet for those energies.

I've tilted at this Linden windmill for about as long as I care to. /me puts down her torch and pitchfork and turns her back on Governor Lindens estate.

 

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Trix Braveheart wrote:

JeanneAnne

Second Life is many things to many people. It is the reason it is so hard to define just what it is.

I love that so many get to have free fun, lots of what I do earns me nothing and costs nothing. But, SL offers so many other opportunites as well, I and many others get incredible satisfaction out of creating. There are many creative people (not me so much, blush) who use this and even the commerce as an outlet for those energies.

I've tilted at this Linden windmill for about as long as I care to. /me puts down her torch and pitchfork and turns her back on Governor Lindens estate.

 

yeah Trix .. i admire the creativity ppl exhibit in sl .. & honor it .. its just the economic aspect of buying & selling code for virtual objects that rubs me the wrong way .. i love sl very much but dont have a great deal of respect for LL management .. to put it mildly .. i dont trust them & dont want to contribute to their bottom line if i dont hav2 .. but to each his or her own! best wishes

Jeanne

 

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JeanneAnne, don't forget that the one "Industry" with the highest growth rate in the past .. well, forever .. has been the Knowledge Industry. For years the world's economy was based on what could be made. However in the last century the world's economy has been shifting more toward one based on what you know. Intelligence, the knowledge of what to do, how to do it and, most importantly WHY to do it, is an asset that not only has no forseeable limit but also can be created without the necessity of vast stocks beforehand. Even the poorest of people with no physical assets and no history can "invent" an idea and virtually overnight dominate an entire market. Information is the ultimate level playing field that offers a path to the very top to anyone at any time.

So before you pooh-pooh "selling code for virtual objects" .. just remember that it is the selling, controlling and monetizing of information that will ultimately advance all of the human race to the top of the survival peak.

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Darrius Gothly wrote: ...that will ultimately advance all of the human race to the top of the survival peak.

theres 7.2 billion ppl on a biosphere that could sustainably support ~.2 billion sans fossil fuel inputs .. & you want to >>..advance all of the human race to the top of the survival peak<< ?!?! you know what happens to populations that exceed the carrying capacity of their environment dont you ?? they collapse .. & the more they exceed K the harder they collapse & the more they diminish K for any survivors

Jeanne

 

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JeanneAnne wrote:


Darrius Gothly wrote: ...that will ultimately advance all of the human race to the top of the survival peak.

theres 7.2 billion ppl on a biosphere that could sustainably support ~.2 billion sans fossil fuel inputs .. & you want to >>..advance all of the human race to the top of the survival peak<< ?!?! you know what happens to populations that exceed the carrying capacity of their environment dont you ?? they collapse .. & the more they exceed K the harder they collapse & the more they diminish K for any survivors

Jeanne 

The calculation of this planet supporting perhaps 2 billion while it now reasonably sustains 3 times that many can be accomplished not because we're overtaxing our resources, but because we've become smarter about how we use the resources. Without the "smarts" to use what we have properly, we would have run out of non-renewables a long time ago. But we did get smarter, and we have used things more wisely, and as time goes forward we will continue to use what little we have left in ever smarter ways.

Yes, I want the human population to advance to the top of the peak. I also believe we can advance there. And in the process we won't be the only species that has risen to that perch.

You may be pessimistic about our future Jeanne, but I remain optimistic. We have faced many challenges as a species and overcome them all so far. Turning our backs on the miracle of human ingenuity and intelligence, consigning the entire race to a future of imminent and unavoidable destruction is to ignore the evidence of our accomplishments to date.

The mere fact that I still draw breath is a personal miracle that would never have happened without the wonder of human creativity and intelligence. For that and many other reasons I refuse to give up on Our future. Perhaps you have, and if so then I am sorry you will not be able to rejoice as we face and overcome the hurdles along our path. But I have not ever allowed a foot-dragger to limit my own accomplishments ... and I seriously doubt humanity as a whole will allow even a whole nation's worth of them to stop us succeeding overall.

Cheers!

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>>The calculation of this planet supporting perhaps 2 billion while it now reasonably sustains 3 times that many...<<

read more carefully .. i didnt say that K was 2 billion .. i said that K is 0.2 billion or 200 million .. this is how many ppl Jörð's biosphere could support sustainably & indefinitely ~give or take a few 10s of millions~ w/out long term degradation of K

>>..we've become smarter about how we use the resources.<<

are you kiddin me ?!?! we are anything besides "smart" about how we use resources .. we waste them profligately .. & we are poisoning the atmosphere & surface ocean w/ oxidized carbon in the process

>>You may be pessimistic about our future Jeanne, but I remain optimistic.<<

optimism & pessimism are the 2 poles of a continuum .. if you can tell me which pole is which i will regard you as a wise person

>>..consigning the entire race to a future of imminent and unavoidable destruction is to ignore the evidence of our accomplishments to date.<<

our accomplishments to date ?!?! superstitious religiosity including human & other animal sacrifice? slavery? the genocide of the Native Americans & Australian Aboriginals? the nuclear bombardmant of Japan? destruction of entire ecosystems & biomes? precipitation of the 6th great mass extinction episode of the Phanerozoic ?!?!

>>The mere fact that I still draw breath...<< is cuz your parents had sex & nothing has killed you yet .. but something will .. & then this glorious future in store for MANkind you so hubristically crow about will be lost to you .. youll be dead & never know that human population has collapsed towards extinction as the anthropogenically ravished biosphere & biodiversity slowly begins to recover

Jeanne

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LOL Wow! Whomever pissed in your cornflakes did a real good job. Welcome to the bleakness of your own future Jeanne. I, for one, am very glad we do not live in the same reality.

Cheers!

ETA: You are correct. I didn't see the decimal point before the "2". My bad .. sowwy!

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JeanneAnne wrote:


Darrius Gothly wrote: ...that will ultimately advance all of the human race to the top of the survival peak.

theres 7.2 billion ppl on a biosphere that could sustainably support ~.2 billion sans fossil fuel inputs .. & you want to >>..advance all of the human race to the top of the survival peak<< ?!?! you know what happens to populations that exceed the carrying capacity of their environment dont you ?? they collapse .. & the more they exceed K the harder they collapse & the more they diminish K for any survivors

Jeanne

 

There is no doubt that many collapses are coming. The reasons have nothing at all to do with peak oil or other such mainstream media BS. Governments and oppression are the reasons. If you actually do real research, you will quickly find out that all of the waste and abusive of resources is directly caused by government intervention. This is not a political ideology or opinion, it's a fact. Even the notion of overpopulation is total BS that the media likes to scare people with, despite every major economic country declining in population massively.

If the people of the world did not have governments using their various tools to control everything, we'd have innovation on a unprecidented scale. Heck, just eliminating all taxation of income would create such a boom that gas would instantly become a none issue in everyone's lives. Plus, we'd have peace around the world with little to no actual conflicts, as the evil people of the world would no longer have the resources to wage war. All government policies are about controlling the markets and their people. Not 1 policy has anything at all to do with helping people, only enslaving them. From patents, to gas taxes, it is all about control and oppression.

SL alone should show the world that totally free markets can save humanity. Will there be theft, or crime? Of course, but actually less than we have now, and no 1 entity would be able to act without consequences. In a totally free market, everything is voluntary and without coersion. Government is, by it's very definition, force, as none of their policies can be enforced without the threat of violence. When the world wakes up from this nightmare, they will hopefully see that we have no use for national governments anymore.

 You should seriously read up on eugenics, because you are spouting their ideology, which are embedded in every part of our current paradyme. Most of what you will learn in school, comes directly from eugenics, just masked with fake science. It's all propaganda with no actual scientific evidence. When you research things, if you even do, you don't take highly paid government employees word for it. What you should do is actually analyze the studies and research that they cite. Once you do that, and understand a little about the scientific method, you will see quite clearly that it is all total and complete BS.

 

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