maxmady Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 When I first started out as a merchant on the marketplace I found that noone bothered to review my products even though I was selling tons of them. I even got some rival merchants posting negative reviews deliberately (like I would get several in a row in a totally obvious way lol).Anyway I learned recently that it's perfectly acceptable in the TOS to reward customers for leaving reviews as long as you don't require them to leave positive ones. So recently I found while searching on the marketplace that there was a service that AUTOMATICALLY REWARDS people for leaving reviews. You can find it quite easily on there. I wonder what people think about this? Really interested to see what people think of my new marketing strategy!Personally I think it is a great idea! Now I can get my products established really quickly and without any problems! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginger Fanshaw Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 I think it's a great idea and will implement myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deja Letov Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 I just posted about that system yesterday in one of the other review threads. I'd be curious as well to see how many people start using a system like that. I'm not opposed to using it exactly, unfortunately I would consider it gaming the marketplace and an unfair advantage over other merchants who don't pay for legitimate reviews...but then again it's all about profit to most so I'm sure it's acceptable. But I will systems like that are exactly why I don't bother reading reviews anymore...since so many are apparently there only because they are paid to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryLow Kappler Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Dubious practice to game the marketplace, however gaming the MP is allowed by LL so feel free to do what you want. But I would consider paying money for something that isn't relevant for the majority of customers. Most do not read reviews as well as they don’t write any, so why paying to get any? And hundreds of bogus reviews will definitely not increase sales. So there are no good reasons why to do it. It’s actually a waste of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleyman Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 LarryLow Kappler wrote: Dubious practice to game the marketplace, however gaming the MP is allowed by LL so feel free to do what you want. But I would consider paying money for something that isn't relevant for the majority of customers. Most do not read reviews as well as they don’t write any, so why paying to get any? And hundreds of bogus reviews will definitely not increase sales. So there are no good reasons why to do it. It’s actually a waste of money. Actually Larry I have to politely disagree with you on that one. Reviews affect marketplace ranking. And actually someone is far more likely to buy something if it has a review than if it doesn't. Countless times I have passed up on buying something because it did not have a review to say that it was an decent product. Plus I am not sure that this is bogus reviews they are talking about here. I mean, one of the nice things in sl is that people do have morals about what they are doing for the most part. I will certainly be trying this with my store! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryLow Kappler Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Torleyman wrote: LarryLow Kappler wrote: Dubious practice to game the marketplace, however gaming the MP is allowed by LL so feel free to do what you want. But I would consider paying money for something that isn't relevant for the majority of customers. Most do not read reviews as well as they don’t write any, so why paying to get any? And hundreds of bogus reviews will definitely not increase sales. So there are no good reasons why to do it. It’s actually a waste of money. Actually Larry I have to politely disagree with you on that one. Reviews affect marketplace ranking. And actually someone is far more likely to buy something if it has a review than if it doesn't. Countless times I have passed up on buying something because it did not have a review to say that it was an decent product. Plus I am not sure that this is bogus reviews they are talking about here. I mean, one of the nice things in sl is that people do have morals about what they are doing for the most part. I will certainly be trying this with my store! The next ALT who has no MP Store wants to try it? Why aren't you posting with your main avi? Afraid? Hey this would be a very good chance to advertise your store but you're posting with an alt ? Very odd! To your answer, you cannot prove the way how reviews affect the rankings, nobody can, unless you know LL's secret relevancy formula! Of course they affect rankings in any way BUT not like "The more reviews the better ranking". That is definitely not the case. So I give nothing on your reasons. And that you only buy items with reviews is your thing, most customers do not care. But as i said: It's your decision and i respect the decision. But i have my own opinion, so deal with it! And If you have the money to give away, then do! And here some Info from good old Real Life. In many countries in the world it’s actually decided by the courts that rewards for reviews are NOT permitted by law. And that’s a fact! The reason for this is the Reward itself that will encourage people to leave rather a positive review, and this is in quite a few countries against the law. So, happy LL that there is obviously not such a law in california.. PS: Even if it's allowed by LL, it's at least morally wrong, so please don't tell me about morals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleyman Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 LarryLow Kappler wrote: PS: Even if it's allowed by LL, it's at least morally wrong, so please don't tell me about morals! Larry your profile states: "On the move! Got a lot to do detecting thieves. My clients are mostly merchants and creators, But feel free to IM me." Sounds like you've got some skin in the game to me..... Posting out of financial interest by any chance? Maybe this disrupts/negates your business in some way? Morals? :matte-motes-delicious: :matte-motes-bashful-cute::matte-motes-kiss::matte-motes-yawn: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryLow Kappler Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Torleyman wrote: LarryLow Kappler wrote: PS: Even if it's allowed by LL, it's at least morally wrong, so please don't tell me about morals! Larry your profile states: "On the move! Got a lot to do detecting thieves. My clients are mostly merchants and creators, But feel free to IM me." Sounds like you've got some skin in the game to me..... Posting out of financial interest by any chance? Maybe this disrupts/negates your business in some way? Morals? :matte-motes-delicious: :matte-motes-bashful-cute::matte-motes-kiss::matte-motes-yawn: Oh well, i am detecting thieves my friend, since 2007.. BUT i do it for free. And that's why i have good contacts with a lot of merchants and creators in SL. So... again.. i give nothing on your reasons since you have no courage to post with your main avi. So i'm not longer talking to You! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Gorky Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 I've been doing business in SL for 8 years now and learned pretty quickly that the various systems which support our virtual commerce are flawed and open to exploitation by it's users. I've gamed dwell, traffic, search, picks, classifieds and MP reviews, all to varying levels of success across a variety of business types. I didn't do it because I enjoy cheating or for any other nefarious reason. I did it because lots of other people did it, and not doing would it have put me at a disadvantage. People game the system in SL. You need to accept this as a fact of doing business in SL and then use it to your advantage. Some people may view any form of gaming the system in SL as cheating and acting morally wrong, but merchants who adopt this type of attitude will find it to be a detriment to their business because the majority of the competition will not feel the same way. Some of the systems in place in SL have been severely lacking over the years, most notably inworld search, especially in the last 4 or 5 years. There have been times when inworld search has come close to become almost functional, but that has only been because us merchants game the bejesuz out it resulting in a better chance that search will actually deliver some relevant results. I think paying for reviews is the lamest form of gaming we have seen yet and learned pretty quickly that it can be of a detriment to your business. Allot of the people who take payment for these reviews leave generic short reviews that are obviously fake. As more and more people become aware of the fake sounding reviews on the MP they may avoid your products all together as they may feel they cannot trust any of the generic sounding reviews that your listings may have. Getting the auto reviewer will result in getting crappy generic "OMG it's awesome" type reviews. You should take a more hands on approach, You see a customer buy something on the MP and they don't leave a review then contact them directly inworld. Tell them you are trying to boost your profile on the MP and would greatly appreciate it if they could leave you some feedback on there if they could spare the time. To show your appreciation you can offer them a little freebie item. This works great. You are still effectively paying (or bribing) for reviews, but because you engage with the customer directly before hand I find they put allot more effort into writing a constructive review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torleyman Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Actually my sales have gone up about 300% since using these services. It's within the TOS and whatever you may think about it these are real players leaving their opinions on my products. Frankly I will take that over armies of alts and rival merchants any day of the week! Not a perfect world? I suggest you re-enter the womb where it is safe and warm lol! :matte-motes-sunglasses-3: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryLow Kappler Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Torleyman 84 days old - Maxmady 87 days old Both empty, Both started here today?! . well, I don’t believe in coincidences. Finally we know why he didn’t post with the main avi. But I think everyone can imagine now who he is :matte-motes-sunglasses-3: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paula001 Goldschein Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 who cares who is who? every avatar/account is an alt when it comes to our rl avatar.. opinions don't count more or less posted with a (which seems to you) main or alt account, that account could actually be the alt account of the 3rd and actual main account ;p and so on lol what counts is what is allowed by tos .. within those borders, sell and let sell? i have never agreed with this exception of gaming sales rank (believing that number of reviews influence it), but noone cares so .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spica Inventor Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 I think L.L. should take a 10% + cut in marketplace sales and then refund 5% of that to the customer if he comes back and leaves a review. That should delute the phony reviews a fair amount. ;-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryLow Kappler Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Paula001 Goldschein wrote: who cares who is who? every avatar/account is an alt when it comes to our rl avatar.. Yes you're right, who cares who is who :smileyvery-happy: But i would consider posting here a serious answer any longer since the only intention for the topic creator was to advertise the services here. Yeah topics in the forums can also be faked. See the best example here. Some would call this stupid others call it hidden advertising. Come on, recap the topic: Avatar 1, empty profile alt, 87 days old says: "Hey there is a great service available you can find it easily on the marketplace.......It's perfectly acceptable in the TOS.......It's great .... " And once it comes to critical words then it's time for Avatar 2 (Same person as Avatar 1, empty profile alt, 84 days old) to defend it and saying that he will certainly be trying this with his store. And later in the thread suddenly the sales have gone up 300% ? So what now? I thought he will be trying it first?? Another friendly "it's within the TOS" has been placed... And last but not least this person is not able to take any criticism. Seriously, this HIGH percentage of more sales because of a few more reviews is very unrealistic.. And talking about such a high percentage in the public is rather a popular method to trick people. So don't be fooled.. 300% sounds much but when you sell 4 products instead of 1 then you have also 300% more sales. All in all not provable if it's because reviews or other factors! But i doubt that he did the maths since the only intention was to advertise the service here. LL could moderate now and close/delete this thread because it's obviously faked, but i doubt they will do. I only posted my opinion and respect others and for me it's all said now That's why i'm not longer available in this thread. But as the previous speaker says: Who cares Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonGklugelstein Alter Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 LarryLow Kappler wrote: Torleyman 84 days old - Maxmady 87 days old Both empty, Both started here today?! . well, I don’t believe in coincidences. Finally we know why he didn’t post with the main avi. But I think everyone can imagine now who he is :matte-motes-sunglasses-3: LOL - check these reviews out... and there are many more.... I love raving reviews left on the Born on date! Looks 100% realistic Posted July 03, 2012 by maxmady 5 stars Tiled seamlessly and they look completely realistic and professionally made! 10/10 fabulous!! Great building kit! Posted July 03, 2012 by maxmady 5 stars These allowed me to put together an awesome texture map for my mesh handbag that I was making! Simply amazingly realistic looking and the background texture tiles seamlessly but looks like real worn leather! Looked great in my office Posted July 03, 2012 by maxmady 5 stars These carpets are really great looking. I will use them in my main store too. Great professional textures ) Great looking texture Posted July 03, 2012 by maxmady 5 stars Really good value texture from a professional texture maker )) excellent 10/10 Perfect traditional looking wallpapers Posted July 03, 2012 by maxmady 5 stars Looked fabulous in my mansion! 10/10 ) general purpose mosaic tiles Posted July 03, 2012 by maxmady 5 stars Great for the modern builds that I am working on 10/10 love it ) Warm lovely tiles Posted July 03, 2012 by maxmady 5 stars I loved these they added a nice warm feeling to my balconies! You can zoom right in and you just get more and more detail with these ) GREAT texture maker! Posted July 06, 2012 by Torleyman 5 stars Mark you are an awesome texture maker thank you so much for this! Really great product and good value too! BEST texture maker ever! Posted July 06, 2012 by Torleyman 5 stars Mark you are the best texture maker ever keep up the good work. Always check your store when I need something for my builds! est texture maker out there! Posted July 06, 2012 by Torleyman 5 stars I always look to use marks textures in my designs because they are easily the best available in second life!! Great texture designer!! Posted July 06, 2012 by Torleyman 5 stars I always use marks textures in my builds if I have the choice!! Never disappoints me and always great value! Excellent product well worth it Posted August 10, 2012 by Torleyman 5 stars Really loved these floors. It's a pity they don't have bump mapping yet as it would look even better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rya Nitely Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Customers are not stupid. Not only are us merchants aware of gaming, customers can smell it too. It has a very distinct and offensive smell. OK you might get a naive newb now and then who does not recognise the stench, but that's not enough to make a difference. A big risk in paying for reviews, or even asking for them, is that an honest customer might just say something like this - 'I love this item, so when the seller asked me to review it I had no hesitation. I would have rated it 5 stars even without the reward'. I've seen reviews like this out there. One review like that would discredit all the others. If people feel the need to pay for reviews or game the system it's because their products aren't good enough to sell by themselves. So in the long run you will fail anyway. Success comes from a long history of selling high quality items - word of mouth, consistency, good customer service, honesty, and last but not least - hard work. Today I have spent 8 hours learning how to make mesh items, and that continues on from yesterday and I will be at it again tomorrow. This is what will pay off in the long run - not gaming machines. Gamers are no threat to me, and I'll never have a need to join them. So let them game away - makes nought difference. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Gorky Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Rya Nitely wrote: A big risk in paying for reviews, or even asking for them, is that an honest customer might just say something like this - 'I love this item, so when the seller asked me to review it I had no hesitation. I would have rated it 5 stars even without the reward'. I've seen reviews like this out there. One review like that would discredit all the others. If people feel the need to pay for reviews or game the system it's because their products aren't good enough to sell by themselves. So in the long run you will fail anyway. Success comes from a long history of selling high quality items - word of mouth, consistency, good customer service, honesty, and last but not least - hard work. I game the system but I also provide good customer service, am honest in my dealings with customers and work hard. I would also disagree with your opinion that in the long run gamers will fail anyway. I have been drawing a profit from SL longer than nearly anyone else here. You need to selectively game so that customers either do not notice it, or so that it is subtle enough that it doesn't bother them. Allot of the time people classify all gaming as being bad. But there are different levels to gaming amd each type of gaming should be judged accordingly. So for example gaming inworld traffic is allot different to gaming inworld search. Gaming traffic numbers is blatantly dishonest. You are tricking the customer into thinking that more people visit your land than they really do. Compare that to gaming inworld search. People with long established businesses find themselves buried in the search results after an update. Their only hope of climbing back up the search rankings is through gaming. Work out whatever the whacko formula that LL are using for search that week and then exploit that knowledge to get yourself back on page 1. Say for example that me rezzing a thousand prims with the keyword "house" puts me back on page 1. I sell houses so I am not lying, I also had one of the largest collections of houses so surely I deserve to be one page 1? search does not think so. If someone typed "House" into search all it displays (in this example) are clubs playing house music. So the only way us merchants can fix the results displayed in inworld search and make them more relevant is through gaming. But there are lines here that can be crossed too. Keyword stuffing for types of items that I don't sell for example. That I would consider dishonest gaming and it should be judged accordingly. So lets get down to paying for reviews and find out where the dishonest line is. So a customer buys a product on the MP without any prompting from the merchant. They don't leave a review. If you contact that customer and pay or bribe them into leaving an honest review then that I see that as OK gaming. You are effectively paying them for the time they would need to spend logging in, find the product to review and then writing the review. Now if when you contacted that customer and they did not like the product but you paid them anyway into writing a favorable review then that would be dishonest gaming IMO and not okay. If you pay someone to buy your product just so they can review it then that is not OK either. So paying or bribing someone to incentivise them into leaving a genuine review is just good business. Paying them to lie is bad business. So you should not be tarring all gamers with the same brush. Some of us game as a way of best utilizing the systems in place to conduct commerce. Not all of us are out to cheat or deceive people, we just want to get the exposure that we feel we deserve after putting in all that hard work that you were talking about earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rya Nitely Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Porky, I know that you are honest (or else you wouldn't admit to gaming), and that you believe what you do is fair and right. But this is how I see it. If my items lost ranking through the fault of the system then I would want to think that it's a level playing field and everyone is in the same boat. What you are doing is clearing the hurdles to ensure your horse wins the race, while the rest of us are making the effort to keep things fair by trying to jump over them. One scenario you didn't use in your response is this - what happens if a customer you contact says 'Well, actually I wasn't happy with that item. I won't be using it...waste of money......poor quality blah blah'. Would you or other gamers then say ' Could you please write a review saying that, and I will give you a reward'. This may never have happened to you, but what would you do? I'm pretty sure that such a customer would no longer be encouraged to write a review. Not only that, but most people would feel crappy taking a reward to write a negative review. So rewarding negative reviews is something that is unlikely to happen either because the customer wouldn't want to do it or because the merchant will bypass this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 I agree with Porky. All of us are free to offer a reward for a review, if we want to spend the time adding that to listings and making payments (or using the automatic thing) -- as long as you offer for good and bad reviews. I would do it but I am just too lazy. Also, I did place a note in two or three new mesh items as an experiement and I got two whole reviews out of it, so apparently my customers don't care much. Also since the listing has the note there for everyone to read, it's not exactly a secret that any reviews were paid for. Since everyone has the same opportunity then as far as I am concerned the field is level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Yes every listing has two glowing reviews, both on the same day! That just screams: My stuff is crap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 I hate all these business games, and am too lazy to participate in most, or maybe just sick of it all.Rya your creations are really good, and you should be making more money (I remember you saying awhile back that you weren't).What about just messaging a customer and asking if they'd leave an honest review - don't even offer a reward, and make sure you explain that you want the review to be honest with both positive and negative (if any) aspects of your creation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Luna since it costs the buyer time to make a review, and is no benefit to himself but to the seller only, I think it is not only reasonable but preferable to offer to compensate him. I am a very big believer in compensating people for their time -- or at least offering to, and letting them make an offer to do it for free if they like. I strongly disapprove of asking ppl to donate their time or property for the sole purpose of benefitting the asker (as opposed to charity). That is called begging, and it goes on in SL too often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 So far I've never felt comfortable asking a customer to do anything for me without giving something in return, and the few times I tried this technique I always gave a reward. I was mainly offering that suggestion to Rya since he didn't feel comfortable offering a payment for reviews and considered that 'gaming'. However, what I discovered was that when I offered rewards some customers said 'oh Luna you don't need to give me anything to do that - I'm happy to review it'. Many just didn't know it was important for merchants or even know the process for leaving a review. I might try requesting a review from certain customers without offering compensation in the future though - customers that have been purchasing from me for a long time for example, or customers that needed a lot of time/assistance from me.I look at my loyal customers more as 'friends' and don't have as much professional distance from them, and so don't consider requesting a review as 'begging'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Pamela Galli wrote: Luna since it costs the buyer time to make a review, and is no benefit to himself but to the seller only, I think it is not only reasonable but preferable to offer to compensate him. I am a very big believer in compensating people for their time -- or at least offering to, and letting them make an offer to do it for free if they like. I strongly disapprove of asking ppl to donate their time or property for the sole purpose of benefitting the asker (as opposed to charity). That is called begging, and it goes on in SL too often. I do not see this as being as harsh and polarized as you are posting this. To me, if a customer is asked / reminded to post a review by a merchant - especially as part of the merchant issuing a post-purchase "customer satisfaction" communication then it is still up to the customer if he/she executes or not. You are confusing a Merchant simply mentioning a suggestion to rate and review vs the true definition of "begging". If a merchant contacts their customers and persistently pleads with customers to rate/review (i.e. with a tone of pleading or by followup contacts if the customer does execute) - this is begging and i would agree with you. But I see nothing wrong reminding a customer if they could if when they have a chance. Personally - I am not sure if SL Customers generally are influenced by the heavily gamed MP rating / review system but I have long given up trying to get my customers to go back and rate / review. I have found it a waste of time... its like urinating into the ocean on the impact it has. I get a lot of customers that contact me by IM telling me how much they love my products.... I used to say thank you and if you really do like what you bought - please go back and rate. But almost none do. So I stopped wasting my breath. Contrarily - if you are "compensating" a customer for making a review / rating... even if you dont tell them to rate favorably... it is still a form of subtle implied bribery. So as much as you might beleive asking without compensation is begging... most would say that asking with compensation is bribing. People can see this both ways Pam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Followup.... on my statement that compensating customers to simply take the time to rate & review regardless of their rate or review being positive or negative..... Some merchants will disagree with me that its a form of bribing. First of all I would state that I am not against merchants compensating to encourage customers to rate/review... I am just saying that it clearly falls into an implied bribe. Why? Let me challenge any of you Merchants that do not think its a bribe.... Lets say you are offering a 100L gift certificate to customers everytime they file a rate & review on your MP store items that they bought. Now lets say that 2 months later you are noticing that 80% of the time when customers do take up your offer and they file a rating on your product - that its always a 1 - 2 - 3 rating. Or lets say most of them are leaving reviews that your product is OK or not that great or overpriced or service wasnt great or whatever.... Would you continue to "compensate" all your customers to file ratings and reviews? Hmmm - I dont know about you ... but I sure would be stopping the "compensating" practice. As such, you are only compensating in the expectation that for the most part you are going to get POSITIVE results. You are bribing - since you would likely stop compensating if all your efforts generate poor rates and reviews. That is my thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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