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Almadi Masala

Security orb users: PLEASE mark your boundaries!

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This has happened to me a number of times:

I teleport to a sim whose description clearly invites the public to come explore and enjoy. While exploring the sim, I suddenly receive a harsh warning that I have intruded into a private area and will be ejected in a few seconds. There is no visible indication of where the boundaries of the private area are. I try to backtrack, but cannot tell at what exact point I entered the private area. Before I can get away on my own, I am forcibly ejected to some other spot on the sim.

This is, to put it mildly, very annoying.

Now, I have no problem at all with the sim owner setting aside part of the sim as private, but won't you PLEASE put up some kind of visible indication of where the boundaries of the private area are, so that your visitors do not unknowingly stray into that area? A fence or hedge surrounding the area, with discrete signs indicating "Private area, please do not enter" would suffice. Another option would be to have an auto-greeter message at the sim's tp entry point that clearly describes the locations of private areas.

I respect your privacy and will never knowingly enter a private area, but I have to have some way of knowing that it is private. Setting out invisible trip-wires and ambushing innocent visitors with angry security warnings and ejections when they cross those unseen lines creates a very unwelcoming environment in your sim. When it happens to me now, I immediately tp home and never return to that sim, no matter how nice a place it might be otherwise.

Clearly marking or describing the areas of your sim that are protected by security orbs seems like common courtesy toward your visitors, and will make them more likely to want to return.

 

 

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i think LL give us Adeqate options with privacy at 150m or less if ban lines are in place. above that and you're snooping where the land owner may not want and a security device is the only option i think if a security device has an at least 10second warning time that gives you enough time to go else where on sim

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The annoying experiences I have had with security orbs have all been at ground level. I would actually prefer that the sim owner use ban lines at ground level. I can make them invisible in my viewer, and if I bump up against the banned parcel, it will just tell me I can't enter. That is a gentler approach than waiting until someone has unintentionally entered the private area and then yelling at them and kicking them out.

I don't think 10 seconds is long enough, at least not at ground level. It takes a couple of seconds just to notice that the warning has appeared and to realize what is happening. If the boundary of the private zone is not visible you may not know what direction you need to go in to get out quickly. Lag can shave some more seconds off your response time. The last time this happened to me, the orb said I had 30 seconds to leave. I immediately tried to go back the way I came, but I still got booted before I could get out of the protected zone.

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Almadi Masala wrote:

This has happened to me a number of times:

I teleport to a sim whose description clearly invites the public to come explore and enjoy. While exploring the sim, I suddenly receive a harsh warning that I have intruded into a private area and will be ejected in a few seconds. There is no visible indication of where the boundaries of the private area are. I try to backtrack, but cannot tell at what exact point I entered the private area. Before I can get away on my own, I am forcibly ejected to some other spot on the sim.

This is, to put it mildly, very annoying.

Now, I have no problem at all with the sim owner setting aside part of the sim as private, but won't you PLEASE put up some kind of visible indication of where the boundaries of the private area are, so that your visitors do not unknowingly stray into that area? A fence or hedge surrounding the area, with discrete signs indicating "Private area, please do not enter" would suffice. Another option would be to have an auto-greeter message at the sim's tp entry point that clearly describes the locations of private areas.

I respect your privacy and will never knowingly enter a private area, but I have to have some way of knowing that it is private. Setting out invisible trip-wires and ambushing innocent visitors with angry security warnings and ejections when they cross those unseen lines creates a very unwelcoming environment in your sim. When it happens to me now, I immediately tp home and never return to that sim, no matter how nice a place it might be otherwise.

Clearly marking or describing the areas of your sim that are protected by security orbs seems like common courtesy toward your visitors, and will make them more likely to want to return.

 

 

If you'll look on this forum at past discussions people seem to hate ban lines more than security orbs.  So its a no win situation. However I personally think that a land owner should have full control over who can enter their land not only for privacy but to protect themselves from griefers, stalkers etc.  I will never live anywhere that I can't  have total control over this.

I prefer ban lines myself, they cause less lag, they are more secure, and people can turn them off if they don't want to see them.  You also can't enter the land unless you are allowed and so never have to deal with being tp'd home or to another area where you don't want to go.

Security Orbs do malfunction and start protecting land that isn't the owners.  I have had to deal with this more than a few times when I had rentals.  Some Orbs give no warning and those that do, don't give much time.  Also those that do are pretty worthless if you're protecting yourself from griefers, because even a few seconds is enough for some griefers to cause trouble.  While I do agree it would be nice if the protected area is marked by some type of border, realistically  anything you can use to mark a  border is ugly, like those huge screens you so much on the mainland, or in the case of a nice fence, cost a lot of prims to put down.  Most people just don't want to use prims for other things. 

 

 

 

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As owner of almost half a mainland sim, I agree completely that landowners should have full control over who can enter their land. I'm just pointing out that it is very aggravating for a visitor to be suddenly yelled at and ejected by a security orb without even having been told that certain areas are off limits. If you are inviting people to visit your sim and are hoping that they will enjoy themselves there, you might want to take that into account. Putting up a nice border may cost some prims, but if your goal is to provide your visitors with a positive experience, maybe it's worth it.

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Almadi Masala wrote:

As owner of almost half a mainland sim, I agree completely that landowners should have full control over who can enter their land. I'm just pointing out that it is very aggravating for a visitor to be suddenly yelled at and ejected by a security orb without even having been told that certain areas are off limits. If you are inviting people to visit your sim and are hoping that they will enjoy themselves there, you might want to take that into account. Putting up a nice border may cost some prims, but if your goal is to provide your visitors with a positive experience, maybe it's worth it.

I agree with you. Inviting someone to visit the sim without warning them that areas are off-limits does not create a good atmosphere. Have you tried IM'ing the sim owner? I know some sims don't allow ban lines or security orbs at all.

On the mainland I have been noticing what seems to be a correlation between abandoned land and ban lines. Visiting what might otherwise be desirable plots of abandoned land I often find ban lines immediately adjacent. Don't know what came first, though....the ban lines or the abandoned property.

In one case I recently re-visited a sim where a property owner with a trigger-happy orb once ejected me in micro-seconds when I grazed the side of her ban lines. She's still there, but another large parcel on one side of her has recently been abandoned, leaving her almost surrounded by empty land. 

Do you think ban lines and security orbs lower the value of surrounding property and causing neighbors to leave, or are they being put up because the adjacent abandoned property may be the target of griefers or squatters?

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I don't think there is any one solution that can/will make every body happy.

I agree that ban lines are the most god awful unsightly things.  And too often you run into them before you see them.

And security orbs with short fuses are the Devil.

I specifically got one that I could set the timer on and and set it for 60 seconds.  I think that is a very generous amount of time.

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The last time this kind of thing happened to me the sim owner was on-site, and I did IM her to point out the problem. She reacted somewhat disdainfully, saying that she was not about to change anything on her sim just because one person didn't like it. When it became clear that she was not open to feedback or suggestions, I said a polite goodbye and left.

I don't know what effect ban lines have on property value. If a for-sale parcel has ban lines around it, it does tend to make the parcel less attractive to me. But on the other hand, I have long-time neighbors who put up ban lines a while back, and I'm not much bothered by it. I know they are reasonable folks, so I assume they must have had a problem with griefers. If they were using security orbs, maybe it would be more of a problem. 

But I want to be clear: My problem is not with the use of security orbs per se; but with the failure to inform visitors of where private areas are located, which results in visitors being rudely accosted and ejected when they unwittingly stray across an invisible boundary. That is not a good way to make people feel welcome on your sim!

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we use one orb to protect a small part of our sim above and beyond the group access (it's a private area only part of the land group has access to).

It's easy to mark off such areas. A line of trees, a fence, a hedge, should be enough. If people jump that fence, their fault if they get ejected (though we've added an extra barrier in the form of a transparent prim running the length of each boundary, running up to above jump height).

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Everyone is welcome at our little docking place. But i can see why certain people want to have some privacy. An orb is better than those annoying banlines.

If you get ejected, smile and move along. There are worser things in life......

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Almadi Masala wrote:

The last time this kind of thing happened to me the sim owner was on-site, and I did IM her to point out the problem. She reacted somewhat disdainfully, saying that she was not about to change anything on her sim just because one person didn't like it. When it became clear that she was not open to feedback or suggestions, I said a polite goodbye and left.

I don't know what effect ban lines have on property value. If a for-sale parcel has ban lines around it, it does tend to make the parcel less attractive to me. But on the other hand, I have long-time neighbors who put up ban lines a while back, and I'm not much bothered by it. I know they are reasonable folks, so I assume they must have had a problem with griefers. If they were using security orbs, maybe it would be more of a problem. 

But I want to be clear: My problem is not with the use of security orbs per se; but with the failure to inform visitors of where private areas are located, which results in visitors being rudely accosted and ejected when they unwittingly stray across an invisible boundary. That is not a good way to make people feel welcome on your sim!

Just curious, why if you go to a public venue that doesn't take up the full sim do you think you are welcome to roam the entire sim?  You can turn lot lines on to see where they are and just stay on the lot the venue is on. If you want to wander off it, click on the lot you want to go on and see if it is in search.  If its not, its private unless it specifically says in the land description it isn't and you are welcome. Even if private property has no ban lines or security orb it is still private and you shootout go on it without being invited, in my opinion. 

 

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Rufferta wrote: "Do you think ban lines and security orbs lower the value of surrounding property and causing neighbors to leave,"

Nothing screams more "A**hole Central" than banlines, trigger happy security orbs and giant privacy screens. And that is a sure fire way to alienate neighbors and ruin property values. I see only one legitimate use for banlines: to keep out certain individuals one had trouble with. (Ban list in About Land). I have no problems with being booted out by an orb, if I accidentially teleport into a house or skybox, but being taken out of midair by a security orb -wether it be in a vehicle or on my own- constitutes harassment and I will file an AR in these cases. Always 100%. And as often as it is needed until either the offending security orb is shut off or the owner of the device is booted off of SL.

Personally I don't use security orbs or banlines, the only 'security device' on my plot is a visitor counter and a 1 minute autoreturn on objects left behind by strangers. That's usually all, that is needed.

I have no problem, if someone walks over my property to get to another one behind it. The lack of roads and walkways makes this compromise absolutely necessary. I would even lay down a walkway, 2, 3 prims and a free texture is all, that is needed for that.

 

 

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I agree with Jadeclaw.  Both banlines and security orbs are to be avoided.  If someone objectionable enters my land, I prefer to shoot them myself.

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So you won't mind me shooting you on sight if I ever see you even thinking about coming onto my land? Suits me.

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Imo, security devices are often necessary but I agree that making boundaries obvious would be a big plus with their use.

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Sorry, but I don't see any use case for security orbs - Except making their makers rich.

At best, these are snake oil, at worst they are disruptive to events and/or the local community. The 'About Land'-Dialog and the pie menu offer everything needed to get rid of griefers from ones own parcel. And Autoreturn kills any littering.I even have 'Object Entry' allowed for everyone, to guarantee that vehicle operators can cross my parcel unmolested. If an unoccupied vehicle ends up on my parcel, Autoreturn takes care of that.

And I don't see, how a security orb can prevent that:

http://www.jadeclaw.de/sl/Snapshot_382.png

Autoreturn prevents these things from happening.

(That plywood abomination covers 2 Sims, Gramela & Doesburg. The properties reachable with a mousepointer have Autoreturn disabled. An AR has been filed with LL.)

 

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I didn't say that sevurity devices are often necessary for you, so whether or not you can see any use case for them is irrelevant. I said that they are often necessary, which is true.

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I apologize for the delay in responding. I have been traveling for the last few weeks, without access to a computer.

Amethyst, in the most recent case I am talking about, there was no way for a visitor to tell that the public venue did not take up all of the sim. The venue had been advertised as a place for the public to visit, there were no visible boundaries marking the limits of the public area, and no information provided about the existence of private areas on the sim. Under those circumstances, I don't think it was unreasonable to assume that it was OK to explore the landscaped outdoor areas of the sim. There were even paths leading from the public entry point to other areas of the sim, with no signs indicating that one shouldn't follow the paths beyond a certain point. I was walking on one of those paths when I got booted.

Making parcel boundaries visible in the viewer might not always work, because security orbs do not necessarily go by parcel boundaries.

I appreciate that there are different views on this. I agree that property owners have the right to use whatever means they choose to protect private areas. If you don't care whether visitors have a good experience on your sim and don't care whether they return, then go ahead and use harshly worded security orbs with invisible tripwires and short fuses. But then why would you invite people there in the first place?

Respectfully,

Alamadi

 

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Almadi Masala wrote:

This has happened to me a number of times:

I teleport to a sim whose description clearly invites the public to come explore and enjoy. While exploring the sim, I suddenly receive a harsh warning that I have intruded into a private area and will be ejected in a few seconds. There is no visible indication of where the boundaries of the private area are. I try to backtrack, but cannot tell at what exact point I entered the private area. Before I can get away on my own, I am forcibly ejected to some other spot on the sim.

This is, to put it mildly, very annoying.

Now, I have no problem at all with the sim owner setting aside part of the sim as private, but won't you PLEASE put up some kind of visible indication of where the boundaries of the private area are, so that your visitors do not unknowingly stray into that area? A fence or hedge surrounding the area, with discrete signs indicating "Private area, please do not enter" would suffice. Another option would be to have an auto-greeter message at the sim's tp entry point that clearly describes the locations of private areas.

A -LOT- of people are very poor at guaging distances in SL, despite the universal ability to rez a prim and look at the numbers under X, Y, and Z...

I agree with you, and I use orbs, and its quite easy to configure them to be exactly within a marked off area.

Mine will only hit you if you get -inside- the walls of my house or my back balcony. Stand outside, on the roof, and such. Fine.

Doors to the house respond with locked when clicked on.

So there's no reason a random passerby would end up inside. Someone outside just wandering through would never even know I have orbs on the inside part.

 

All I had to do was edit the notecard in my orb, and put in numbers.

But again people fail at math in SL a -LOT-. I see people say 'X meters radius' and then tell you the diameter, or vice versa, ALL THE TIME...

But even these fools could help themselves by simply testing the orb. Bring an alt, or a friend, and see if they booted at the spot where you expected them too, if not, edit your settings again.

Finally some people just shrug and say "I live on a sim border, and we all know orbs are funky there and will bother people outside the lot but on the other side of the sim border.

 

Well... my orb goes right up to the edge of my sim's border, and you can stand on the other side of the border... and not be bothered. I just edited my numbers right.

 

So... there really is no excuse for people with vague orbs. If your place is partly open, be clear about the parts that are not. If your place is fully closed... rez a fence... make it obvious.

 

People who get inside my house get sent home. 0 or 1 second warning. I have no patience for them. But everyone else is free to enjoy the land around it - where I have things like a campfire, boats you can ride, fishing setups, a dance system, a little church, and so on.

 


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

Security Orbs do malfunction and start protecting land that isn't the owners.

They actually don't. Its just that some people don't know how to use the things they use. Consider - just how does it malfunction? Someone would have to edit the notecard and put in bad values, or edit the scripts and put in bad values.

- That is what happens a lot. The config cards and people who can't measure, and then come complaining to you because they don't know the difference between radius and diameter.

 

Banlines are vehicle catchers. They will not only stop a vehicle, but also shut off its physical status. If the area around has scripts disabled... the vehicle is now dead.

Its pretty common to see vehicles stuck partway into or up against a lot that has banlines.

Banlines create a nightmare for people exploring SL.

The thing about orbs is that properly used - the casual explorer will never know you have one.

- Like in my case... if you TP to inside my bedroom... well, what was your excuse for even going there in the first place?

But you can take a car and drive all over the roof of my house, if so inclined (well I'd likely eject you if you did it while I was home :P ).

And a vehicle won't get booted by mine, because they'd hit the walls of my house and change direction first. Even on the sim border side, thanks to an invisible prim on the land across the border. I would not have put an orb that close to a sim border if people could get stuck in by sim crossing lag. :P

 

- You should see the nightmare that results when you hit a banline and a sim border at the same time while in a vehicle. Your vehicle can get stuck, and you can get tossed 12 sims to the left...

If you're lucky. You could just as easily get forcibly logged out.

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote: 

So... there really is no excuse for people with vague orbs. If your place is partly open, be clear about the parts that are not. If your place is fully closed... rez a fence... make it obvious. 

People who get inside my house get sent home. 0 or 1 second warning. I have no patience for them. But everyone else is free to enjoy the land around it - where I have things like a campfire, boats you can ride, fishing setups, a dance system, a little church, and so on.

 

 

Thank you, Pussycat. I wish everyone hosting visitors on their land were as careful in their use of security orbs as you are. You are right, that a properly configured security orb need have no impact on a visitor who is not deliberately intruding in a private area. Your orb would pose no problem to me at all, since I would never try to enter a building that has locked doors or that appears to be private.

 

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the thing with banlines is that they interfere with vehicles. they not bad all by themselves i dont think

+

if linden fixed them so that parcel banlines worked liked sim banlines for vehicles and parcel banlines for avatars then all the problems go away

like when you on your vehicle and you hit a banline then just bounce off a bit and can carry on in other direction

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Warning with no actual ejection also occur at sim boundaries if an orb is set to 'parcel wide' but the border to the sim is closer than 96m from the orb. It will spam people on the other side of the sim border - thinking they're in its parcel, but it will lack land powers over there to eject them with.

No idea if where you were had such a border nearby though. But this is a common error.

 

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