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EvaFord

DJ using ALT-Hostess for extra tips.

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Theresa,

Why do you keep trying to make this discussion personal?   This could be any DJ, there is no specific person named.. The DJ is NOT named nor will they be named. 

So please just participate in the discussion or choose not to participate. But please stop trying to make this about one DJ who YOU want to out.  It is NOT going to happen.

The discussion has evolved into a discussion about Ethics in SL a much broader topic. So Please stop trying to make this personal about me.


Theresa Tennyson wrote:

Personally, I feel that a person who puts false information in their "real life" profile section to be unethical.

I would also consider someone who discusses the ethics of a specific person in a public forum without disclosing and in some ways actually concealing material facts about their own relationship with this person, such as a longstanding business and perhaps personal relationship, to be a person of far from spotless ethics themselves. This would be even more the case if they were deliberately using an ALT to disguise their SL identity and if they claimed to justify witholding the evidence of their relationship by "not wanting to identify the other person" when in fact their primary concern was to hide their own identity.

Just as a hypothetical case, of course.



 

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Well stated comment that definately adds to the discussion.. Thanks. 

  I do agree that the club owner who wins the L$ is not ethical.  That is a good arguement for why we need to know the ALTS that are working/participating in a club setting where any sum of money is being exchanged.   Not when they are just playing privately in SL  but when they are asking for money in a business/Club setting or offering prize money to guests.

I know outing them is definately NOT the answer because of TOS as it stands now, AND because innocent people could be  wrongly accused. .  But I do think that LL is creative enough to find a way to make the use of alts in these situations illegal AND to hold them accountable. 

Maybe there are times when I would want to tip an ALT. 

But I definately want to know that I am tipping an ALT before I decide do it.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

 

You play SL with an avatar that is an extension of your RL self and I assume you fill out your profile accordingly and are expecting everyone else to do the same if they are in business because anything else is a lie and a lie is a scam, and any small scam means they will steal from you in a large way  That is a gross generalization and is just shaky grounds for imposing your choice on other's.  It is not superior ethics.

You said that not tipping is not an option for you, but you only want to tip certain avatars and so those avatars should disclose everything you need to see if they conform to your criteria.   People give you the information you need to decide if they fit the criteria - or they don't, you tip or not based on if they prove they fit your criteria.  If they choose to not give you the information you want then all you can do is not tip..  There is no other choice.

BTW saying 'I guess"  didn't negate the fact that you wanted other readers to consider that those that disagree with you are DJ's doing the same thing and implying that  their opinions should be discounted.

You made the assumption that I wanted others to discount differing opinions. That is not the case.  A discussion needs BOTH sides of the argument to have any merit at all.  It is NOT about being right or wrong.  

And yes Not tipping is not something I would ever do if I stay and enjoy a club and the build. I will tip a DJ requardless. The only information I am asking for is tell me if you are asking me to tip an ALT. 

Why is that so difficult?  I do not care if you are man or woman or what your other alts are or if you work under different DJ names..... just tell me if I am tipping an ALT. and also tipping you as the DJ.  That is not personal information that will harm you.  Right?  If you are afraid people will not tip your ALT if they knew it was your ALT then maybe you should ask yourself why that is the case.  Maybe that isn't a concern.   But when money is involved, I think it is a fair request.  AM I tipping your ALT ?  Then with the information I can decide how much I want to tip, if at all.  Sounds reasonable to me.

My mother taught me this when teaching me Ehtics.  If you lie about small things, you will lie about big things.  And yes, I do not leave my personal ethics behind when I enter SL. just because I am anonymous.  And no, I do not impose my ethics on you. Just like RL, the Community sets the standards.  That is why we discuss things in a Civil manner.

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Delbert, 

Also this could be very good for the ethical Club owners who offer legitimate $L  prizes.  and creative entertainers who put on elaborate performances, choreographing and designing.  People could then appreciate the great talent and effort involved in this one man show.and tip accordingly.


EvaFord wrote:

Well stated comment that definately adds to the discussion.. Thanks. 

  I do agree that the club owner who wins the L$ is not ethical.  That is a good arguement for why we need to know the ALTS that are working/participating in a club setting where any sum of money is being exchanged.   Not when they are just playing privately in SL  but when they are asking for money in a business/Club setting or offering prize money to guests.

I know outing them is definately NOT the answer because of TOS as it stands now, AND because innocent people could be  wrongly accused. .  But I do think that LL is creative enough to find a way to make the use of alts in these situations illegal AND to hold them accountable. 

Maybe there are times when I would want to tip an ALT. 

But I definately want to know that I am tipping an ALT before I decide do it.


 

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I do feel I have a right to know if I am paying someone twice just because their computer can run multiple ALTS.. 

So I am supposing this applies to every venue in the system, land baron 1, 2, 3, and four are all the same entity, shopkeeper 674 has 9 lines of clothing...what were overlooking here is whether or not the person deserved the tip , and obviously he/she did because it was freely given. One thing for you to consider : remove the flash and pixels from an enjoyable game to discover the underworkings of how you are able to experience the grandeur of moments in world and you will lots of things are not as they appeared to be and yet by your postings , you have removed a great deal of enjoyment of others by removing the aura and illusion which a virtual world offers you.

Consider this, Dj "B" has a venue where the club owner offers a 5000 lin contest, tells his buddies, they show for the contest, vote and split, or Dj logs in 18 to 20 bots and claims all, or the club has their own who casually pop in an enter to keep the money in house, OK, so were wanting revelation, lets look deeper into the money making club scene,shall we. YES, lets remove the aura and illusion ; again I must stress be aware of who has those admin rights to the stream before you go to worrying about one Dj's identities, working his tail off to provide entertainment and atmosphere.

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Again your basing this on multiples of a personage, not on performance of service or entertainment rendered.

Which leads me to believe theres somewhat more to the story and Paul Harvey isn't here to rescue me.

 


"and now you know the rest of the story"

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Alazarin Mondrian wrote:

Having and using alts is not against the TOS. If that were the case I would not even be able to reply to this thread. The first misconception is that people who use alts are underhand, deceptive, evil, cheaters or whatever. The fact is that you will have people who have such negative traits and will resort to them whether or not they have multiple accounts. Multiple accounts can, and are, used for a wide range of perfectly valid reasons. One person's "Onoz U haz t3h eb1l alt of dewm" is another person's alternate account to possibly try out role play in a different themed environment, or a funds-holding account, part of an artistic project or an avatar that is used for content creation or whatever. The fact that people tend to presume the worst is more an indication of how they would use alternate accounts rather than how alternate accounts are actually used by the majority of alternate account holders.

I'm an entertainer / performer live musician in SL and I use alts as part of my performance act. I have had to deal with people demanding that I only perform with my main account as well as people demanding that I only peform with a mini-me realo human avatar and countless other pissant whiny drama whores with their idiotic demands.

Guess what? I told them all to take a hike. I don't need their business. I have my own venue where I put on live music performances 3 times a week every week. Something I've done for years and will continue to do for years to come until Second Life closes shop. Everyone's welcome but anyone who takes exception to my live act earns themselves an instant ban, eject & teleport home. I don't even waste my time attempting to discuss their imaginary grievances with them. Life's too short to waste on things like that.

 

This!! 

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 "I did not have to go after the info It was obtained over knowing the person for several years with RL contact,. becoming disillusioned with what I saw as his shady business practices and then discovering that he is still at it, scamming others."

well, this changes things up a bit.  Finally, the heart of the matter.

curious, did you discover the person in SL based on your real life beef?

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EvaFord wrote:


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

 

You play SL with an avatar that is an extension of your RL self and I assume you fill out your profile accordingly and are expecting everyone else to do the same if they are in business because anything else is a lie and a lie is a scam, and any small scam means they will steal from you in a large way  That is a gross generalization and is just shaky grounds for imposing your choice on other's.  It is not superior ethics.

You said that not tipping is not an option for you, but you only want to tip certain avatars and so those avatars should disclose everything you need to see if they conform to your criteria.   People give you the information you need to decide if they fit the criteria - or they don't, you tip or not based on if they prove they fit your criteria.  If they choose to not give you the information you want then all you can do is not tip..  There is no other choice.

BTW saying 'I guess"  didn't negate the fact that you wanted other readers to consider that those that disagree with you are DJ's doing the same thing and implying that  their opinions should be discounted.

You made the assumption that I wanted others to discount differing opinions. That is not the case.  A discussion needs BOTH sides of the argument to have any merit at all.  It is NOT about being right or wrong.  

And yes Not tipping is not something I would ever do if I stay and enjoy a club and the build. I will tip a DJ requardless. The only information I am asking for is tell me if you are asking me to tip an ALT. 

Why is that so difficult?  I do not care if you are man or woman or what your other alts are or if you work under different DJ names..... just tell me if I am tipping an ALT. and also tipping you as the DJ.  That is not personal information that will harm you.  Right?  If you are afraid people will not tip your ALT if they knew it was your ALT then maybe you should ask yourself why that is the case.  Maybe that isn't a concern.   But when money is involved, I think it is a fair request.  AM I tipping your ALT ?  Then with the information I can decide how much I want to tip, if at all.  Sounds reasonable to me.

My mother taught me this when teaching me Ehtics.  If you lie about small things, you will lie about big things.  And yes, I do not leave my personal ethics behind when I enter SL. just because I am anonymous.  And no, I do not impose my ethics on you. Just like RL, the Community sets the standards.  That is why we discuss things in a Civil manner.

You've had a ton of opinions, and as far as I can see, most say that using an alt to perfom is not unethical or out of the ordinary.

I'm not too pleased with the fact that you are suggesting that using an alt is lying.  WE ARE ALL ALTS.

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EvaFord wrote:


Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

"Wait? I am lost here? My point is that you stated your rules clearly and I either agreed to follow them in order to receive L$. or I did not. So I am asking you to reveal that you are using an ALT in order to receive my tips. NOT asking you to reveal personal info about your life.

Personal info has nothing to do with it. Making an ALT giving it a RL and a fake photo and making it your partner and begging me to tip "her" is not acceptable to me.

That is terrible you got burned that way. No I definately feel that ALTS can serve a purpose in SL and no one has a right to your personal info in SL. EVER. And to out someone or destroy a business or do hurtful things to others is definately NOT acceptable to me."

 

ok, well I guess you've changed your mind during the course of the thread then, because in the beginning you said you were sitting on someone's Real Life info.  The fact that you even went after that, in the first place, is questionable.

Ultimately, I did not get burned, learned a valuable lesson.  There is a paranoid person lurking around each corner, revved up and ready to make some false claims.

 

Yes,  I have evolved and that is the power of a good give and take discussion.  Also having the chance to clarify just what the issue is in the first place. That is a product of  restating and re evaluating. 

 
I did not have to go after the info  It was obtained over knowing the person for several years with RL contact,. becoming disillusioned with what I saw as his shady business practices and then discovering that he is still at it, scamming others. 

I do see in the original post that my rhetorical question about posting in YOUR profile was not clear. I never intended to post his personal info in MY profile and this is really more info than I ever intended to give out at all.   

But it is only offered as a hope for change as far as ALTS, real money, and shady business practices go.

 

Bolded is mine. This appears to be the heart of the matter. This one person has caused you pain ... I personally can't paint all the alts in sl with the same brush. You need to come to terms with this person and then you will be able to move on. Good luck :matte-motes-grin:

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EvaFord wrote:


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

 

You play SL with an avatar that is an extension of your RL self and I assume you fill out your profile accordingly and are expecting everyone else to do the same if they are in business because anything else is a lie and a lie is a scam, and any small scam means they will steal from you in a large way  That is a gross generalization and is just shaky grounds for imposing your choice on other's.  It is not superior ethics.

You said that not tipping is not an option for you, but you only want to tip certain avatars and so those avatars should disclose everything you need to see if they conform to your criteria.   People give you the information you need to decide if they fit the criteria - or they don't, you tip or not based on if they prove they fit your criteria.  If they choose to not give you the information you want then all you can do is not tip..  There is no other choice.

BTW saying 'I guess"  didn't negate the fact that you wanted other readers to consider that those that disagree with you are DJ's doing the same thing and implying that  their opinions should be discounted.

You made the assumption that I wanted others to discount differing opinions. That is not the case.  A discussion needs BOTH sides of the argument to have any merit at all.  It is NOT about being right or wrong.  

And yes Not tipping is not something I would ever do if I stay and enjoy a club and the build. I will tip a DJ requardless.
The only information I am asking for is tell me if you are asking me to tip an ALT. 

Why is that so difficult?  I do not care if you are man or woman or what your other alts are or if you work under different DJ names..... just tell me if I am tipping an ALT. and also tipping you as the DJ.  That is not personal information that will harm you.  Right?  If you are afraid people will not tip your ALT if they knew it was your ALT then maybe you should ask yourself why that is the case.  Maybe that isn't a concern.   But when money is involved, I think it is a fair request.  AM I tipping your ALT ?  Then with the information I can decide how much I want to tip, if at all.  Sounds reasonable to me.

My mother taught me this when teaching me Ehtics.  If you lie about small things, you will lie about big things.  And yes, I do not leave my personal ethics behind when I enter SL. just because I am anonymous.  And no, I do not impose my ethics on you. Just like RL, the Community sets the standards.  That is why we discuss things in a Civil manner.

Yes, yes, yes I KNOW I said I would not enter this discussion again but the more I read the more pissed off I get. Again, I have highlighted the part I want to comment on. Even IF I had an alt, I sure as hell would not tell YOU or anybody else I am an alt. The TOS states that no one has the right to find that out about anyone's alt in SL. It's no one's business but mine IF I choose to have an alt (and I don't) and work that alt in a club. IF LL decided to add that to the TOS that ALL avi's must disclose they have alts and to name them, then I and I think many others would leave SL before disclosing such information. This is a matter of right to privacy. What I chose to do in SL is my business and LL's not anyone else's and certainly not YOURS. As has been stated before, if you don't like the club, don't go back, in fact, don't go to any clubs because I can promise you that some of those people that work there are in fact, alts. Doesn't matter if they are doing two jobs at once or not. NO ONE has the right to demand they reveal that to anyone. And now, hopefully I WON'T be back and maybe I should just stop notifications of this thread, period.

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"IF LL decided to add that to the TOS that ALL avi's must disclose they have alts and to name them, then I and I think many others would leave SL before disclosing such information."

There would only be 50 people left after that!

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

"IF LL decided to add that to the TOS that ALL avi's must disclose they have alts and to name them, then I and I think many others would leave SL before disclosing such information."

There would only be 50 people left after that!

LOL! I would have to agree with you on that, Mickey. 

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Good grief, I'm about to lose patience, too.

Eva - here is a suggestion:

make yourself an alt, and try out some roleplaying adventures.  Immerse a bit in another community that does it strictly roleplay.

Learn more about what other people use SL for.  Have an adventure.

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Okay, think of it this way. Every account on SL is an individual. However, all the accounts controlled by one person are RELATIVES. (I actually created most of my alts as "relatives" of my main, incidentally.) The ethics of alts can be seen as the ethics of real-life relatives. Contests in RL exclude the co-workers and relatives of the organizers and I can see this working the same way for alts of the avatar running a contest, and for the same reasons.

There are times when you'd rather be judged on your own rather than as a relative of someone else though. Emilio Estevez and Charlie Sheen are both the sons of the actor we know as Martin Sheen, whose actual name is Ramon Estevez. Emilio chose to use his birth name because he "didn't want to ride into the business as 'Martin Sheen's son'." Charlie Sheen took his father's stage name partially because he didn't want to be known as "Emilio Estevez' brother" (a fact that I'm sure Emilio thanks him for every day.) Many people in SL create alts for privacy, either as business people taking a break or to get away from psychotic exes.

The DJ/Hostess situation strikes me as being similar to a small pizzeria where the owner has his daughter as a waitress. Did she get the job because she was the owner's daughter? Almost undoubtedly. Is it important for customers to know that she's a relative? I'm not so sure. Customers who know this might say, "Oh, she doesn't need a tip, I'm already giving enough money to this family'" even if she's a fine waitress and would get tipped otherwise. She should be considered on her merits as a waitress and tipped accordingly. 

The fact that tipping involves a trifling amount of real money seems to be creating more drama than it deserves. If you're unusually generous and tip both the DJ and hostess L$250 (a WHOLE DOLLAR) each for two hours worth of entertainment, Truth Hawks will sell two more hairstyles. I don't see the big difference between them going to avatars controlled by two different people or ones that are controlled by the same one.

 

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Heart Brimmer wrote:


EvaFord wrote:


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

 

You play SL with an avatar that is an extension of your RL self and I assume you fill out your profile accordingly and are expecting everyone else to do the same if they are in business because anything else is a lie and a lie is a scam, and any small scam means they will steal from you in a large way  That is a gross generalization and is just shaky grounds for imposing your choice on other's.  It is not superior ethics.

You said that not tipping is not an option for you, but you only want to tip certain avatars and so those avatars should disclose everything you need to see if they conform to your criteria.   People give you the information you need to decide if they fit the criteria - or they don't, you tip or not based on if they prove they fit your criteria.  If they choose to not give you the information you want then all you can do is not tip..  There is no other choice.

BTW saying 'I guess"  didn't negate the fact that you wanted other readers to consider that those that disagree with you are DJ's doing the same thing and implying that  their opinions should be discounted.

You made the assumption that I wanted others to discount differing opinions. That is not the case.  A discussion needs BOTH sides of the argument to have any merit at all.  It is NOT about being right or wrong.  

And yes Not tipping is not something I would ever do if I stay and enjoy a club and the build. I will tip a DJ requardless.
The only information I am asking for is tell me if you are asking me to tip an ALT. 

Why is that so difficult?  I do not care if you are man or woman or what your other alts are or if you work under different DJ names..... just tell me if I am tipping an ALT. and also tipping you as the DJ.  That is not personal information that will harm you.  Right?  If you are afraid people will not tip your ALT if they knew it was your ALT then maybe you should ask yourself why that is the case.  Maybe that isn't a concern.   But when money is involved, I think it is a fair request.  AM I tipping your ALT ?  Then with the information I can decide how much I want to tip, if at all.  Sounds reasonable to me.

My mother taught me this when teaching me Ehtics.  If you lie about small things, you will lie about big things.  And yes, I do not leave my personal ethics behind when I enter SL. just because I am anonymous.  And no, I do not impose my ethics on you. Just like RL, the Community sets the standards.  That is why we discuss things in a Civil manner.

Yes, yes, yes I KNOW I said I would not enter this discussion again but the more I read the more pissed off I get. Again, I have highlighted the part I want to comment on. Even IF I had an alt, I sure as hell would not tell YOU or anybody else I am an alt. The TOS states that no one has the right to find that out about anyone's alt in SL. It's no one's business but mine IF I choose to have an alt (and I don't) and work that alt in a club. IF LL decided to add that to the TOS that ALL avi's must disclose they have alts and to name them, then I and I think many others would leave SL before disclosing such information. This is a matter of right to privacy. What I chose to do in SL is my business and LL's not anyone else's and certainly not YOURS. As has been stated before, if you don't like the club, don't go back, in fact, don't go to any clubs because I can promise you that some of those people that work there are in fact, alts. Doesn't matter if they are doing two jobs at once or not. NO ONE has the right to demand they reveal that to anyone. And now, hopefully I WON'T be back and maybe I should just stop notifications of this thread, period.

I do hope you will be back and not be angered at the discussion but offer your point of view on the topic.   Please note I am only advocating that an ALT in a BUSINESS/Club setting reveal that it is an ALT asking for L$ tips. I am not asking for other personal info.   That is entirely different.   Please keep your private ALTS and enjoy them.  I am only concerned when L$ are changing hands.  

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

"IF LL decided to add that to the TOS that ALL avi's must disclose they have alts and to name them, then I and I think many others would leave SL before disclosing such information."

There would only be 50 people left after that!


I agree. People do enjoy ALTS and there is definately a place for them in SL.

I am only concerned with ALTS who are in a Business position in a Club and asking guests for L$.  I do not care if the guest is an ALT as long as the guest is not the Club owner's ALT  claiming  a L$ prize and thus scamming guests. 

  I do not advocate that ALL  ALTS disclose, only the one's who are receiving L$ when woking in SL Clubs for tips and have another avatar workiing there at the same time. 

See the difference here? BIG difference.

 

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Idk, I am still fond of the live video feed verification for club employees, I mean since bandwidth,connectivity, and other forms of lagg in a club environment are well below a rpg or combat sim anyway.

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Good points.  It is hard to find good anologies for this situation in real life.

I see the big difference is you know who you are tipping ......one individual. 

I do hope that all her tips do not get pocketed by owner of the business at the end of the shift.  

How about this.  You are in a dance contest for a big prize. The rules say no one who works at the CLub or their relatives are elegable to win.  You are a finalist but lose to the other person who  is the owners daughter in disguise. 

How does that work?

 

 

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Hp Xenobuilder wrote:

Idk, I am still fond of the
live video feed verification
for club employees, I mean since bandwidth,connectivity, and other forms of lagg in a club environment are well below a rpg or combat sim anyway.

Not a very practical solution to the problem then is it , Hp ?

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as contests are mostly determined by entries and their votes I'd say you better snag a screenshot of all the avi names and do some future comparative results before returning to that club, of course if you didn't have 17 of your pals join the contest and win by popularity among peers vs a non biased panel of judges.

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EvaFord wrote:


Hp Xenobuilder wrote:

Idk, I am still fond of the
live video feed verification
for club employees, I mean since bandwidth,connectivity, and other forms of lagg in a club environment are well below a rpg or combat sim anyway.

Not a very practical solution to the problem then is it , Hp ?

 

Um....I believe that suggestion was made because, other than in your personal SL worldview, there IS no problem.

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

Good grief, I'm about to lose patience, too.

Eva - here is a suggestion:

make yourself an alt, and try out some roleplaying adventures.  Immerse a bit in another community that does it strictly roleplay.

Learn more about what other people use SL for.  Have an adventure.

Role play is FUN !  And wonderful escape in SL.  :)  :) :)   Great example of creative use of ALTS in SL.

 

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