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Actually, this stuff today has definitely got me thinking. Even if we aren't yet quite comfortable with the security of the open sim, I wonder how it can be used in a non commerce point to further grids that do produce content. Ok, here my brain turning there? What I mean to say is something like this....


I own a goth store. A large base of my clients are into the whole bloodlines and even non bloodlines RP aspect for Vampires and Wolves. What I am thinking if what if I could create a place to advertise from my locations in SL, Inworldz and Avination or wherever else I may open a store and promote the open sim location as a goth RP sim. And back in the RP sim...promote the world stores in all those other closed grids. Especially if one day any of them open up...like Avination and allow items to be available on the open grid. It could all possibly work together to promote each other and build even more customer loyalty up by spending a little bit of money to create an RP sim for customers and potential customers. Who knows if it would be successful but at the cheap rates of an open sim (or even free if Czari was right) it would simply be a sink of time to build it up...which I would potentially do.

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Now that I'm no longer the only person having mesages deleted from this thread, I'd just like to point out to that other person that this is just one more example of how her own tolerance for opportunistic moderation is being abused.

She has allowed herself to become a tool of the very person she has defended.

This is hardly the first time, but now she should be able to see that this is absolutely true.

Sometimes we only think we are making our own decisions.

Of course, when you have one person both producing the SLM code and policing how people are allowed to talk about how it's working, it's not much of a surprise that messages get deleted and contributors get banned if they point out even things which will seem to be beyond dispute to most readers if they simply look at what has been provided by LL employees; especially things that are beyond dispute...

Such as the fact that using 2 accounts attempts to mask the fact that CTL has told all of you (words to the very real effect that): "I have investigated the code I produced to see whether or not I'm using it to steal from you, and I have determined that I am not using it to steal from you, regardless of all that you've documented that can't otherwise be explained."

It's been nice conversing with you people, and I'm sorry that I have to get banned yet again in order to point out to you how really far out of hand - criminally out of hand - CTL has got in the last year. 

Be sure to keep an eye out for this account getting closed and all the pertinent messages being deleted when CTL shuts off your magic boxes on 1 October without having solved the DD permission problem, as I have now very repeatedly told you that she will.

 

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:


 
  1. The question I will ask you is to turn your statement around - after all these years of having jira, now would anyone else at LL be behind this?  What would compel any other LL staffer "with enough authority" to execute this stupid move?  Do you honestly believe that the general LL staff want to see jira gagged? 

     

    LL has used the resident jira and all the vounteer efforts / participation from their own customers for years to help them identify and solve their problems faster and more effectively.  LL staff has often used the jira as a way to sluff off annoying customer problems, bugs. and proposed features by telling customers to "file a jira" and then go and ever look at the jira.  LL effectively uses it as one of the most effective direct open methods of LL / Customer communications.  In fact I see it often in the LL User Group meetings where the entire agenda is based on local chat referencing JIRA # for the group to talk about.

     

    So..... why would any other LL staffer NOW want to gag it?  It must be someone new to the game at LL and someone with motives that do not relate to years and years of current operations and a person with high enough authority to be able to veto all the LL staff at lower levels that would have been against gagging jira.... RODVIK.
  2. Rodvik is from EA and in his old world - the entire concept of
    direct open communications and interactivity with their customers is a huge no-no
    .  EA would not allow a customer to see as much of the inner workings of their operations.  EA would not allow customers to have so many direct personal multi-lateral communications with their customers like what has been the entrenched culture at LL since its inception.  

     

    Rodvik has taken his entrenched EA culture to LL.  It must make Rodvik's skin crawl to see all his staff having so many direct communications with its customers.  In the first 100 days of Rodvik's rule at LL he came in and pretended to be an open book and join the LL culture by directly communicating with all his customers is so many ways.  But it was only an act so that he could "learn".

     

    But if you look back in the past year, you will see a lot of evidence of Rodvik putting a stop of have his staff directly interact with LL's customers except via "customer classed" restricted formats.  The Commerce Team has been one of the first to be gagged as they do not communicate with Merchant at all.  LL has backed out of more and more SL inworld events - they did not even participate in their own SL8B birthday (which they have in all past years).  And not the Customer JIRA is being gagged because Rodvik does not belive that customers should see - much less actively participate in - LL's product/service bugs.  That is like airing a company's ugly secrets.  Rodvik hates this.

     

    This is not a theory - Rodvik "IS" executing a "close up communications with the customers" policy. 
    The evidence is clear.  It doesnt matter to Rodvik that logistically speaking - his staff has been using the countless person decades of free skills and effort to help LL develop and support its own service.  Rodvik dont grasp that.  Rodvik just wants his customers not to see the inner workings of LL. 

     

    As such, dont be surprised when Rodvik shuts down LL User Groups.  Dont be surprised that a lot of the SL Blog and Forums get removed.  The blogs are rarely used already.  Rodvik will be shutting down any "rogue" communications and at worst replacing them with highly restricted systems. 
  3. Rodvik's "convert SL into a gamers platform" is another critical reason why Rodvik directly executed this move.  He is integrating into STEAM in desperate hope that the performance hungry Gamers will come streaming into the SL grid.  He doesnt want the Gaming community to see any evidence of all the countless service bugs on file at LL.  To Rodvik - this is embarassing. 

I am very confident is saying that not only are LL staff not the ones that suggested gagging the Customer JIRA, but there likely was an intense internal feud / debate between LL staff and Rodvik and his inner circle of cronies that are executing Rodvik's policies.  But that the JIRA Gagging went thru anyway makes it really clear that Rodvik is the one to blame for the gagging of the Jira.

There is only ONE PERSION THAT ALL FINGERS POINT TO......  RODVIK.


1) After all the years of JIRA, CTL would want to kill it because the JIRA make CTL look much worse than Rod, especially if you read all the commentary attached to them (such as my own). CTL has a massive number of open JIRAs assigned while Brooke, like Rod, mysteriously has none. Didn't Brooke used to handle some JIRAs? This is a point which Valve had specifically been asked to scrutinize in SL user email.

   While JIRAs were still being assigned to people who legitimately closed them, the JIRAs were a great system. But that changed - not with Rod's presence, but with the shifting of JIRAs from Brooke to CTL.  Moreover, the JIRAs were exposing Rod as a bad manager, but they were gradually exposing someone else as a calculating criminal - charitably put, if not CTL, herself, then someone else for whom CTL is going to take the fall when the sh## hits the fan over the lost Steam deal.  Who do you think would find the problem more urgent to solve if user email had specifically directed Valve to scrutinize one person's behavior in connection to the content of the open JIRAs, and specifically as showing a pattern of calculated criminal intent?

None of what happened would require a decision from Rod. All it would require is for Rod to do nothing about it. The individual currently identifying as CTL is the person who writes the bad code, "investigates" the bad code, explains the bad code, and cotrols what people can say about the bad code. That Rod really controls much of anything that is important to merchants is pure fantasy. Allowing CTL access to teh JIRA system is pretty much a foregone conclusion. At this point, he might as well just hand her his testicles in a jar and get this whole process over-with.

A more important point, though, is really just that Rod must want SL to be profitable in order to be seen to be doing his job, whereas The Malefactor only needs SL to produce some amount of revenue which might be made larger, even if the amount from which it is to be derived might have to be made smaller in the process. That is, letting Rod look bad is incidental to more effectively squeezing a smaller and smaller turnip if it means more juice in the end. The Malefactor must be in a position in which the ultimate failure of SL doesn't stand as an important personal career threat. Rod is not in such a convenient position. Which process do you see actually happening so far?

2) I DO recall how many freudian slips Rodvik (not unlike Brooke) also made during the early August 2011 video. He kept saying things like "getting Second Life through our system" when he apparently meant to say "getting mesh through our system". But this is not the mannerism of someone scheming to turn SL into WOW. This is the mannerism of someone whose mind is just not putting stuff together well enough to accomplish much of anything at all.

Watch the video again. Something is wrong with Rod, yes. But it's not calculated. If you listen carefully to what everyone in the video says and how they say it, it should become clear that Rod has simply fallen asleep at the wheel and the LL ship is now being just as often steered by someone much more alert and much more sociopathic.

3) The very fact that Rod could somehow become deluded into the belief that SL is or will be in any way close to ready for Steam by the time it's supposed to be is just one more indication that his mental condition is not up to the task of doing the kind of sometimes pretty subtle stuff that's being done with SLM code to reward and punish specific merchants.

The person who is doing stuff like making the sorting tool work properly only when I'm looking at my own store with my own account logged in wouldn't necessarily have any reason to care whether or not the Steam deal would go through, at least without user input to make it in some way complicated for her.

If the deal had gone through straight, there would have been some more legal dangers for her, but that might be offset by the larger revenue pool from which to "derive benefit", at least until the LL ship finally goes under and it's time to vanish off the map, leaving someone else holding the bag.

If the deal had not gone through for some minor, unrelated lack of agreement between LL and Valve, there would still be plenty of money around for a little while, and she could at least for a while worry less about anybody (like Valve) conducting anything better than a shameless travesty of an investigation of her activities.

Note that the indifference toward discusssion of the Steam deal on this forum ends, chronologically, not with Valve's legal dogs being put onto Rod's scent, but onto CTL's scent.

Moreover, the hiding of the JIRAs was preceded by a flurry of desperate actions by CTL including thread deletions, banning, and even a JIRA "update" announced by CTL during which all and only the Merchant JIRAs became inaccessible.

Why all and only the merchant JIRAs?

Was Rod trying to make it look like CTL was deciding what to hide?

 

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Deja Letov wrote:

Obviously as you said, closed grids like Avination and Inworldz are ideal and so I'm looking into those more and more. I haven't heard of Spoton3d, I will definitely check that one out. Any other closed grid systems I should look into?

As cYo we provide licenses for our products for third party grids. We started to do this mainly as a service to our existing customers who already bought our products in SL and wish to expand their activities to other grids. We do this on 3 grids, and that are the grids you mentioned.

 

My experience is as follow:

 

On SpotON3d we had just one customer. She has been on this grid for about half a year and not long ago she IM-ed me to let me know she gave up on this grid and had returned to SL.

 

AviNation looked very promising in the first half year, there was a lot of optimism among merchants about the chances on this grid. During the first 6 months we had several request for licenses. None of these merchants returned later for new licenses, neither did new merchants ask us for licenses. Many of the merchants who tried on AviNation have stopped, reason: sales were not good enough to pay for the tier.

 

InWorldz is the place to be for a merchant who wants to expand outsite SL. cYo has many customers with a SL shop who do also fine in IW. Most of them are returning customers at cYo, and when they ask for new licenses I often ask how their business is doing in IW. The general conclusion is: ofcourse the population of this grid is much smaller, so the SL shop generates more income then the IW shop, but they are making profit there.

For IW we also get requests for licenses from people who don't have a shop, but enjoy their private land. They move to IW because of the lower tier costs, and I hear them often complain about the limited quantity of virtual goods in IW, and the merchants in SL who don't provide licenses for use of their products in IW.

 

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@Luna

I am fully aware of the founding principles of  the Open Simulator Project and OSgrid was set up as a test grid for the server code. They allowed anyone to connect a region to that grid but made it clear they don't support any economy or token currency. Beyond that the founders have no interest or control over the many individuals that take the server code and use it. They do nto impose a TOS like SL dose because they can't. They don't own all the servers. Now, I wont deny there are individuals that believe in some utopian ideas who have regions attached to OSgrid and those individuals believe in share and share alike. Some call them Techno-communits but it is not the official position of the founders, the developers or the managers of OSgrid.

The rest of the open Metaverse is not attached to OSgrid anyway even though they use the open source server code. The Licence on the code permits anyone to use it how they chose and to develop it further and keep their code secret which is what grids like Inworldz and other closed grids have done. They make their own TOS and so do the many other grids that either remain walled gardens or connect with others via Hypergrid.

Mentioning the dramas that go in the community is fine but similar stuff happens in all communities and plenty of bad things have happened in the SL so you are actually confirming that there is enough community on the Open Metaverse to actually get into those problems.  There is much more good than bad in all communities don't you agree?

My blog... Metaverse traveller

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I registered and looked around Avination but decided after a period where there was some question about it being a good place to safely be a Merchant on the grid to back away.  Never went back since nor has any of my customers asked me to sell my sculpted terrains there.

I have had the occassional requests over the years to sell my sculpty packs in other grids like OSgrid and some private grids but didnt feel it was worth the effort to set up a presence to sell.  My policy is that I basically dont sell my content on a grid unless I have a presence on the grid.

I had a lot of requests from customers to bring my content to IW and almost 2 years ago I executed on that demand.  I set up a SMALL store that allows my customers to buy my content on that grid as well as new customers on that grid.  Unlike Cyo, I do not allow my sculpty license to extend outside of the grid that the pack was purchased - for a few reasons.  And I have not had one complaint from any customer that it was not a fair policy.  They have bought the content at IW even though they bought it in SL. 

Obviously IW's population is dwarfed by SL evn though it continues to grow, but after I set up my store and products on IW the care and feeding of the store is like an hour a month (or less).  I dont make a killing on IW (about $250US / year) but considering the effort to maintain it and that I have responded to many customers that wanted my products in IW, any profits from IW is great. :)

 

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@Czari

What you wrote was very interesting and I am aware that a number of role play communities have set up in OSgrid or the rest of the Metaverse. The Elven realms on Inworldz comes to mind right away and I have a draft copy to post on my blog soon about a Dark gothic Vampire theme that has moved from SL to OSgrid recently and is devloping their 4 region sims presently. I also wrote about Star Fleet Federation, a Trekie RPG group that opened a number of sims on OSgrid to learn the ropes so to speak. That was a few years ago and they have since set up their own grid. It has been very successful because they keep some sims in SL and spread their role play across all of the sim both in SL and the open Metaverse.


I am sure role players will benefit from this way or working and if anything should happen to SL then at least people wont have their eggs all in one basket and the Open Metaverse is a growing market for merchants anyway.


I should love to meet you perhaps in OSgrid one day. IM me any time. I have the same name there and in SL.

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

 

I have had the occassional requests over the years to sell my sculpty packs in other grids like OSgrid and some private grids but didnt feel it was worth the effort to set up a presence to sell.  My policy is that I basically dont sell my content on a grid unless I have a presence on the grid.

I had a lot of requests from customers to bring my content to IW and almost 2 years ago I executed on that demand.  I set up a SMALL store that allows my customers to buy my content on that grid as well as new customers on that grid.  Unlike Cyo, I do not allow my sculpty license to extend outside of the grid that the pack was purchased - for a few reasons.  And I have not had one complaint from any customer that it was not a fair policy.  They have bought the content at IW even though they bought it in SL. 

 

In cYo we see it different, but our product is different as yours as well. Though we always included some texture examples, the essence of our product is that it is only a half product. That is why we provide the Photoshop files, it gives people an easy guide to start their own creative work in Photoshop or Gimp. (Okay, we have some 'lazy' customers as well, who just use our sample textures and use the products as prop in a bigger scene.) But special for the people who put in their own creative labour, and thus create new content that fits our sculpty or mesh, it would not be possible for them to sell their own creative work on a third party grid when we don't provide them a license.

But we do not allow to use our SL licenses for other grids. When a merchant is active in both AVN and IW for example, he has to buy additional licenses for both grids. Those are (in most cases) cheaper then the product. We think people have bought the product already, we don't need to sell it for a second time. What they do need is our permission to use the product in other grids. And we are very willing to give this after personal contact and explaining our policy.

 

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@Deja


You wrote...

"Actually, this stuff today has definitely got me thinking. Even if we aren't yet quite comfortable with the security of the open sim, I wonder how it can be used in a non commerce point to further grids that do produce content. Ok, here my brain turning there? What I mean to say is something like this....


I own a goth store. A large base of my clients are into the whole bloodlines and even non bloodlines RP aspect for Vampires and Wolves. What I am thinking if what if I could create a place to advertise from my locations in SL, Inworldz and Avination or wherever else I may open a store and promote the open sim location as a goth RP sim. And back in the RP sim...promote the world stores in all those other closed grids. Especially if one day any of them open up...like Avination and allow items to be available on the open grid. It could all possibly work together to promote each other and build even more customer loyalty up by spending a little bit of money to create an RP sim for customers and potential customers. Who knows if it would be successful but at the cheap rates of an open sim (or even free if Czari was right) it would simply be a sink of time to build it up...which I would potentially do."

I think your ideas could work well Deja. It would certainly be supportive and help you build your brand and customer loyalty. I'm sure that is how it has worked for Toy selling sculpties in IW.

As far as I am concerned anything that builds more business and the open Metaverse which we all can benefit from the better. If I can help in any way do contact me in OSgrid or SL on this name. I am quite happy to talk more and help anyone out since I do have quite a lot of experience with this thing :matte-motes-bashful:

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@Kampu

Kampu, you run a great business, you have great customers, great product, and have The Key.

As I said earlier, I've read all the observations. 

For 4 years, I operated in "build" mode, "grow" mode.

I don't think you can do that anymore in some areas of the Internet.  Perhaps you cannot do that in any area of the Internet.  Because once you get built it, rug gets pulled, someone else gets to profit from your building.

Gamification is huge.  Aspects of that keep the worker bees very busy hustling, developing these platforms for those who actually ARE building with a darn good result, the corporations.  The worker bees build it for them. 

Then they sell it.  And profit.

It's not just SL.  I'm watching it on Twitter.  Boy, do they have the worker bees hooked on that Klout machine.  wow.  And well, that Facebook thing. All the other places have them working, too.

Letting work go undone on marketplace was huge message.  Pulling Jira is huge message.  What do you suppose is next?

Don't care much for the way they sent the message, no sir, not one bit... but seems that most companies do it that way now.

On this Gaming stuff: Definitely getting an education on that.  :)

Some day soon we will chat about the New Key. 

Among friends.

Not here.

:)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Talla Slade wrote:

@Czari

<snip>

I am sure role players will benefit from this way or working and if anything should happen to SL then at least people wont have their eggs all in one basket and the Open Metaverse is a growing market for merchants anyway.

 

I should love to meet you perhaps in OSgrid one day. IM me any time. I have the same name there and in SL.

It does sound like a lot of role players are the "first wave" so to speak, of the new/er grids.  In the case of the group to which I referred, they left SL entirely and are very happy on OSGrid.

Thank you, Talla - I would love to meet you as well.  I'm going to do some reading first to see if I can figure out how to set up a sim but I'll likely end up going...HEEEEELLPPP!  I do have an account on OSGrid but haven't done anything thus far except make it to my friends' rp area. 

I have the same name there as on SL as well. :)

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Deja Letov wrote:

Toy is Inwordlz the only other grid you are on currently?

Wish I had a short answer but you know me.  Generally speaking.... YES

IW is the only other grid outside SL that I maintain an actual permanent store.  Its the largest & most established grid outside of SL and the one that the largest % of SL residents head for to build a new life if they leave or expand outside of SL.  It has also been the #1 grid that most of my SL customers have asked me if I sold my products there for them to buy.  And if the demise of the current population of SL is predicted to quicken over the next 12 months as Rodvik transforms SL into a Gamers Platform, I would strongly predict that IW will be where most SL residents will move to as the new leader of the virtual worlds.  So I wanted to be well set up there to capture the growth and building phase of the grid (since I sell sim landscape sculpty terrains).  It is also a grid that has a proven cashout of their currency to US $

 

That being said, I have serviced a few other customer requests for my terrain packs to be used in other private and more isolated grids.  I do it in a couple ways... 

 

1)  I have set up an account on the grid and imported my sculpty maps and packs onto that user account and then execute a direct handover of the packs to the customer there but ask them to pay me in $Linden currency.  The reason I execute the sale in SL is because some of these other grids have an unknown means of me cashing out the local/private currency to RL $US currency.

 

2)  If I feel comfortable enough to trust the customer and they write me a notecard of their exact requirements and limits to how they plan to use the packs on that grid, I will execute the transaction to sell it in $Linden currency and then give them a specific one time exemption to my license that allows them to export my sculpty maps off the SL grid to their target grid.  For the most part, I will trust the customer if they are a current/past customer of my products in SL.  If they bought my products in SL then its powerful evidence for me to say they are honest and could be trusted to execute the transaction within the stated license and exceptions we agreed to,

 

 

 

So that how Toy Rolls on that front. :)

 

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Darrius Gothly wrote


I go into a lot more detail on my blog, but shutting down the JIRA is a signal I've seen in far too many tech companies to ignore. It's an act of "closing up ranks" and shutting off any outside interaction that indicates a company is struggling internally. As others have pointed out, the assumed reason (since no real reason was given, we can only assume) that the rancor and disruption present in some JIRA comments caused this is completely off-base. The real reason, at least based on my own experience in situations like this, is that the company is unable to contain the internal "turning of the tide" amongst their own people.

I think I have to agree with Deja a little here. It being a pattern in other companies is concerning, but not as significant as it may seam. The reality is that SL has moved along for years and years with major bugs existing this whole time. This is not to say that some things have not been fixed, but we all know of bugs that languish for years. My point is that SL has existed this whole time with all these bugs, so shutting down the jiras won't really change a whole lot. When something major goes wrong, we still have the forums, live chat, and the phone to use.

What this brings to my attention is the inefficiency of LL's bug fixing process. In SL, we have a direct comparison between 3rd Party viewers and LL's viewer. In a 3rd Party viewer, implementation of a feature or a bug fix can be almost instant. Now, it is easy to argue the good and bad of all this, but the bottom line is the time and the money. LL's process is slower because it is said to be more professional and thorough. Personally, I just see slower. Just take a look at the mesh deformer jira. It's agonizing to watch the process creep along.

So, to summarize my 2 cents, jiras didn't get fixed before, so it really doesn't matter much, and IMHO LL needs to stream line their whole bug fixing/feature development process.

 

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

What this brings to my attention is the inefficiency of LL's bug fixing process. In SL, we have a direct comparison between 3rd Party viewers and LL's viewer. In a 3rd Party viewer, implementation of a feature or a bug fix can be almost instant.

 

In April 2010 there was a bug report filed concerning a "loop hole" which could be used to spam a user and there was no way to identify or mute the sender.  In December 2011 WeNeverWorkedOnIt Linden closed it as relating to a "deprecated" viewer.    https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-21434

In April of 2012 this loop hole reared it's ugly head again when many Second Life Residents were subjected to a series of phishing attacks.  This loop hole was exploited to send some of these phishing attacks.  There is a long thread discussing this here:  http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/What-The-Scam-Is-Going-On/td-p/1477327/highlight/true

A new JIRA was filed and acknowledged.  https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28743

On April 11, Whirley posted that the loop hole had been fixed in Firestorm, along with the fix.  I haven't tested with the current Official Viewer, but there is no indication that it was ever fixed in it.

But you are right, the TPV's responded much faster than LL did.

 

 

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Medhue Simoni wrote:

What this brings to my attention is the inefficiency of LL's bug fixing process. In SL, we have a direct comparison between 3rd Party viewers and LL's viewer. In a 3rd Party viewer, implementation of a feature or a bug fix can be almost instant.

 

In April 2010 there was a bug report filed concerning a "loop hole" which could be used to spam a user and there was no way to identify or mute the sender.  In December 2011 WeNeverWorkedOnIt Linden closed it as relating to a "deprecated" viewer.   

In April of 2012 this loop hole reared it's ugly head again when many Second Life Residents were subjected to a series of phishing attacks.  This loop hole was exploited to send some of these phishing attacks.  There is a long thread discussing this here: 

A new JIRA was filed and acknowledged. 

On April 11, Whirley posted that the loop hole had been fixed in Firestorm, along with the fix.  I haven't tested with the current Official Viewer, but there is no indication that it was ever fixed in it.

But you are right, the TPV's responded much faster than LL did.

 

 

 

Thus the reason I will never use the official SL viewer.  Of course I haven't been going back to late 2007 or so when I was introduced to the Nicholaz viewer and used it until Phoenix.

 

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And I guess I will need to update my signature line because for all due and intent purposes the issue is closed.  I did seriously think there would be more interest in it.  https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-26420?

Surprisingly, the function still works with any V1 based Viewer so what ever needs to occur server side is still in place.  But again the original JIRA was closed by WeNeverWorkedOnIt Linden https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-17904

With the JIRA's closed it is now a dead issue.

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Czari Zenovka wrote:



Thus the reason I will never use the official SL viewer.  Of course I haven't been going back to late 2007 or so when I was introduced to the Nicholaz viewer and used it until Phoenix.

 

Yes. That and the fact that stuff on Linden's viewer is organized to make one's mouse button wear out at least twice as fast as it would for an Imprudence user (for example).

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, it is the lack of bug fixing that drives me crazy. Firestorm doesn't appeal to me at all, other than the pie menu. The last time I tried Firestorm, the notices of people logging in and out was driving me crazy, and it took me 2 hours of combing every setting to find where to turn it off. I have like tens of thousands of friends. Why it is even on by default blows my mind. In my opinion, Firestorm is just filled with a ton of useless crap that I would never, ever want to use. Top that with a completely unorganized preference window that differs from LL's in far too many ways. It's like they did all that just to be different, which is never good for any1.

I have always used the default viewer, and this is because I make products. To me, you first make sure it works perfectly in the default, then you go test things on 3rd party viewers. Yes, you can say more use others, but that is really not the point. People who use the other viewers are experienced enough to figure annomallies out on their own. People who use the default are generally new and those are the last people you want to confuse.

Kirsten's was 1 of my favorite viewers. I hear it does have a new release, but I cant do without the custom buttons now and I hear it doesn't have those yet.

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I have always been a firm and vocal advocate of "Your World, Your Choice Of Viewers,"  and that people should use what gives them individually the best performance.

I did have to go through a learning curve when I first started using Firestorm and now that I know it I can state that for ME it is the most logical layout. 

I don't build the way that you do, but if I did, I might find that to do what you do the Official Viewer actually is better.

Either way, I think we are all in harmony that the way some bugs get 'ignored' is a major bug in itself.

I have a lot of respect for the work that you do.

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Thanks Perrie! I think I sounded a bit harsh about Firestorm. I don't hate it, and I know it has all that stuff cause there are lots of people that like those features. For me tho, I don't rpg, I don't goto to clubs that often. Most of the time I sit on my sim and help customers or work on something. So, it is kind of easy to see why I don't want all those features.

I do use Exodus from time to time. Back in the day, I used to be a FPS gamer, and I made my own combat system in SL. Exodus's features appeal to that side of me.

I'd probably use a 3rd party viewer more often too but lately there have been endless streams of new SL features, IE - Mesh, mesh deformer - pathfinding - new script functions - and others. So, for now, I'm almost forced to use it, lol. I really miss the pie menu too.

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