Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Pamela Galli

Stunned

Recommended Posts


Czari Zenovka wrote:

Hey, Deja
:)

I think one of the reasons many people are outraged is because this decision cuts off an avenue of communication from resident to Lindens.  From reading most of the posts on this decision, both here, on the SLU forums and various blogs, it appears that the Lindens, or more likely Rod, are saying, "Go away, you're bothering us."

Then there's the whole technical side where many bugs/issues within SL were noticed first by residents, a jira was submitted, others perhaps contributed to the issue, and a resolution was found either sooner than it would have been if a Linden just happened on the issue or at all.  In Toy's VLM thread he lists the URL for the most recent UG meeting he attended and, from reading that, one can see even some Lindens are clueless about why this happened and they also concur that a lot of great "group think" in debugging came from the jiras.

 

Yes it was very clear in both the UG I attended as well as what I heard about and read in earlier UG meetings.  Even though they did not clearly speak out against the new policy - it didnt take a rocket scientist to realize that gagging the jira
WAS NOT
their idea.

(* critical typo in my posting - said *was and I meant "was not )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can at least agree it's possible that Rod is really driving the objectionable decisions.

But if that should happen to be true, then it's really just even that much more important for the owner for the Marketplace product to get onto the next flight to Venezuela, since she's perfectly lined up to take the fall for Rod any time now.


Toysoldier Thor wrote:


There is only ONE PERSION THAT ALL FINGERS POINT TO......  RODVIK.




Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find myself agreeing with WADE1 absolutely. Rodvik has a master plan to change the focus of Second Life to one of video gaming which I feel as a long time role player will ultimately degrade my experience. Given I have worked hard for several years to create my RPG without the aid of video gaming tools I kind of resent where Rodvik is taking us. The Jira gave vent to bug issues affecting us all and because we could voice an opinion there we at least felt it might add weight to the urgency to get something fixed. God knows there is still enough wrong with the system and all the so-called improvements have just added to the problems in my view.

For role players who, I might add, buy an awful lot of theme content, the system doesn't need to be as complex as Linden Labs want to make it for the sake of where they want to go in pursuit of the video gaming minions. For years we have paid through the nose and got nothing but disruptions, lag and unfixed bugs. What will it be in the end?


There could even be hyper inflation in the SL economy as the Gold Farmers move in to set up business high-leveling avatars and farming gold in SL video games. Don't think for a moment it can't happen. It just takes one successful game and that is what Rodvik Humble is hoping for.

Do we, the ones paying the bills, really need all this?

More said on my blog here: Second Life Video Gaming?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More and more, I get the sense that Lindens are 20 somethings with very thin skin. We all have to deal with the same customers. LL's customers are our customers, and you don't see us shutting off all communication with our customers. On the contrary, more and more of our own time is spent helping residents because they have no1 else to goto, or they can't find how to solve their own problems.

 

What if we did things the way LL does? What if we just fixed whatever bugs we felt like fixing, whenever we felt like fixing them? What if we waited for our own customers to fix our own bugs? What if we had our customers create new innovations, for us to take a year to implement them? What if we ignored crucial content related bugs, and let them go on for 6 years without even so much as looking at the bug? If we acted the same way that LL does, we would not be in business. The bottom line is that LL is only in business now because we all make up for their shortcomings, and this is how they reward us. The Lindens need to spend less time trying to avoid criticism and more time actually fixing stuff. IMHO, they have always slacked off on bug fixes, likely because they never get the right amount of staff to fix the bugs in a decent amount of time.

 

I see this all as a reaction to people ignoring the Lindens in the jiras. Yeah, some people get crazy and go on and on in the jira's about completely unrelated things, but the solution to this is not to close the jiras to the public. The solution is for a Linden to create a forum thread linking back to the jira. No1 wants to read thru all those comments on some of the jiras, but where else are people going to speak their mind on an issue? It is really not that hard to create a thread in the forums and update it with the latest bug changes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Toysoldier Thor wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:

Hey, Deja
:)

I think one of the reasons many people are outraged is because this decision cuts off an avenue of communication from resident to Lindens.  From reading most of the posts on this decision, both here, on the SLU forums and various blogs, it appears that the Lindens, or more likely Rod, are saying, "Go away, you're bothering us."

Then there's the whole technical side where many bugs/issues within SL were noticed first by residents, a jira was submitted, others perhaps contributed to the issue, and a resolution was found either sooner than it would have been if a Linden just happened on the issue or at all.  In Toy's VLM thread he lists the URL for the most recent UG meeting he attended and, from reading that, one can see even some Lindens are clueless about why this happened and they also concur that a lot of great "group think" in debugging came from the jiras.

Yes it was very clear in both the UG I attended as well as what I heard about and read in earlier UG meetings.  Even though they did not clearly speak out against the new policy - it didnt take a rocket scientist to realize that gagging the jira
WAS NOT
their idea.

( a critical typo in my posting - I said *was  and  I meant *was not - that changed the entire meaning of my posting.

Sorry about that. 

It seemed quite clear that the JIRA GAGGING was NOT their idea as they said they would miss it as it has a lot of logical value to both them and the SL customers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Totally agree with you Medhue,


If LL's concerns was that the Customer Jira was used too often as an opinion posting place, then they could have simply resolved the issue with a link to a respective forum posting with the same Jira #.

But again, I suspect that this was not the reason why Rodvik shut down the JIRA.  The problem with people posint opinions on a Jira has been around for years and LL did not seem overly concerned about it - just ignored those comments.

Rodvik shutting down the Jira is just a more visible example of is policy to "CLOSE / LOCK DOWN COMMIUNICATIONS FROM LL".  He sees the customer Jira as a form of "customer meddling into LL internal operations and knowledge".

Rdovik is executing a strategy of separating the long & strongly established unique culture that LL had fostered since its inception of having very open and multi-lateral inter-communications between LL and its customer base.

I would agree that this relationship between LL and its customers is quite unique in the industry but it has become an entrenched and critical relationship since LL's current staffing is the size and skills depth it is now because it has relied upon the massive knowledge and skills that the community willingly offers to LL.

With Rodvik shutting down this open relationship and moving LL to the kind of CLOSED COMPANY relationship that he is used to at EA, he has completely missed the fact that his company survives on this OPEN COMMUNICATIONS model.

BTW - do not be too surprise if over the next months, the LL User Group meetings will be stopped and that the WIKI's and BLOGs from LL would no longer be updated, and that even the forums might be pared down to minimal forums.

Rodvik wants to clam up is company and shelter LL's customers from LL internals.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Talla Slade wrote:

I find myself agreeing with WADE1 absolutely. Rodvik has a master plan to change the focus of Second Life to one of video gaming which I feel as a long time role player will ultimately degrade my experience. Given I have worked hard for several years to create my RPG without the aid of video gaming tools I kind of resent where Rodvik is taking us. The Jira gave vent to bug issues affecting us all and because we could voice an opinion there we at least felt it might add weight to the urgency to get something fixed. God knows there is still enough wrong with the system and all the so-called improvements have just added to the problems in my view.

 

For role players who, I might add, buy an awful lot of theme content, the system doesn't need to be as complex as Linden Labs want to make it for the sake of where they want to go in pursuit of the video gaming minions. For years we have paid through the nose and got nothing but disruptions, lag and unfixed bugs. What will it be in the end?

 

 

There could even be hyper inflation in the SL economy as the Gold Farmers move in to set up business high-leveling avatars and farming gold in SL video games. Don't think for a moment it can't happen. It just takes one successful game and that is what Rodvik Humble is hoping for.

 

Do we, the ones paying the bills, really need all this?

 

More said on my blog here:

That was a very interesting blog on the situation. Your thesis seems to fit very well with the events that have been happening lately. In essence, those who use SL as a social network, which is the vast majority of those who use it, will be "bugged" out for the gamers. Linden Lab can not have it both ways.  I guess it is time to start looking for vial virtual worlds outside of SL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Czari Zenovka wrote:

Hey, Deja
:)

I think one of the reasons many people are outraged is because this decision cuts off an avenue of communication from resident to Lindens.  From reading most of the posts on this decision, both here, on the SLU forums and various blogs, it appears that the Lindens, or more likely Rod, are saying, "Go away, you're bothering us."

Then there's the whole technical side where many bugs/issues within SL were noticed first by residents, a jira was submitted, others perhaps contributed to the issue, and a resolution was found either sooner than it would have been if a Linden just happened on the issue or at all.  In Toy's VLM thread he lists the URL for the most recent UG meeting he attended and, from reading that, one can see even some Lindens are clueless about why this happened and they also concur that a lot of great "group think" in debugging came from the jiras.

 

Oh no, I totally understand why people are outraged...I guess I just don't see how this is the "fall of SL". I guess I'm just used to changes happening in SL, nobody likes them, everyone claims it's the end of SL and it's dying...then people go on and so does SL. I'm totally sympathetic towards people not liking the descision, I agree it sucks, but I just don't see the same dramatic effect of it as some others seem to do. I will continue to create, continue to sell and see what happens, but my being able to access a jira has yet to effect me personally.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Toysoldier Thor wrote:


Deja Letov wrote:


Jacob Cagney wrote:

I am not sure why anyone is surprised, stunned, whatever.

Rod is a gamer.  Rod comes from a gamer backbround. Rod hired gamers when he took over as CEO.

99.9999999% of gamer companies do not have public bug reports.

 

I agree with this. The way SL has been going lately, it wasn't long before they started adopting the ways of other gaming companies. To be honest...as a gamer...I've VERY rarely used the Jira. I tend to file support tickets or post something in the forums, since that's what I do with other games. Sure when someone posts a link and wants me to go vote on it, I will just to be supportive.
But this change, really won't affect me, since it's not a system I use regularly.
I'm not saying I agree with it and I honestly think it sucks...but I guess I just don't see the same "the sky is falling" attitude about this. I guess maybe it's more or less going to affect people who have had major bug issues to report or who regularly follow jira's?

Ahhh but Deja.....

This is where you are not correct (statement in red).  Because you personally dont use the JIRA and actively participate in the jira to report bugs and work with LL on jira issues to diagnose and resolve SL grid, Viewer, and Marketplace problems, doesnt mean it doesnt affect you. 

It will.

You might not participate in JIRA's but a smaller but quite dedicated portion of the SL community actively engages in many jira issues and works to identify, report, diagnose, and resolve countless SL-wide problems via the jira.  I have seen many very serious SL / Marketplace issues solved thanks 100% directly because of LL working with this smaller portion of SL residents via the jira.

Many of thes solved bugs directly impacted you.  If the jira did not exist - you would have suffered many times for much much longer from serious bugs on the marketplace when LL deployed DD and maturity filters and search "improvement" and the move from xstreet to MP, etc. etc. etc.

You would have suffered much longer from viewer bugs, and the countless LL created bugs from new server code releases if these SL residents with a lot of skills and talents and problem solving skills did not assist LL staff in isolating the problems and fixing them.

So I hate to be blunt but....

Rodvik gagging the customer jira will 100% affect you in the months to come (as long as SL stays alive).  There is no question about that.

LL staff is very small and their skills talent pool is not deep enough to develop and support the size and complexity of environment that SL has become.  THEY NEED SL STAFF as freebie support staff.   Rodvik has just fired 100's of volunteer staff from LL's support team.  He is just not sharp enough to realize he did this.

I can accept that Toy and you're probably right. I guess we will all just have to wait and see. I did follow your link you gave and gave my opinion on the matter in that survey. I was kind of a meany in it too. LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Deja Letov wrote:

Oh no, I totally understand why people are outraged...I guess I just don't see how this is the "fall of SL". I guess I'm just used to changes happening in SL, nobody likes them, everyone claims it's the end of SL and it's dying...then people go on and so does SL. I'm totally sympathetic towards people not liking the descision, I agree it sucks, but I just don't see the same dramatic effect of it as some others seem to do. I will continue to create, continue to sell and see what happens, but my being able to access a jira has yet to effect me personally. 

I understand your reasoning Deja; SL just keeps on plugging away no matter how many times or how stridently various people predict its fall. I'm one of those that has gained a rep as a "chicken little" even though I've never actually predicted the imminent end of SL .. until now.

I go into a lot more detail on my blog, but shutting down the JIRA is a signal I've seen in far too many tech companies to ignore. It's an act of "closing up ranks" and shutting off any outside interaction that indicates a company is struggling internally. As others have pointed out, the assumed reason (since no real reason was given, we can only assume) that the rancor and disruption present in some JIRA comments caused this is completely off-base. The real reason, at least based on my own experience in situations like this, is that the company is unable to contain the internal "turning of the tide" amongst their own people.

They can't just fire the malcontents (as M Linden did not that long ago) because it's now reached a point where they would totally gut their talent pool. Even though they may not like it, they need those malcontents to keep working as long as they can. So now they've shut down the JIRA to stop giving their own people yet another place to "participate" in the anti-management sentiment.

By that I do not mean that the LL employees are engaging in "down with the MAN" protests .. nor anything close. But they do read and feed off those JIRA Issues, and they have begun to sympathize with a lot of the frustrations voiced there. They start wondering "why don't we fix these things?" and "why can't we take another month and fix this right?" It starts to eat at their willingness to turn a blind eye ... so it has to be stopped.

Rodvik can't very well order his people to "stop reading the JIRA" because in its previous incarnation it was THE way bugs were reported and fixes initiated. So instead he has taken the step of turning the JIRA into single-file cattle runs which totally eliminates any chance of a "group sentiment" growing and possibly infecting his people more.

Time will tell Deja .. as you say. But for my money, I'm putting a pretty hefty wager on "SL won't be here by end of September 2013." (At least not the SL we've all always known.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Darrius Gothly wrote:

Time will tell Deja .. as you say. But for my money, I'm putting a pretty hefty wager on "SL won't be here by end of September 2013." (At least not the SL we've all always known.)


Of course, according to the Mayan calendar, none of us will be here after Dec. 21, 2012, which would really suck because my birthday is Dec. 24. lol

Sorry Darrius, that just popped into my mind reading your last sentence. ;)

Disclaimer - I place no belief in the Mayan calendar prophecy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As Darrius was pointing out... I cant recall in any commerce threads that I have been involved in nor my own long history of doomsday speaking that a specific date was ever mentioned.... until Darrius's last posting :)   But when many of us have been "chicken Littling" over the years, we were not wrong. 

If you look around, the sky has been falling - but as is the case with most business evolutions / devolutions... things do not happen overnight.

I am going to speak for myself.  Since early 2009 when I started to post in the merchant forums of Secondlife, I can safely point a finger at myself as being one of the biggest chicken littles you are referring to.  In fact, you can ask Dartagan himself to confirm that I was one of the chief "nay sayers" since 2009.  We were pretty much the Generals on either side of the debate about LL's business model and the health of its future.  I was the King of the Commerce Thread trolls and he was the King of the Merchant cheerleaders.  The debates were pretty heated at the times and the Lindens never liked me because of my harsh negative opinions.

But the reason I was a Chicken Little since 2009 was because I already saw clear signs that there were several fundamental business evolution flaws showing with LL.  When I was predicting LL's ultimate demise in 2009, it was because LL's business organization and corporate culture was refusing to shift from its early "Initiation & Contageon" business evolution stage to the more mature "Control" stage.

Forget about LL as a company, several businesses that cannot successfully evolve to the CONTROL stage often end up dying on the vine or get acquired by stronger business that are being vultures.  I wont go into all the signs I was seeing then and continue to see now, but I will say that Sr Management immaturity and LL's unbreakable startup ego culture and "we are successful so why should the business model change" entrenchment were and are primary factors.

That being said Deja, I do not believe I was not wrong about LL's sky falling.  Look all around you in the SL / LL environment and compare it to how SL was in 2008.  The sky has been has been falling and the fall is picking up speed. 

 

  • In June 2010 LL's laid off 1/3 of its staff.  This was the one major event that finally made Dartagan come to my "dark side" and drop his pom poms :)
  • Last year 1800 sims were abandoned. 
  • In the past 2 months ~ 800 sims were abandoned. 
  • The deflation of the SL pricing and economy has already significantly collapsed. 
  • Sales for may merchants are degrading.  Large numbers of SL residents have been migrating to more competitive priced grids or left SL all together. 
  • As Darrius, myself and others have mentioned... Rodvik has started executing a "close all communications with the customers" policy - Gagging Jiras is a screaming example of Rod's policy
  • LL has been pulling out of any active participation of inworld activities (like its own 8th birthday)
  • Rod is desperately seeking out an entirely new poor-fit customer base (the "Gamer") for SL to tap into while at the same time pretty much sticking his middle finger at the current existing customer base.  This is a "Last Gasp" move which if it fails - which many of us are convinced it will - he will have destroyed the loyal customer base and not secured the new customer base.  As such I can see September 2013 as being a potential demise of SL as we know it.

The thing is that in the business world when a very successful upset fails to continue growing and begins its process of imploding, it doesnt happen in a few months.  It can take years before the ultimate demise - whatever that looks like - will occur.

So.... the Sky has been and is falling.... the debris just hasnt reached the ground just yet.  STAY TUNED !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Kampu Oyen wrote:


Pamela Galli wrote:



1. What bunch of ppl? I can think of two. And hardly a big surprise to anyone.

2. I bet I am not the only one who has only the vaguest idea what this conspiracy is that you harp on in every thread, and wishes it would stop.

 

1) The one someone apparently had banned opportunistically for being their competitor and at least 3 others unrelated, if they might like to come forward since th ban has been lifted.

2) You're the one talking about a conspiracy. I'm talking about one bad egg at LL gradually infecting everyone around her with complicity in her bad decisions. Probably because the revenue losses she has caused puts them in a bad place to try to contest her legal position with them; a legal position in which she "owns" a bunch of code on the basis that she has decided how to make them try to modify it for her after it she decided to buy it off the rack, either without really thinking things through like a mentally healthy tech professional, or with an intention to do deliberate harm to LL.

Why are you continuing to subtly side with this person instead of with her critics?

What's in it for you, exactly?

 

 

 

Oh why do I bother, this is so ridiculous. Everyone here has competitors in this forum, most likely -- why would one of us pick just ONE other competitor and bribe the moderators to ban them? 

And now you are implying that I know something about this evil Linden who you claim is doing something -- I am still not clear what -- to destroy everyone else's business. You really take the cake, and I would not not care, except you derail every thread with this stuff. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with you, Toy and Darrius in much of what is being said here but I don't think that  Second Life is dead or that the sky is falling in. I think more sims will be lost in the coming months and it will increase next January went the education grants run out but then it will level out and next year might in fact see more user traffic as Rod's plans take hold. I don't think there will be a growth in regions though as the new traffic will be video gamers with little or no interest in the existing community. In deed, I can see the existing community being sidelined even more than they are now as LL concentrates on the new people. What I do expect is more of the existing users to actually leave.

Those who do leave may go on to explore opportunities in the Opensim grids which is no bad idea if they approach them with an open mind and a willingness to learn new ways to operate and make money. I think role players in particular could benefit especially for I, myself while still renting 2 RPG sims in SL,  have built up some regions on OSgrid and now I have a Hypergrid connected standalone world too and it costs me a fraction of what SL costs. However, as I said, I still have my sims in SL and some of my players are happy to play in both SL and the open Metaverse. Opensim is much more stable now and Hypergrid 2, which is expected soon,  promises better content security where the creator can decide what goods can leave the grid thus reducing the chance of copying stuff while still making it possible to travel with full appearance and selling stuff on grids you can trust - yes, reputations are being established.

Anyway, I do think LL is taking a huge risk and I expect more steps to be taken to silence decent in the SL community.

My blog...  Second Life Video Gaming?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Toysoldier Thor wrote:

As Darrius was pointing out... I cant recall in any commerce threads that I have been involved in nor my own long history of doomsday speaking that a specific date was ever mentioned.... until Darrius's last posting
:)
   But when many of us have been "chicken Littling" over the years, we were not wrong. 

If you look around, the sky has been falling - but as is the case with most business evolutions / devolutions... things do not happen overnight.

I am going to speak for myself.  Since early 2009 when I started to post in the merchant forums of Secondlife, I can safely point a finger at myself as being one of the biggest chicken littles you are referring to.  In fact, you can ask Dartagan himself to confirm that I was one of the chief "nay sayers" since 2009.  We were pretty much the Generals on either side of the debate about LL's business model and the health of its future.  I was the King of the Commerce Thread trolls and he was the King of the Merchant cheerleaders.  The debates were pretty heated at the times and the Lindens never liked me because of my harsh negative opinions.

But the reason I was a Chicken Little since 2009 was because I already saw clear signs that there were several fundamental business evolution flaws showing with LL.  When I was predicting LL's ultimate demise in 2009, it was because LL's business organization and corporate culture was refusing to shift from its early "Initiation & Contageon" business evolution stage to the more mature "Control" stage.

Forget about LL as a company, several businesses that cannot successfully evolve to the CONTROL stage often end up dying on the vine or get acquired by stronger business that are being vultures.  I wont go into all the signs I was seeing then and continue to see now, but I will say that Sr Management immaturity and LL's unbreakable startup ego culture and "we are successful so why should the business model change" entrenchment were and are primary factors.

That being said Deja, I do not believe I was not wrong about LL's sky falling.  Look all around you in the SL / LL environment and compare it to how SL was in 2008.  The sky has been has been falling and the fall is picking up speed. 

 
  • In June 2010 LL's laid off 1/3 of its staff.  This was the one major event that finally made Dartagan come to my "dark side" and drop his pom poms
    :)
  • Last year 1800 sims were abandoned. 
  • In the past 2 months ~ 800 sims were abandoned. 
  • The deflation of the SL pricing and economy has already significantly collapsed. 
  • Sales for may merchants are degrading.  Large numbers of SL residents have been migrating to more competitive priced grids or left SL all together. 
  • As Darrius, myself and others have mentioned... Rodvik has started executing a "close all communications with the customers" policy - Gagging Jiras is a screaming example of Rod's policy
  • LL has been pulling out of any active participation of inworld activities (like its own 8th birthday)
  • Rod is desperately seeking out an entirely new poor-fit customer base (the "Gamer") for SL to tap into while at the same time pretty much sticking his middle finger at the current existing customer base.  This is a "Last Gasp" move which if it fails - which many of us are convinced it will - he will have destroyed the loyal customer base and not secured the new customer base.  As such I can see September 2013 as being a potential demise of SL as we know it.

The thing is that in the business world when a very successful upset fails to continue growing and begins its process of imploding, it doesnt happen in a few months.  It can take years before the ultimate demise - whatever that looks like - will occur.

So.... the Sky has been and is falling.... the debris just hasnt reached the ground just yet.  STAY TUNED !

I agree things do not happen overnight. Absolutely. I do business consulting and I've seen it take that time. But I've also seem some HUGE F ups and the company turn it right around by completely rotating out almost the entire user base. I'm not saying that is their plan here, but with the onset of Valve...it wouldn't surprise me if their hope is to replace a lot of those missing people who have left SL with a whole new fresh crop of people to disappoint.

And then you will also have people, who have completely opposite experiences of the negative ones or who feel they aren't affected by so much of the changes in place (and not just the jira, I'm talking years of changes). Me...I'm an opportunist. Last year 1800 sims were abandoned like you said and several businesses have left SL. What did that do for me? Well to be honest, it's given me the exact opposite results of your next line. Instead of deflation or pricing or decreased sales, I think I've picked up the slack where a lot of business people have left. I've taken over many of their customers and now because of it, my sales have been the highest they ever have been. I've also not ever lowered my prices, not since day 1. Now, I'm not stupid, i'm not going to sit here and say it's all due to others leaving and they have no where else to shop, a lot of it is my own marketing efforts, but I do feel the lack of choices plays into it. I have other stores as well that are getting the same kind of thing.

I do think you are right though that it is definitely a really piss poor thing to do when you **bleep** all of your loyal customer base and exchange it for a new one. We are the ones spending money right now, we are the ones bringing life to SL. Just not so convinced it will be dying out anytime soon....but just in case...I'm also expanding into some other grids. :)  Although I'd love to know where the more competive grids are because all the grids I have checked out so far have been pretty dead, which would explain the low tier, but what good is low tier if you can't turn a profit due to no traffic?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Kampu Oyen wrote:


Pamela Galli wrote:



1. What bunch of ppl? I can think of two. And hardly a big surprise to anyone.

2. I bet I am not the only one who has only the vaguest idea what this conspiracy is that you harp on in every thread, and wishes it would stop.

 

1) The one someone apparently had banned opportunistically for being their competitor and at least 3 others unrelated, if they might like to come forward since th ban has been lifted.

2) You're the one talking about a conspiracy. I'm talking about one bad egg at LL gradually infecting everyone around her with complicity in her bad decisions. Probably because the revenue losses she has caused puts them in a bad place to try to contest her legal position with them; a legal position in which she "owns" a bunch of code on the basis that she has decided how to make them try to modify it for her after it she decided to buy it off the rack, either without really thinking things through like a mentally healthy tech professional, or with an intention to do deliberate harm to LL.

Why are you continuing to subtly side with this person instead of with her critics?

What's in it for you, exactly?

 

 

 

 :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ Deja

You said...

"I'm also expanding into some other grids.  Although I'd love to know where the more competive grids are because all the grids I have checked out so far have been pretty dead, which would explain the low tier, but what good is low tier if you can't turn a profit due to no traffic?"

As a merchant expanding into the open Metaverse grids the choices are limited if you think only about traffic and not in what the potential is for the long term. However,  the busiest walled garden grid is easily Inworldz but they are not likely to open up to hypergrid as they have forked server code that is somewhat different from the mainstream Opensim core code. Most open grids work on the mainstream code which is very stable and will support hypergrid.

A new version of Hypergrid, HG2, is expected to be released soon which I mentioned in my last post. Once that is in use more grids will open up to the greater Metaverse so this is what I mean by taking a long term view and getting established. It is not expensive to have an outlet on the open Metaverse so being in both worlds can't be bad. I don't say jump in and abandon SL and I will say you wont make a fortune yet :womansad: but the market is going to grow and already there are over 200 separate grids with around 100 connecting with the rest via HG so the market is somewhat hidden presently until you understand how it is all building. Each of those grids have small communities, some very small and others bigger. There is a growing demand for virtual goods I am sure and online market sites like Total Avatar Shop are building a reputation and have their sights firmly set.

The Open Metaverse is a growing market.

check my blog for more information and articles on building business in Opensim...

This article in particular... Second Life Shrinks as the Hidden Metaverse Expands

and this one... Building Role Play Across the Hypergrid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Talla Slade wrote:

@

You said...

"I'm also expanding into some other grids.  Although I'd love to know where the more competive grids are because all the grids I have checked out so far have been pretty dead, which would explain the low tier, but what good is low tier if you can't turn a profit due to no traffic?"

As a merchant expanding into the open Metaverse grids the choices are limited if you think only about traffic and not in what the potential is for the long term. However,  the busiest walled garden grid is easily Inworldz but they are not likely to open up to hypergrid as they have forked server code that is somewhat different from the mainstream Opensim core code. Most open grids work on the mainstream code which is very stable and will support hypergrid.

 

A new version of Hypergrid, HG2, is expected to be released soon which I mentioned in my last post. Once that is in use more grids will open up to the greater Metaverse so this is what I mean by taking a long term view and getting established. It is not expensive to have an outlet on the open Metaverse so being in both worlds can't be bad. I don't say jump in and abandon SL and I will say you wont make a fortune yet :womansad: but the market is going to grow and already there are over 200 separate grids with around 100 connecting with the rest via HG so the market is somewhat hidden presently until you understand how it is all building. Each of those grids have small communities, some very small and others bigger. There is a growing demand for virtual goods I am sure and online market sites like Total Avatar Shop are building a reputation and have their sights firmly set.

 

The Open Metaverse is a growing market.

 

check my blog for more information and articles on building business in Opensim...

 

This article in particular...

 

and this one...

I can definitely see the long term potential, the problem is getting there. Getting businesses (people) like mine, to go in and spend money on tier, to make absolutely nothing. When you're talking about seeing a grid with less than 100 people on at once...it's hard to fork over even the $75 a month. it just feels like a waste. however, I am definitely on board with trying other places. Right now I am in a little shop on a friend's sim that he owns, trying out avination. So far, no sales, but I haven't really done much marketing in there yet. In worldz will be my next attempt and hopefully can make a go of it. Thankfully...my favorite full perm vendors are all there :)

To be honest, this is my first venture into other virtual worlds. Before the last few months. I didn't know a whole lot about these other places. i'm still not entirely 100% certain as to how they all tie together, but I'm learning. Of course, i'm working on learning it even more now that I would like to go into these other worlds.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This may be a silly question, but are all these grids setup the same way SL is with linden or some sort of currency that can be cashed out? I know inworldz and avination are. But is it pretty standard to assume all the rest are as well? i'm aslo curious how these other "grids" (am i thinking of the right word here? ) are found. Like if someone opened a sim on the osgrid how are people finding them since it's not a closed grid. or am i just completely confused?

Really nice blog by the way...I'm reading over past posts now. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gaga (Talla), isn't it true that when you travel from grid to grid that any particular grid owner could suck up your entire inventory and change it to full perm?  I know progress is being made with the new Hypergrid development to allow safer commerce, but it isn't in place yet, and I still feel suspicious regarding how much protection it would actually provide.

And what about the philosophy Opensim was founded on..that all content should be free? I know you said on another blog that you don't know anyone controlling Opensim in that way..but aren't they the coders and so would have ultimate control? And what about the woman who created free content for Opensim for years,  who was recently bullied into near suicide because she wanted to go to some of the safer, closed grids and make a little money? Is it safe to participate in a system whose basic organizing principle is forced sharing?

For now I only feel safe in the closed Opensim grids like Inworldz, Spoton3d, and Avination...but I am keeping an eye on how Opensim progresses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Luna I'm glad you brought that up. I was actually just reading on her blog where she was talking in another post about the fact that anything can be copybotted at any time. There are also not TOS in place to stop copyright infringement. I was getting kinda excited reading about all of this today, but it seems like in it's current state all this open sim stuff is more for freebie content stuff and not really an ideal place for merchants to go to to expand a business. Obviously as you said, closed grids like Avination and Inworldz are ideal and so I'm looking into those more and more. I haven't heard of Spoton3d, I will definitely check that one out. Any other closed grid systems I should look into?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Talla Slade wrote:

I think role players in particular could benefit
especially for I, myself while still renting 2 RPG sims in SL,  have built up some regions on OSgrid and now I have a Hypergrid connected standalone world too and it costs me a fraction of what SL costs. 

 

I concur on the bolded section.  Prior to coming to SL in 2007, I was an active part of a rp community on IRC for 15 years.  That particular group/channel is the oldest of its kind from its beginning on IRC that is still in existence under the same group name and with the same core members.  Having been together so long, these members have a very strong bond and are extremely dedicated to maintaining the group as well as welcoming new people who have an interest in joining.

We came as a group to SL and continued our rp here.  I discovered other interests in SL and discontinued the rp as an active member but remained in touch with the core group.  The group rented land from a well-known land baron who specializes in land for this niche and added to it as they grew.  They set up a successful in world market within their sim in which many members of the larger niche rp community had satellite locations.  They grew in membership, although this particular group is not one who actively recruits new members; they prefer quality and adherence to principles established long ago.

How this relates to your post is that about 6-9 months ago they moved to OSGrid and now have 13 grids that make up their "City." They are ecstatic to be able to have this much space. They keep in contact with us "oldbies" from IRC via regular email updates.  Many core members of this group came to SL in 2007 and for various reasons didn't like it and for some, their PCs could not handle SL even back in 2007 and are now re-united with the group on OSGrid.  This group could care less about how populated that grid is or isn't as they have always been rather insular while still welcoming others.  From the updates I receive, more people who either knew about them on IRC, SL, or are just finding them on OSGrid are joining and.  Yes this is just one small community of the larger rp community in their niche, but they had an excellent reputation in SL and were well-known within the larger community SL rp community.

I have no particular interest in rejoining the rp, but I have created an account on OSGrid to visit them and, once I figure out how all this works, I plan on creating a sim (my friends on OSGrid keep saying it's free, so not sure if that means creating an Opensim .. sim...is free?  At any rate, I would love to create a private sim where I can continue honing my building skills, importing what I can per LL's export policy with plans to eventually connect it to OSGrid and/or whatever opensim grids I can.  I will read your recommended blog posts to see how to proceed.

Thank you for the information, Talla. :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi again Deja

Yes, I wanted you and others to have a balanced view of Opensim and the present state of the open Metaverse. As you read on my blog stuff can be copied on any grid (even Second Life) and I did mention Inworldz as a closed grid which offers the same level of protection that SL offers but in any event one has to decide which grids that will trust. However, that all said, Avination is a good choice to as they are a closed grid as well and, what's more, Melanie who owns that grid is one of the developers of Hypergrid and working on HG2. Mel has said she will enable Hypergrid travel and allow in potential buyers once the HG2 content security is in place and working ( I did say all this). Anyway, Presently closed grids are the safe option but if you are selling any full perm textures or whatever then you can really sell those anywhere with a creative commons licence so that is not really a problem.


As for what Luna said No it is not true your inventory can be taken as you travel via Hypergrid. It is perfectly safe because it stays on you home grid and only items you actually rez on the grid you visit can be copied by the grid owner if they don't value their reputation. What you rez has to be called from your home grid because your inventory is not actually traveling with you and even your appearance is being called and as you travel. That's basic HG. In HG2 the perms will finally be respected so one would not travel to a grid not running HG2 and it is as simple as that really so the security will be much better and every grid running HG2 will be a semi-walled garden in effect.

Luna also said, "And what about the philosophy Opensim was founded on..that all content should be free? "

Well, that is easy to say and I don't know where you got that from so perhaps you can point to the proof?

Fact is no such notion exists. Opensim is open source server code and can be used to run a grid by anyone with the knowledge to set it up. This is why I advise caution and getting to know the open Metaverse before jumping in head first. Many people are into making money and setting up grids to do just that. Unlike Second Life the open Metaverse is like IRC where people work from many servers of their own or hosted for them and it is possible to travel between them if they have Hypergrid enabled. You don't have to travel actually. You can sit in one of the grids and be open for business and the customers will come to you from their grids. Not it is up to you to decide if you trust that grid to allow your stuff to travel there. This called doing your home work.

My blog tries to help people understand the open Metaverse and I don't try to mislead anyone. I want the open Metaverse to be a great environment for business and none-profit alike. I am there to help if asked and on my blog there are links to vendors  and resources sites. Soon I will have a Grid search as well to help people find grids to visit.

At the end of the day you can only dip a toe in and explore the possibilities for yourself and your business. If I can help I will otherwise I wish you every success either here or in the open Metaverse.

BTW, you have some great stock on Market place Deja. And Luna, yes, I have always blogged in the name of Gaga but I am Talla Slade on Second Life and OSgrid. I run role play sims and make, script and sell my own stuff for what it is worth to know that.

My blog: Metaverse Traveller

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gaga I think you need to do a little more research into how Opensim/Osgrid was founded, and how this manifested recently in those who bullied the above mentioned woman into near suicide (because she wouldn't share her content anymore and joined another grid they despised), and how a woman's beautiful artwork (painted plants) were stolen and how she was subsequently trashed for simply standing up to them and reporting the theft.

I am not criticizing what you are trying to do in Opensim, and i enjoy reading your articles and know that you build well, and I can see from your writings that you don't believe in theft. I know that there are many others like you in not-for-profit Opensim grids. I hope that Opensim will one day evolve into what you envision - a world where both commerce and sharing can exist side by side - where both sides give respect to the other. It looks like this HG2 is a step in the right direction.

My only reason for posting here was to caution content creators reading this thread to be careful. Many have spent years developing their content and depend on sales to pay for some of their bills. My side will always be for the freelancing content creator in the Metaverse, however that evolves. It has not been an easy road - you've got proprietary game companies trying to squeeze more and more from you, and people yelling at you that you're either not a TRUE artist or a spiritual person if you want to be compensated for your efforts, and those in the Opensim realm thinking everything should be shared "for the common good", and customers who try to get you to do custom work for 5 cents an hour. I just have to say, as I posted on another thread...can't a freelancin girl just earn a little money around here?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Deja yes there are some other grids that look promising. I feel more secure developing a store on a grid that's been around for awhile though - a place more tested and where you can read about users experiences on blogs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×