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What opposing frame of reference are you offering.

Yes, a person can work their entire life, always trying, and never make it. Is that what you want to hear?

My position is that Society should work to make things better for us all.

What is good for you, is good for me. Life, liberty, freedom, food, water, clothing, education, opportunity... the list of positives is long.

 

What's the counter positions? Greed, usury, slavery, get them before they get you?

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Knowl Paine wrote:

I was thinking we could Waterboard them, or, send them to Justin Bieber concerts.

We start by acting with courtesy and respect for all people. Treat each person to honor and dignity, unless given sufficient cause to treat them otherwise.

I do not have a single answer to the World's problems.

Oh, me either.  A single answer that is. 

But, I sure as hell know it's not, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" 

People strive so they can achieve.   Take away that and you destroy a great power of man.  His motivation. 

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:


Celestiall Nightfire wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:
i dont know mucha bout Marx .. i do like his saying "
from each according to ability, to each according to need"
tho .. thats 1uv my favorite quotes .. when you say that communism is about getting fed clothed housed medical treatment & education .. that sounds better than many get under greed-based fascist corporatism .. but why does that have to be "about it"? why cant that just be the beginning? in exchange for what youre able to do why not get whatever you want ..
so long as its no more than anyone else gets?


The first quote I bolded basically means that one person can become a slave to another.  Institutionalized slavery.

Second quote I bolded, results in loss of incentive and motivation.  Why work harder or smarter if you get no more than anyone else? 

Here's real life:  

 

that was a really neat article and very true to what America pretty much has to do..well not exactly that but a drastic change like that..

the corporations are killing them pretty much with the economy and jobs and pay scales..

like small towns letting in these big corps that promise more roads and more things to the community..

 

the only thing they don't realize until it is too late is that..now they have lost being self reliant on each other..

instead of eating foods grown in the area they get food from all over that are the same foods they could have gotten already..

they eat less healthy and have lost community togetherness..

pretty much gave away a lot of freedom for more invasive way of life ..all because of wanting to grow bigger..

when really being smaller and more local was much more prosperous for the many..now the wealth goes to the few..and the many end up working more for less..

when they were working more together..they were all  stronger in the community..when they grew and became spread out ..the many became weaker in their part..while only a few thrived..

America needs to work on it's communities again to ever be strong again..

 

a community over here and over there and over there all self reliant..and when trouble hits their nation..they can all come together as stronger people able to withstand hits to their country..because if one part takes a hit..

it doesn't have the domino affect that one nation spread out and thin does..

this is why farmers do so well in hard times..

they have much more things to make them more self reliant..

like making their own clothes and growing  their own foods and things that  hurt in hard times..

with small businesses going away from smaller communities and having to deal with large corps..people have become slaves to the prices of the world rather than their community..

a community that covers all it's own trades is a wealthy community..

 

Gotta be careful here, Ceka. Self sufficiency is terribly inefficient. While farmers might do well in hard times, constructing a society to have small scale self sufficiency may well guarantee hard times.

One could argue that decentralizing our power grid with local generation and storage facilities is a good idea, because it reduces any community's dependence on the transport of energy (with the vulnerabilities and inefficiencies that entails), but it would be hard to imagine decentralizing the manufacturing of the technologies to make that possible. The building of solar cells isn't something one can do in their barn.

"
with small businesses going away from smaller communities and having to deal with large corps..people have become slaves to the prices of the world rather than their community.."

Being a slave to ever decreasing prices hardly sounds terrible.

"a community that covers all it's own trades is a wealthy community.."

I don't believe this is necessarily true, unless you are talking about the community of mankind. For any community smaller than that, I believe (fair) trading between communities is a good thing. Of course, as always, the definition of "fair" is subject to debate.

I lament the loss of my small local retailers and service providers, and the sense of community that seems to be vanishing with them. At the same time, I'm able to obtain goods and services now that I couldn't dream of affording years ago,  and I'm able to join online communities that welcome me with open arms.

It's been a while since I watched Hans Rosling work his magic in this TED talk, but I think he makes a pretty good argument for taking advantage of specialization and trade to improve our lives, which had been so dependent on "self sufficiency".


i'll just say this..

america does not make much of anything anymore..what we buy lasts anywhere from 1 to 5 years on avg..just about anything..

having to rebuy and rebuy..you end up spending more for the same thing..

there  is nothing wrong with being able to buy things we can't get to..

but to have  a country that is at the point of importing a lot of it's things..

those things that used to be made here..

those jobs are going and gone now and more than likely not coming back..

as i said..the few will benefit while the many get weaker..

 

technolidgy is nice..but right now the country really has a lot of people that would settle for way less just to have way more than they do now..

self reliant was meaning us all..in many levels..communities of all kinds of sizes..each and all working to get back what we had ..we used to be number one in education and manufactoring and we had a great econemy..

but we just had to be the number one super power instead and get global on every level..

that came back to bite us in the butt in a lot of ways..

 

i work around a lot of people that wear themselves out at our plant..then have to pick themselves up after8 hours here so they can go to their second job and putin another 8 hours..

barely ever seeing their wives because they are off working some other job to help keep up..

it used to be pretty awesome around here at one time..

but prices..we're just not seeing lessor prices..because incomes are not going up with the cost of living..

alot may have washing machines..but they are not doign as many loads as they used to be able to do..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I wish I could remember which famous person said, "the only thing worse than capitalism is every other economic strategy we ever tried."

Socialism works only on the smallest of scales. When you have only a handful of people for each trade, they will be more than willing to help eachother to "earn" their keep, and benefit the community as a whole. The purest form f socialism was practiced by the hunter/gatherer societies. "You hunt, She'll gather, He'll cook the stew, and I'll make clothing from the skins so we can all be full and warm." THAT works. When there are dozens of mechanics, or engineers, or whatever, it's mroe like "Everybody sees the problem, and says that Somebody will fix it, but Nobody does the work." Furthermore, if there is no way to ever gain an edge over the competition, then what motivation is there fo innovation? What Carl Marx seems to have forgotten is that motivation or lack thereof is a large chunk of what constitutes a person's ability.

The problem with capitalism in real life is that it relies heavily on the idea of "voting with your wallet." not only in terms of the product itself, but also in terms of the business practices of the retailer and manufacturer. This has been taken from us in a couple of ways.

1. Partnerships. For example: There are 3 companies worldwide that manufacture car batteries. Johnson Controls Inc. makes Motorcraft, Autocraft, Deka, AC-Delco. Duralast, Everstart.... etc. In fact, AC Delco hasn't had a factory to build any of their "Genuine GM parts" in over 20 years. LCD displays are just as bad. Microsoft and Apple are buying eachother's stocks. The bottom like is that businesses are no longer truly competitors. Competition is why the consumer wins. Now... we all lose.

2. Sweetheart deals. Apple dictates the prices they will pay to their vendors. Walmart charges less for their Pepsi products than what severral other businesses pay wholesale. Think about that. Turkey hill and 7-11 are paying mroe for their bulk amounts of soda than you are paying for one bottle at Walmart. In light of this, do the other stores stand a fair chance? The truth is that competition is often squashed by making the playing field an uneven place. General Electric pays almost nothing in taxes, but their competitors do. In light of that, how do you make a competative product for a competative price?

3. Litigation. This is a common tactic by businesses operating at a higher profit margin to prevent "undercutting" by competative products. It is of no benefit to the consumer, yet it drives the price of products upward. Apple will often take other companies to court based of frivoulous nonsense, to drain the coffers of their competition. Samsung had to defend itself against Apple due to the corners of one of their phones being too rounded, which Apple somehow considered a trait that only the iphone deserved.

Capitalism is an economic model with a relatively short lifespan, although it is much, much longer than the lifespan of other economic models. Communism requires actual revolts to change the balance of power, and regain a sense of fairness. Then it is a short while before the new regime succombs to natural human and biological instinct and takes more for themselves. This is both mroe noticable and more prevalent in hard times. Capitalism, if it remains pure and independant of socialist concepts (which it has not) requires a "reset" roughly every 200 years, and REQUIRES that businesses live a "natural" lifespan, whereby the larger businesses eventually topple and smaller ones crop up to take their place. If I were to get into all the reasons why, that would take a whole thread of it's own.

As the second life economy relates.... It is actually more "pure" than what exists in real life. We all hate the high tier. We all wish it would go down. We all want more opportunity. But think about this.

In second life, you control all your risks. Want to play for free? I did at one time too. But there wre so many nice things to buy, I started getting Lindens, and buying. I thought "What a great free service" until vendors changed my mind. I met a few people who took me shopping, and now I think, "Waht a great service. I can control my costs!" No monthly fee. No connection charges. Just vendors who pay for the land they set up shop on, and pay a percentage of their profits to LL.

If you are that shop owner, then you have several choices. There's the size of the parcel you rent, mainland or private, you set your own costs, and you do so with at least covering your costs in mind. Do you make your money for tier on a few high priced items, or several cheaper ones? Your choice.

What if you're not a shop owner? What if you want to create a landscape? You buy the land, subdivide it, keep some areas public so that people get something that you're offering that some other landowner is not, and make some private. What you charge for rental is largely up to you.

Typically, people will not buy a full region just as their own personal playground. There are some exceptions. But most of these larger areas are subdivided, and used for either shopping or roleplay. The shoppers want the goods, so they buy, and in that way tier is paid. The roleplayers often want a part of the sim to call their own, so they rent, often paying a little mroe than they would or getting a smaller area with fewer prims because to be surrounded by the theme of the sim they rent from is something they consider worth their lindens.

And so, in a very capitalistic way, we end up sharing the burden of paying LL for it's servers, technicians, and it's profit. It's ironic that Carl Marx was mentioned here, since his quote "From each according to their ability to each according to their need" actually applies here, in a virtual economy that is more capitalistic than rl capitalism.

Now, the ONLY way that LL is going to lower their tier is if the system as a whole begins to fall apart. If too many shops move out because they can't pay for their land, then too many landowners close their regions because too many shops moved out.

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JeanneAnne wrote:

yeah .. i do expect ppl to act rationally .. for the most part .. i think that irrational behavior stems from oppression .. oppressed ppl behave irrationally outuv resentment or as a way of getting back @ the oppressor .. in a community that isnt oppressive i dont expect much irrationality .. some perhaps .. due to mental or emotional illness .. but not nearly as much as is seen as is

the difference between the group making decisions by consensus or by majority vote & an autocrat doing so is that the group exercises compassion towards all .. dissenters included .. the autocrat or autocratic corporation has no compassion .. only profit matters not people .. when the group behaves compassionately dissenters & their opinions are accomodated as much as they possibly can be .. compromise may be reached that all can agree on & if not .. @ least the dissenters got the chance to have their opinions heard & taken into consideration .. LL currently neither listens to SL residents or takes anything into consideration besides maximizing profits .. corporatism is so pathological that any attempt to make decisions according to resident consensus is an improvement

Jeanne

 

i think you pretty much describing democracy

was Aristotle who said way back: "In a democracy the poor will have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme."

James Madison must of thought about this quite lot bc he came to the view: "A pure democracy is a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person."

he recognise that when a society gets to large then democracy breaks down. that power money wealth has this upward drift bc some people work smarter/harder at getting these things for themselves than others

+

is kinda impossible almost to stop this in a large society. survivalism and all that. the bigger a society gets then it ends up even impossible to ameliorate this over any longterm sustainable period

bc

is this tendency as well in large societies to emphasis making things more efficent, more cost effective, more affordable, etc. in areas of services and commodities and products that result. the idea being that the cheaper things are then more people (like the poor) will be better off

the difficulty is when this drive for efficiency is also applied to governance. can see that happening in USA with the Federal Government in some cases, and also many other western countries that have a federated system of governance. Spain, Germany, Australia etc.

Also this drive is happening in Europe right now. the proposal to establish a Euro Bank which will take governance of the banking system in Europe away from the nation/communities. is being proposed on grounds of efficiency, risk amelioration, affordabilty, etc. it all sounds, well! very efficient

+

i think we should try to look at how we can separate out the two functions - governance and production. i think is going to become more important as automation and technology advances really start to kick in hard over this next century

 

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16 wrote:


Knowl Paine wrote:

As the saying goes:
We the willing, lead by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful...

 

i think sometimes in lindens case it goes:

we the unwilling, lead by the ungrateful, are doing the impossible for the unknowing...

(:

 

 

I'm guessing there are times, when that would be an accurate perception, for some Lindens.

The original poster suggested, in part, that owners and operators of SL, should lower prices. 

Lowering standards, will not lead to improvements.

 

We need to create value. There are many ways to do that, none of which I care to discuss in this thread.

The Residents are the problem, and the solution.

 

 

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Knowl Paine wrote:


16 wrote:


Knowl Paine wrote:

As the saying goes:
We the willing, lead by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful...

 

i think sometimes in lindens case it goes:

we the unwilling, lead by the ungrateful, are doing the impossible for the unknowing...

(:

 

 

I'm guessing there are times, when that would be an accurate perception, for some Lindens.

The original poster suggested, in part, that owners and operators of SL, should lower prices. 

Lowering standards, will not lead to improvements.

 

We need to create value. There are many ways to do that, none of which I care to discuss in this thread.

The Residents are the problem, and the solution.

 

 

I agree with your thought that lowering standards doesn't lead to improvements. and also about creating value. not just us the residents but also linden the company as the architects of our SL world

+

the residents being both the problem and the solution. i always find is a fascinating subject. am a people watcher me. I like people and everything about them. what they do and why they do what they do

is my observation, just by sitting on a wall inworld for quite a long time now, that in general: people in SL who don't make stuff are the happiest. the next most happy are people who make stuff just for fun. like they don't make to sell. or if they do then is mostly sporadic and any income they do receive is largely immaterial to them. these kinds of people have either put no actual money in the game at all, or they have independent means outside of the game to support their time in SL

the unhappiest people today are in the 2nd group of about 4,000 (maybe 5/6 at most) people who keep SL afloat by regularly making content available for everyone else. the thing i come to understand is that without these people there would be no continual refreshing of content and the world itself. never would have been. never would be now. and never will be in the future

there is a 3rd group as well. the people who provide experiences for others. club/roleplay hosts and land barons mostly. some are content makers themselves. some not. they largely dependent/co-existant on the 2nd group

+

so i end up come to the conclusion that if i was linden (like the owner of the world) then i  would concentrate everything on this 2nd group of people

just on the basis that one of the two main reasons for happiness in the 1st and 3rd groups is the regular refreshing of content. accepting that the benefits that i as world owner (if i was) provide directly to this group will flow through to the other two groups with value added. value that only they can provide and not me (the owner)

when accept that is not me (the owner) then realise that apart from fix bugs, make tools and make the whole thing go faster and less laggy then am pretty much useless for anything else. in this kind of world

 

 

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Well said :smileyhappy:

I'm glad you said it, and not me.


I'm in the next happiest group; I build for fun and provide my own funding.

I could be doing more to help promote SL.

I currently, conceptualize, draft, design, and build all of my structures. Most of my builds are un-textured. I understand all the mechanics of texturing, I just have a problem with selecting complimentary colors.

Teamwork is non-existent in SL. Most of the people who are successful, did everything all by themselves; that's why they may appear unhappy, and that's why they write what they write in their profiles.

 

I agree, fix bugs, make tools, keep the lights on, no Linden meddling.

 

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Look I don't mean to be neg but SL is a US company and I have never known a us company do anything but lower standards to squeeze that last penny out, look at every industry in the US, every thing is squeezed for the max profit, it is the US culture and will end in being sucked dry, it has been done to every country they touch to.

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There some very interesting people involved with SL. There are indications, which appear to show, that SL is not entirely about money.

 

I completely agree, that Second Life is a business first; it's nothing personal.

Salaries to pay, contracts to fulfill, and obligations to be met.

3rd party suppliers and services providers, are busy pursuing their own interpretations of success. They have zero obligation to perform beyond their contractual agreements. 

 

Culture is Regional, it may surprise you to know, that America is a collection of States, with distinct regional cultures, traditions and dialects. We are a diversified people.

About 30 Million Americans claim Irish heritage, and an even larger number are Italian. 

Europe snubs US all the time, but we still like them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

 

i'll just say this..

america does not make much of anything anymore..what we buy lasts anywhere from 1 to 5 years on avg..just about anything..


 

Woah woah woah woah woah there Miss Sexy.. My 1977 Dodge Aspen still fires up and purrs like a kitten every morning, no matter the weather.

Buy American!

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Knowl Paine wrote:

[...] I just have a problem with selecting complimentary colors. 

I think you mean colours that go well together. Complimentary colours are very easy. Take a colour, subtract it from white, and what you are left with is the complimentary colour of the colour you started with. Or, to put it another way, a colour's complimanetary colour is the one that, when added to the original colour, makes white. Simple example: the complimentray colour of red is cyan.

The true primary colours are red, green and blue. Those are the primary colours in light, not pigment. Mixed together they make white light. Take red away from white and you are left with a mixture of green and blue, which is cyan.

But colours are not usually primary ones and a simple way to determine a colour's complimentary colour is to stare at the colour for 30 seconds or so, and then suddenly look at a white surface - a sheet of white paper, for instance. You'll see the colour's complimentary colour on the white surface, in the shape of the colour you stared at.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

 

i'll just say this..

america does not make much of anything anymore..what we buy lasts anywhere from 1 to 5 years on avg..just about anything..


 

Woah woah woah woah woah there Miss Sexy.. My 1977 Dodge Aspen still fires up and purrs like a kitten every morning, no matter the weather.

Buy American!

that's what i'm talkin bout hehehehe

that car was made in times when we made good things that lasted..

we manufactored in the U.S. buy american made in america..

you could probably still find a working microwave from back then if they had them back then lol

how long does one last now on the avg? a couple of years?

 

t.v's get thrown out instead of fixed..

same with appliances..

we were sold on maintanence free like it was a good thing..which it sounded great at the time..but it put people out of work..

how many tv repairmen do you know today that are still working on tv's ?

 

our money and it's value is based on our spending and our labor..this is why things are made to break in such a short time..it keeps us spending..

without jobs we can't spend..and when there is insecurity in the market..we won't spend even with money..

unless we have to..

so the value drops on our money..

when it drops so much like it is right now..the fed will step in and buy up bonds and treasury notes..which those are pretty much worthless because of lack of investment from other countries into america because of our debt being so big..

so the fed buys up these weak bonds and treasury notes and then prints more money..

they shoot an influx into the econemy..which really won't do much but give a false sense of security for a little bit..then that will eventually add to the decrease in value..

 

on the SL side of things..

california right now is in major trouble..borderline bankrupt..we won't be seeing tier prices go down any time soon in second life..

we may even see an increase next year..we may have seen one already if Rodvik didn't promise that they would not be going up..

 

i'm betting on an increase next year maybe early in the next year even..unless they have tier so high that they can hold off on raising prices..

but i don't see it going down for a long time if ever..

not unless they can start to retain a lot of these new users..

they are new income which will increase income..

 

if they could retain even 30% which would be above when times were good in sl.. it would be an increase enough to maybe see some prices dropping..

but the way they have first impressions setup for new users..

they are shooting themselves in the foot..

 

if america started to buy american and started to build into it's manufactoring again..and started to cut out these larger corporations that have bought everything up..

we would start to see a stronger america because americans would be investing back into themselves again..

i want to be able to one day buy a car that is gonna last as long as yours has that is american made..

imagine the money we could save not having to rebuy things..but only having to spend on repairs..

that's a lot of jobs right there and a lot of money going to other parts of our lives and their lives ..

groceries and gas for one..hehehe

 

wow i kind of just tookoff on a rable hehehe..sorry about that..

back on cars for a second..

i told my husband that i want to find us a 76 silver annaverssary corvette like my father had..

that or a 74 which was convertable..

we still see them running around..but you can't really find them for sale much..

he said he wants a SS chevy nova from somewhere in the early 70's ..

 

ok ramble off..again sorry for making this way longer that it was meant to be lol

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Well, as SL is a pastime, it is not a necessity. Whatever money spent here is for entertainment.

For some who make their RL living off SL, tiers might be a concern but for the rest of us it is just something to do.

Sometimes people say things like "I am not going to pay money for a game" or as a friend of mine says, "I am not going to pay money for something that doesn't actually exist". Thing is, a lot of people in the world pay $100 or more a month for cable TV which reruns the same crap non-stop and has shows that are so ridiculous that one could not pay me to sit thru.

So I figure I am pay about $12 a month for my tiny little 1400 meter land with about 400 prims and true it doesn't "exist" but it gives something to do.

 

Money spent for entertainment in SL is well worth it I think. I mean in my case, i blow more tha $12 a WEEK at the vending machines at work (for junk food I don't need to be eating)

The prices could come down, maybe. If you go to any continent, open the map and check "land for sale", 1/2 the map turns yellow with places up for sale

 

But what seems overpriced in a VR is not a real problem, the problem is the greed in the REAL world where people are struggling and corporate greed isn't letting up. I mean for things people NEED instead of just want.

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i guess i am the one outside the "norm"

my car is from the 70's, although my wife drives a 02 impala LS

my tv is 13 years old and has been fixed by my local tv repairman 3 times.

my microwave is 8 years old, although the apartment came with a brand new over the stove mounted one we use. I put mine in the storage room.

i don't understand why we are buying new in the middle of a bad recession when they could be fixed.. my dad drives around in the fall and picks up all of the ACs he sees, fixes them up and sells them inthe spring for $50 a pop. i fixed a surround sound system which had a broken belt.. $5 at the electronics store.. $1200 system with speakers. it scares me sometimes. my neighbor tossed her PC last week.. i asked what was wrong with it and she said the power cord got frayed by her dog.... needless to say i have a new PC to give my kids for xmass.. all it cost me was a monitor for $40. from the computer repair shop next to the tv guy.. i love my town.

people need to try fixing things instead of buying new cheap crap.

 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

i guess i am the one outside the "norm"

my car is from the 70's, although my wife drives a 02 impala LS

my tv is 13 years old and has been fixed by my local tv repairman 3 times.

my microwave is 8 years old, although the apartment came with a brand new over the stove mounted one we use. I put mine in the storage room.

i don't understand why we are buying new in the middle of a bad recession when they could be fixed.. my dad drives around in the fall and picks up all of the ACs he sees, fixes them up and sells them inthe spring for $50 a pop. i fixed a surround sound system which had a broken belt.. $5 at the electronics store.. $1200 system with speakers. it scares me sometimes. my neighbor tossed her PC last week.. i asked what was wrong with it and she said the power cord got frayed by her dog.... needless to say i have a new PC to give my kids for xmass.. all it cost me was a monitor for $40. from the computer repair shop next to the tv guy.. i love my town.

people need to try fixing things instead of buying new cheap crap.

 

that's awesome =)

my father is the same way and so is my husband...they love finding things  and working them back to new..

we have just about everything in the buildings on the ranch..

full auto and machinery shop with the big lifts..meat proccessing area in one building..even a machine shop for making things they can't find anymore..oh ya and the wood shop..

there is more like the seed presses and oil making areas..lots of things like that..

my father runs his things on a diesel mix of 50/5 oil and diesel..

so he grows most of his own fuel right in our fields.. lol

i'm probably the more spoiled one out of them..they would have me living like it was the old west if i let them lol

the rougher the better..they love it..

but some of the things they find on great deals and return to new..they do a really great job in finding things and bringing them back to new..

especially farm equipment..

something that is all rusted and looks like it is for show..they will pull  up and make someone a good offer on ..but also a great deal for them..

because they have the stuff to change them back to life =)

 

 

 

 

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

 

that's what i'm talkin bout hehehehe

that car was made in times when we made good things that lasted..

we manufactored in the U.S. buy american made in america..

you could probably still find a working microwave from back then if they had them back then lol

how long does one last now on the avg? a couple of years?

 

t.v's get thrown out instead of fixed..

same with appliances..

we were sold on maintanence free like it was a good thing..which it sounded great at the time..but it put people out of work..

how many tv repairmen do you know today that are still working on tv's ?

 

 

 

 

In 1960, you could get a real good TV for about $400. At the same time, the median US income was a bit over $4,000.00. It's easy to see that it would pay someone in that era to fix TV's for say, $10 an hour ($4000/yr = about $2/hr for a 40 hour week).

A real good TV still costs about $400. I doubt you'll find many repairmen willing to accept the rate it would take to make repairing it a good idea.

I'm not saying that's a good thing. I'm just saying many things aren't really designed to be so much 'maintenance free' as they are designed to work pretty well and be priced competitively. The result is that it is frequently much more economically sensible to replace them than to repair them.

I happen to think that's a really bad trend but there's no use blaming the manufacturers. All we have to do is stop buying the less expensive products that still do everything we need. Just put our little tiny foot down and say, "No. We don't want it. Come back when you have something that will last for years and can be repaired. We don't care if it costs twice as much."

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Dillon Levenque wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

 

that's what i'm talkin bout hehehehe

that car was made in times when we made good things that lasted..

we manufactored in the U.S. buy american made in america..

you could probably still find a working microwave from back then if they had them back then lol

how long does one last now on the avg? a couple of years?

 

t.v's get thrown out instead of fixed..

same with appliances..

we were sold on maintanence free like it was a good thing..which it sounded great at the time..but it put people out of work..

how many tv repairmen do you know today that are still working on tv's ?

 

 

 

 

In 1960, you could get a real good TV for about $400. At the same time, the median US income was a bit over $4,000.00. It's easy to see that it would pay someone in that era to fix TV's for say, $10 an hour ($4000/yr = about $2/hr for a 40 hour week).

A real good TV still costs about $400. I doubt you'll find many repairmen willing to accept the rate it would take to make repairing it a good idea.

I'm not saying that's a good thing. I'm just saying many things aren't really designed to be so much 'maintenance free' as they are designed to work pretty well and be priced competitively. The result is that it is frequently much more economically sensible to replace them than to repair them.

I happen to think that's a really bad trend but there's no use blaming the manufacturers. All we have to do is stop buying the less expensive products that still do everything we need. Just put our little tiny foot down and say, "No. We don't want it. Come back when you have something that will last for years and can be repaired. We don't care if it costs twice as much."

actually depending on the quality..if you were to compare a tv from the 1960's to one of it's over all quality today..to get the same thing..

you would be looking at back then for some models say 350 to 400..you would pay around 2,200 or so for something that would fall close in the same bracket..

because of the all around quality being so good back then..

400 today would not get you close to a 400.00 tv as far as all around quality..

would a 2,200 dollar tv last as long as one for 400.00 back then..

probably not..

 

 

 

 

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tvs & appliances use2 have vacuum tubes or transistors & capacitors etc .. now they have a chip .. use2 could fix em by replacing the bad components .. now they arent made to be fixed ..

personally .. i could care less where somethings made .. so long as i like it ..

why would we want the US to be 'stronger' ?? the US is a notorious international bully .. id say the weaker the US is the better .. for the sake of all concerned

even if manufacturing still took place in the US wed hav2 import mostuv the raw materials to make stuff outuv .. mining & growing raw materials just destroys the environment .. of course we all live on the same planet so wherever the environment gets destroyed it harms us all .. but it harms those who live closest the most .. id just as soon the destruction occured elsewhere altho in the long run it really doesnt matter

Jeanne

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I picked an admittedly bad example, picking something based on electronics. Because things change SO fast in that area, you can never really compare. I have watched vacuum tube televisions. The images couldn't compare to the ones we see today (not that all of that has to do with vacuum tubes v transistors). Did they last longer? Dunno. Were they better made? Possibly. Certainly a great deal more hand work went into them. And yeah, to get something made involving that much labor would cost a bundle today—your estimate's probably on the conservative side.

I think I'm derailing the derailment here :-).

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

 

 

 I have watched vacuum tube televisions. The images couldn't compare to the ones we see today (not that all of that has to do with vacuum tubes v transistors). Did they last longer? Dunno. Were they better made? Possibly.


are you kidding? vacuum tubes burnt out after a few score or hundred hours .. the 1st computers had thousands of vacuum tubes .. you started a calculation & 1 tube burnt out & you had2 replace it & start all over again .. vacuum tubes were big & got hot & represented a single switch .. now hundreds of thousands of switches are packed on2 a single chip .. all you oldbies nostalgic for the 'good ole days' need to get real .. the tech sucked in those days ..

Jeanne

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Um...I understand Electronics, Jeanne, but thanks for the attempted clarification.

Don't know why you felt compelled to offer it: my comment was that the images on vacuum tube tv's couldn't compare with the ones we see today. The common understanding of the phrase 'can't compare' or 'couldn't compare' is 'nowhere near as good'.

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

Um...I understand Electronics, Jeanne, but thanks for the attempted clarification.

Don't know why you felt compelled to offer it: my comment was that the images on vacuum tube tv's couldn't compare with the ones we see today. The common understanding of the phrase 'can't compare' or 'couldn't compare' is 'nowhere near as good'.

huh ?!?

Jeanne

 

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