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BIG DAY TODAY, passenger number 200,000 riding my vehicles.


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Zaphod Kotobide wrote:

[...] and since I use the roads often, they do get in my way and they actually, despite what you say, impede movement at times. 

Did she say that? They definitely impede movement every time you come across them when driving along the road. I prefer the word 'disrupt' to 'impede' though. They get in the way and often cause manned vehicles to leave the road, simply because it's not especially easy to keep a vehicle on the road and ecountering one of those auto-vehicles causes dispruption. They are a total nuisance and they are never a welcome sight to road travellers. They should be banned for disrupting actual road users. The only upside about them is watching them struggle. That can be quite amusing.

I think it was Qie who mentioned another set of auto-vehicles - the round(ish) ones. They are good and don't impede anyone because they are above the road and phantom, so they can be ignored when encountering them, unlike AnnMarie's poor stuff, that push people off the road, and even back across sim borders if you're not very careful. It's ridiculously stupid stuff. The very least that AnnMarie can do is make them phantom so they don't distrupt road users, but I guess that was too difficult a concept to come up with.

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THERE IS BUG IN SL.  ON MANY PARCELS THE NO-ENTRY FUNCTION IS NOT WORKING all the time.

I SPEND UP TO AN HOUR A DAY VISITING TROUBLE SPOTS TO REMOVE VEHICLES THAT HAVE ENTERED A NO-ENTRY PARCEL AND GOT STUCK WITH A NO-SCRIPT.

Do not rely on no-entry to stop objects coming on your land.  I've worked with Maestro Linden to diagnose this bug and although I can reproduce it hundreds of times a day and although the problem has been tracked down to a particular script instruction, it only fails about 1 time in 100 or more tries on average depending on the parcel.  Why some parcels are particularly vunerable has eluded analysis so far.  This frequency is apparently low enough that so far there is no action to correct it.
 

If this were the same problem, I imagine you'd have noticed the pattern, but just in case:

There is very definitely a bug with parcel permissions applying to physical vehicles just after crossing a sim border.

Back in 2010, you reported what may have been a variant of this bug.

Last year, Kitto Flora's GSLR trains started hitting it, and he tracked it down to the parcel permissions on the other side of the just-departed sim applying when entering the new sim.

A little later, I noticed it myself, also observing that a rider of such a physical vehicle will see that other parcel's name appear briefly in the viewer's navbar.

I half suspect this may also be the problem underlying a brief flash of prims from the other side of the departed sim, just when crossing the border, with no vehicle involved. (That's currently considered a viewer bug, even by Firestorm devs, but I'm not so sure).

If it were me spending an hour a day (and if the affected parcels are usually near region borders), I'd sure try flipping the vehicles to non-physical during region crossings, just until the script was confidently in the new region.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

The very least that AnnMarie can do is make them phantom so they don't distrupt road users, but I guess that was too difficult a concept to come up with.


 

is a deliberate choice not to make them phantom

the omt vehicles will attempt to go round. but if they cant then they will start pushing you. if after a few minutes they cant do that then they will try to fly over. they used to fly up quite high to do this. now they only lift up a tiny bit. so they can run over the top off you

they don't have to push or run you over. they could easy be made to go phantom on contact/collison. they don't tho

this a reflection on the behavioral characteristics of kiddie scripters when they choose to make stuff this way. we are what we make and all that

 

 

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AnnMarie Otoole wrote:

HUH?  The ice cream truck is not on your land.  What is your problem? 

Who elected you the sidewalk police?  Go mind your own business. 

 

I think your vehicles are a pain, but being such a minor member of Second Life I've contented myself with just mentioning that now and then. You've given me something to work with with this comment.

Who elected YOU to populate Linden roads with vehicles?

If your last name was Linden, I'd just shrug off the fact your stupid cars can run over me or or shoot me or push me around. I'd say to myself, "Hey. They built it. It's their place. Live with it." But your last name is not Linden. Do you have some special permission from LDPW to add cars to their roads? If so, where I can I find that documented? If not, get off your high (trojan) horse when people complain.

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AnnMarie Otoole wrote:

Didn't your mama tell you to be careful if you play on the road?  Stand there long enough and you will be hit (gently).

THERE IS BUG IN SL.  ON MANY PARCELS THE NO-ENTRY FUNCTION IS NOT WORKING all the time.

I SPEND UP TO AN HOUR A DAY VISITING TROUBLE SPOTS TO REMOVE VEHICLES THAT HAVE ENTERED A NO-ENTRY PARCEL AND GOT STUCK WITH A NO-SCRIPT.

Do not rely on no-entry to stop objects coming on your land.  I've worked with Maestro Linden to diagnose this bug and although I can reproduce it hundreds of times a day and although the problem has been tracked down to a particular script instruction, it only fails about 1 time in 100 or more tries on average depending on the parcel.  Why some parcels are particularly vunerable has eluded analysis so far.  This frequency is apparently low enough that so far there is no action to correct it.

Until it is fixed there are a number of things you can do.

1. Turn on auto return.

2. Leave scripts turned on so they can get back to the road.

3. Send me an IM with the problem location and it will be put on our watch list and cleared at least once a day.

4. Report the problem to the Lindens to increase awareness to get this bug fixed.

 

5. actual script your vehicles so they don't actual ever run off the road

6. actual create a AI that can actual learn from its environment. like can know that it is a actual truck and knows that it shouldn't be driving along on the sea 

7. actual create a AI that is courteous to other road users and don't treat them as enemies. like not try to push them out the way

8. actual stop running your vehicles in areas where is known problems beyond your level of coding understanding

9.  actual understand that your AI algos are dumb as. and your lack of coding skills reflects this

10. actual get over the idea that you somehow helping linden

 

 

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Zaphod Kotobide wrote:
Report Abuse > Disturbing the peace > Object littering

No, it's not on my land, but I still have to look at it every time I log in.

Yup.  I just filed an AR on a Trojan Horse stuck in Linden ocean waters, as the big wooden horse was right off the edge of my property.   It's object littering, plain and simple.  What I don't understand is why LL is still allowing one or two people to litter and cause grief all over the grid this way.  

(For a couple of years I owned land in SL in various mainland areas.  Each time I bought a parcel, soon after one of these vehicles would start making frequent trips down roads nearby, and getting stuck, etc.  It was driving me nuts.  But, just recently I thought I try again, so went premium.  I found a little parcel of land near some Linden waters, and not close to any roads.   But, I'll be damned!  There was a Trojan Horse stuck in the water right next to my parcel?! )

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1.: It's ugly as hell,
2.: It's dirty,
3.: It does use up resources, scripts running or not.

My patience is starting to wear thin. I used to notify you out of courtesy, but if you don't get the programming fixed to prevent being run over and object littering, I will start to AR these things instead. If ARs start piling up, your luck could run out rather quickly.

Clarification for the others here: I don't have a problem with automated vehicles. Actually I like to see some automated traffic on the roads. But the key points are: No littering, stay on the road, be fully phantom, have WORKING clean-up-scripts. The Yavascript-Pods fulfill all four points. The same is true for the Jer Straaf-cabs running in the 'Something'-Sims. AnnMarie's abominations don't even get one of the points right.

By the way, when I returned to SL last year after a long hiatus, I rode a few times in a black Ferrari, it was one of the self search variant, but much better programmed. It never strayed off the road and I haven't seen one stranded anywhere.
So -despite AnnMarie's claims- It can be done. Sadly, the Ferraris seem to be gone.

 

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As "littering" goes, I could show you some Mainland that puts to shame any pile-up of automated vehicles. Just try getting any action on those ARs. :smileytongue:

Thinking about this clutter problem a bit, and you know, I'm not sure why the vehicles don't include a more effective self-destruct mechanism. I hate to suggest yet another script, but if there are any scripts that currently lack a timer() handler, it would be so trivial: set some interval, like 15 minutes, at state_entry and in changed(CHANGED_REGION), and if the timer ever fires, llDie().

Of course this wouldn't work when the vehicle gets stranded on no-script land, but the majority of clutter vehicles I've encountered still have running scripts and can sometimes be freed just by sitting on them (so some of those 200,000 rides were me, trying to break one of them free), so those could self-destruct, no problem.

For the ones stranded on no-script land, I wonder about having some vehicles run active sensor scans for stranded vehicles. I wouldn't want to run sensors on every vehicle all the time, but dispatching an occasional garbage-collection mission could locate them for manual deletion before they create so much annoyance.

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Qie Niangao wrote: "As "littering" goes, I could show you some Mainland that puts to shame any pile-up of automated vehicles. Just try getting any action on those ARs. "

I believe you. However, just because there are worse areas, it doesn't make it better. Especially as it is almost completely avoidable.

Qie Niangao wrote: "Of course this wouldn't work when the vehicle gets stranded on no-script land, but the majority of clutter vehicles I've encountered still have running scripts and can sometimes be freed just by sitting on them ( ... ), so those could self-destruct, no problem."

She claims, the rotating parts, etc. were happening in the viewer, not on the SIM-server. She doesn't seem to understand,
that when the script stops, the updates of the rotating position and with that the rotation itself stops as well.
That means, if the wheels turn, the scripts are running, which is always confirmed by Firestorms's script counter. 
And that means, a clean up script would have worked. That there isn't one, shows, she either is unable to write one or she simply doesn't care.

Qie niangao wrote: "For the ones stranded on no-script land, I wonder about having some vehicles run active sensor scans for stranded vehicles. I wouldn't want to run sensors on every vehicle all the time, but dispatching an occasional garbage-collection mission could locate them for manual deletion before they create so much annoyance."

On the other paw, why creating an elaborate clean up scheme, instead of preventing the problem in the first place.
For example by simply staying ON the road. Other automated vehicles have no problems with that.

A few statistics: In the year I'm on SL again, I have found about 10 Yavascript-Tourpods, that were stuck, all of them were Temp-Images, that disappeared on right click, except one that was a permanent one, Yavanna removed it immediately when she came online. In comparison, the log files of the IMs with AnnMarie OToole are about 18kB, 95% of that are reports of vehicles stuck, sometimes at the strangest places. And a good number of messages were about multiple vehicles at one spot.

 

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There is very little to compare between these vehicles and the tour pods. These are physical vehicles that attempt to do navigation tasks on the fly, in real time. Staying on the road is no trivial task with the very limited ability to know where you are and where you need to go, and to determine those things in real time. The tour pods are non physical, and follow a meticulously predetermined route, using much more accurate and reliable functions to follow it. They are designed very well, to accomplish a specific task well and reliably, and their impact is almost entirely positive as a result. Between the two products, we can see the very best and the very worst of the general idea in action. 

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She claims, the rotating parts, etc. were happening in the viewer, not on the SIM-server. She doesn't seem to understand, that when the script stops, the updates of the rotating position and with that the rotation itself stops as well.

That means, if the wheels turn, the scripts are running, which is always confirmed by Firestorms's script counter. 
 

In fact, she's correct about the wheels continuing to spin while the scripts are forced off by parcel settings. They'll continue to count as scripts (and still take up some script memory, although it's impossible to know how much script memory from outside the scripts themselves, notwithstanding anything script meters purport to know), but aren't using any script time at all. The wheel-spinning is a prim property that is set by scripts, but will continue even if the script is removed completely.

If, on the other hand, you can sit on the vehicle and it tries to do something, then the scripts are running, and more than half the ones I find stranded along the roadside are in that state. Of course, if the landowner is newbie enough to have no-script set on their parcel, they are likely to have whitelist banlines, too, and then you can't sit on the vehicle to free it. In those cases, I've checked if the newbie landowner happens to allow scripted push, and if so, whether the vehicle is still Physical; if those stars align, I just blast the vehicle in the general direction of auto-return land; usually it rights itself and trundles on its way, but if not, auto-return eventually dispatches it to the great auto-recycling center in the sky.

(It's off-topic for this thread, but I'm seeing resurface a more serious threat to Mainland: ad farms again. There's renewed land-splitting extortion happening, and not only the abandoned microparcel problem. There's also a douchebag "network advertiser" whose ads are cropping up in volume, but Arbor Project no longer has resources to counter the threat -- nor even to count the damned things to make sure they exceed the 50 grid-wide limit.  They do sometimes screw up and drop more than one on the same sim: a violation we could report--if only there were enough of us left to have an effect.)

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Qie Niangao wrote:

(It's off-topic for this thread, but I'm seeing resurface a more serious threat to Mainland: ad farms again. There's renewed land-splitting extortion happening, and not only the abandoned microparcel problem. There's also a douchebag "network advertiser" whose ads are cropping up in volume, but Arbor Project no longer has resources to counter the threat -- nor even to count the damned things to make sure they exceed the 50 grid-wide limit.  They do sometimes screw up and drop more than one on the same sim: a violation we could report--if only there were enough of us left to have an effect.)

I think this was inevitable. We have seen a much more lax response to griefing this past year and it's clear that LL have taken their eye off of the ball. They don't seem able/willing to devote enough resources to maintaining order on the mainland and in my experience, the AR process is failing badly as a result.

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I wouldn't harp so much on that 'Stay on the road'-thing, if I hadn't seen better implementations.
However, if I had to implement an automatic vehicle, I would strictly use waypoints only.
It is the most reliable way and if there is one constant in SL, it is the LDPW-road network. It seldom gets expanded
and roads removed? Never seen that (Anyone have seen LDPW-roads closed/removed, correct me please).
Roads over private property is a different case, but to prevent problems, automated vehicles should stay off these anyway,
unless there is explicit permission from the landowners/groups.
Waypoint-driven vehicles can cater to that and can be set to stay off other inappropriate areas
(No, AnnMarie, the Bugatti does NOT belong on a waterway. And a schoolbus isn't a watercraft either.).

 

@Qie Niangao: I do not claim to be an expert in LSL-Scripting, I had done a bit of experimenting and when the scripts died,
all movements died with them. In case of Firestorms script counter, I have to rely on, what it reports. And I had a number of stuck vehicles with all scripts running, but zero script time. Some of them could be freed, others didn't move.
Having seen another thing going seriously pear shaped last week, I don't fully trust the server data, that get reported by a LSL-script.  Or a viewer.

 

 

 

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Porky Gorky wrote:


Qie Niangao wrote:

(It's off-topic for this thread, but I'm seeing resurface a more serious threat to Mainland: ad farms again. There's renewed land-splitting extortion happening, and not only the abandoned microparcel problem. There's also a douchebag "network advertiser" whose ads are cropping up in volume, but Arbor Project no longer has resources to counter the threat -- nor even to count the damned things to make sure they exceed the 50 grid-wide limit.  They do sometimes screw up and drop more than one on the same sim: a violation we could report--if only there were enough of us left to have an effect.)

I think this was inevitable. We have seen a much more lax response to griefing this past year and it's clear that LL have taken their eye off of the ball. They don't seem able/willing to devote enough resources to maintaining order on the mainland and in my experience, the AR process is failing badly as a result.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I suspect that a great deal of LL resources are spent supporting Merchants who want to make Money at MP.

The second greatest allocation is in hand holding Zindra, followed by Private Region owners.

The Mainland, and those Residents, are last in line.

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Believe me, if a vehicle is stranded its scripts are NOT running.  If they were the vehicle is very good at getting back on the road and if unble to, it self destructs.  The problem I'm facing is the NO-ENTRY settting on parcels failes frequently.  If the parcel is also no-scrpt there is no way to have a self destruct because the script is not running.  Those that say the scripts are running when they sit on a vehicle do not realize that vehicle "privileges" allow scripts to run in a no-script parcel but ONLY if a passenger is aboard.  As soon as you sit on the vehicle the rider is providing the permission to start running.

Temp-On-Rez is one of the only functions that will work in no-script land but setting to Temp-On-Rez doesn't work because the TOR timer is cumulative and non re-settable so you can't keep running it just in case a vehicle will get stuck

I do have monitors that can find stranded vehicles but there is no way I know of to remotely kill one object from another if the victim's scripts are not running.  Various solutions to the litter problem  have been suggested over the years and discussed in detail with the Lindens but so far they have not been addressed.

In the past I was able to keep lag to a negligible amount by scanning only once every 5 seconds.  With the new bug I have had to try running the navigation scripts once or twice a second to improve resolution to avoid colliding with the roadway boundary, with a corresponding incresase in script loading although still less than 0.01% time dilution..  This has cut mortality by 50%.  More tests are underway.

The problem I'm seeing with no-entry failing is nothing to do with sim crossings, Qie.  It can happen anywhere in a sim and I can reproduce it fairly easily.  I have isolated it to a particular script function.  The  probability of a no-entry failing varies from parcel to parcel and can change over time.  On some parcels I can violate it more than 2% of the time.  All properties can be penetrated with the lowest probability about 0.005%.  The reasons why some parcels are easily penetrated and others not has eluded diagnosis.

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As soon as you sit on the vehicle the rider is providing the permission to start running.

Ah, yes, you're right. I'd always thought of that special permission as applying to vehicles that had riders when entering a no-scripts parcel (sorta like the unrelated ability of an avatar to continue flying into no-fly parcels), but yeah, if an unmanned vehicle gets into such a parcel, a newly-seated rider will also confer that permission.

Too bad that the semi-permeable no-entry bug isn't related to sim crossings. I'd really hoped that going NPV just for sim crossings might reduce at least that part of the problem.

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Qie Niangao wrote:


As soon as you sit on the vehicle the rider is providing the permission to start running.

Ah, yes, you're right. I'd always thought of that special permission as applying to vehicles that had riders
when
entering
a no-scripts parcel (sorta like the unrelated ability of an avatar to continue flying into no-fly parcels), but yeah, if an unmanned vehicle gets into such a parcel, a
newly-seated
rider will also confer that permission.

Too bad that the semi-permeable no-entry bug isn't related to sim crossings. I'd really hoped that going NPV just for sim crossings might reduce at least that part of the problem.

a vehicle can stop moving. appear to stop moving. yet the script is still working. can replicate this  on Lucasian -> Wissendon border. the vehicle will stop but the script will still respond to the Pgup/Pgdn gear changes in the Starchild Rally car (from Cliffoed). same my simboard

if stand up then the car/board will insta move to a new position. when resit and drive (up arrow) the car wont move. stand up and it instamoves again. sit and repeat as many times as you like. what it wont do tho is move off Wissendon other than visually. just ends up outside the XY range [0..255]

+

also can replicate a"No access" warning. Crescent -> Shelter

 

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I know this is straying a bit from the subject, but Wissendon has been a dead sim for a few days now. There's a quick route through Bellobas and then that whole sim that's for sale. But I haven't even tried for a few days because other water sims up around there are much too touchy - sometimes you crash instantly upon touching them and other times you don't crash at all. It's not been easy to get through those water sims without an instant crash on touching one or other of them. Things have been quite touchy up there so I've been waiting for this week's rolling restarts. I'll see what those sims are like after that.

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