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Leia36

Child AVs and ToS

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Solar Legion wrote:

Dear, I've hashed this ut with people of far more importance than you

LOL you are so important wow..oh can I have your autograph?

 

- there's nothing to "man up" about. Especially when you misrepresent me so boldly.

No indeed, having a pair doesn't necessarily qualify you as I am sure you know.

 

I did not mention any specific form of Role Play - and now you have.

You Wrote

It's already been proven in other areas such as murder, rape, theft, etc.

So ermm yes you did mention other RP, murder and rape

 

Do your own homework - I'm not here to spoon feed you or anyone else. I'm here to prod you along until you engage those nice little neurons of yours and do a bit more than parrot from morality.

Still you run and hide, You refuse to back up your argument with anything else other than your high and mighty opinion. Oh Lord Solar your pontifications must be divinely inspired.

BTW who made you the morality God of SL, last time I checked LL was.

 

Really glad you are thousands of miles away from my kids, wish it was further.

Your entire hypothesis falls down on one simple fact. Second life's population is miniscule compared to the worlds.

Letting child sex happen here would open LL to so many issues on so many fronts, It boggles the mind that someone would actually contemplate it.

And don't bother to reply with another spoon feeding post, Its quite clear that such a high and mighty personage such as yourself is far more informed then us lowly mortals. Must be fantastic to be so omnipotent

 

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Leia36 wrote:

Zero tolerance works both ways. Modern society has Zero tolerance within the law for rape. I doubt anyone has been harmed by those policies.

tell that to the multitudes who've been falsely accused and ended up in prison because an accusation of rape by a woman was all the proof the law needed in many countries that rape had taken place.

 

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*hugs Perrie, sorry about your friends. And I understand that problem all to well.

I agree with what you say with one exception

Child AVs don't belong in sexual situations in my opinion.

Sorry for Truncating your post. Enjoy the butterflys  :)

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Over simplification

Modern society involves due process and no system is perfect. However policies are made with the ablative absolute in mind, the regulations that govern those policies are where the problems and the solutions to those problems lie

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jwenting wrote:


Leia36 wrote:

Zero tolerance works both ways. Modern society has Zero tolerance within the law for rape. I doubt anyone has been harmed by those policies.

tell that to the multitudes who've been falsely accused and ended up in prison because an accusation of rape by a woman was all the proof the law needed in many countries that rape had taken place.   

 

Which countries do you have in mind?   In the UK, the prosecution have to make the jury sure that the defendant is guilty -- nothing less than sure will do -- and I understand the burden and standard of proof are similar in the USA.   The usual complaint is that it's very difficult to get a rape conviction, not that it's too easy, though that can't be the case in the countries you have in mind.

 

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No dear - you're the one who has been acting high and mighty, demanding I give you information that you yourself refudse to even lift a single finger to acquire.

Go ahead and find the exact post, the exact line wherein I explicitly mentioned rape and murder RP - Oh wait! You won't find it because it does not exist!

Now, lets get a few things stright here hmm?

1. You have no children - nope, don't care about proof, you have no children. It's an emotional ploy and quite frankly one I've seen all too often. Drop it.

2. From the moment you first demanded proof, you showed that you are the one who believes herself to be high and mighty. You. Are. No One.

3. Second Life is a Microcosm - why yes, yes it is. Guess what dear? That only enforces what I have told you already! Nice try though ... When a population is "miniscule" it tends to exhibit the entire range of human strengths and weaknesses. This is a fact.

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Fine I did some looking, Here are the reasons why Boston University's Center for Gender, Sexuality and Activism (CGSA) Refused to participate in sexual assault roleplay


http://www.bu.edu/cgsa/2012/04/19/response-to-sexual-assault-symposium-bu-ideas-festival/

■It is inappropriate to “role-play” sexual assault. Sexual assault is not a game. Role-playing creates a script for sexual assault by exemplifying behaviors that are dangerous and could lead to acts of sexual assault.

■Insensitive: The role-playing exercise is predicated on the assumption that there are multiple ways to interpret a case of sexual assault–or that there might be ambiguity or a “gray area” when it occurs. This disempowers and casts doubt on survivors.

■“Sexual Assault/Date Rape”: Separating sexual assault and “date rape” trivializes the experiences of survivors by suggesting that “date rape” is separate from and less severe than sexual assault. The term “date rape” itself is an inappropriate term for its intended meaning because it suggests that it must happen either during a “date” or be perpetrated by someone dating the survivor.

■The role-playing event, as admitted by Professor Hobert in the Task Force meeting on Wednesday, April 11th has no data to back up the success rate he claims. The event has also only been used for middle and high school students and is inappropriate for its intended audience on Saturday.

■The proposed portrayal of a sexual assault could not possibly represent the experiences of all survivors, and seeking to do so belittles their experiences.

 

YOU WROTE

Ah yes - the old "show me proof or it isn't true, oh wait you can't prove it" argument.

It's already been proven in other areas such as murder, rape, theft, etc.

People who are damaged enough to do X would have done X no matter what. That has already been proven.

This "debate" is more or less the same as "Video Games cause violence" - no, they don't. The tendency to be violent causes violence.

I highlight

It's already been proven in other areas such as murder, rape, theft, etc.

So it does exsist your post, you wrote it, you own it.

YOU WROTE

It's already been proven

I cannot find one shred of evidence anywhere to support your stance. You are grandstanding because I have argued you into a corner and your pride prevents you from admitting that you are wrong. Your ego is so fragile that once you make a stand on an issue you will not back down.

Once again I ask you, Show me the proof. You can't because their is none.

-----------------

1. You have no children - nope, don't care about proof, you have no children. It's an emotional ploy and quite frankly one I've seen all too often. Drop it.

Do not mention my children again, ever.

From the moment you first demanded proof, you showed that you are the one who believes herself to be high and mighty. You. Are. No One.

You made statements and you will not show where you aquired that knowledge. Because you cannot, it does not exist. I am just a woman who would protect the ones who cannot protect themselves. I never claimed otherwise.

Second Life is a Microcosm - why yes, yes it is. Guess what dear? That only enforces what I have told you already! Nice try though ... When a population is "miniscule" it tends to exhibit the entire range of human strengths and weaknesses. This is a fact.

The scope of Second life is not broad enough to encompass every aspect of real life. Attempting to right the wrongs of RL here is dangerous at best.

You protest to loudly. What are you hiding? Why do you advocate the rape of child avatars on Second Life I wonder? ...Got something to hide?

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Leia36 wrote:

You protest to loudly. What are you hiding? Why do you advocate the rape of child avatars on Second Life I wonder? ...Got something to hide?

Ahaha, I predicted this! It is EXACTLY the reason why your argument is entirely dishonest - you're deliberately confusing and morally-clouding the argument. I wish I could say I was surprised, but as long as you continue to mis-read peoples' posts (and assign ridiculous presumptions to their words), you will continue to miss the issue.

That you call it "the rape of child avatars" is both ridiculous and telling. You're using terms to deliberately cause faux moral outrage. There are no 'children' involved, only avatars. No-one is being 'raped'. As far as I can tell no-one here would 'advocate' it, simply because the behaviour IS banned in Second Life - I, for one, am simply disagreeing with your reasoning.

Your 'moral' stance is misguided; it's not a criterion that anyone can use. Learn more about this issue and please try harder to discuss subjects without the use of verbal traps, false correlations, mis-appropriated morality, confusing the issue and deliberately mis-reading what people say.

Good luck to you.

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 EXACTLY the reason why your argument is entirely dishonest

My argument is dishonest? How do you reach that conclusion? I have stated over and over that in my opinion bdsm paraphernalia is inappropriate on child avatars

Is it dishonest to question someone's supposed statement of fact when they refuse to back it up with fact?

Continue to mis-read peoples' posts

I am and will analyze the meaning behind your words. What you are communicating via the written language.

You will continue to miss the issue.

My OP is the issue, whether or not bdsm paraphernalia is appropriate on child avatars. Everything else is off topic

That you call it "the rape of child avatars" is both ridiculous and telling.

If this discussion every made the main stream media what do you think they would call it?

Your 'moral' stance is misguided; it's not a criterion that anyone can use. Learn more about this issue and please try harder to discuss subjects without the use verbal traps, false correlations, mis-appropriated morality and deliberately mis-reading what people say.

The only moral standard in play here is whether or not bdsm paraphernalia is appropriate on child avatars. Everything else is off topic

I cannot be held responsible for your arguments. You made statements I disagree and I will tell you why

 

Good luck to you to

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Leia36 wrote:

My OP is the issue, whether or not bdsm paraphernalia is appropriate on child avatars. Everything else is off topic

How come your discussion is "whether or not bdsm paraphernalia is appropriate on child avatars", while other posters in this thread are accused (by you) of "advocating child avatar rape" and should be "kept away from [RL] kids"?

This is why your argument is dishonest. I'm not motivated to help you understand your mistakes any further.

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Because this person holds the view that any form of RP is acceptable

Solar Legion wrote:

Honestly, I firmly believe that there should be no restrictions on allowed RP anywhere. My reasoning is simple enough: Anyone who would take the step beyond questionable RP and actually engage in some of those acts in real life .... They'll do so anyway. This whole reasoning concerning RP being a gateway for it to happen ... It's nothing but bunk.

If anything, RP for most people - even the most questionable scenarios - is a means to prevent or to remove/reduce any desire to commit such acts in real life.

There's plenty that I find detestable .... But I'm not going to tell anyone what they can and cannot portray in play.


Ergo if "no restrictions on allowed RP anywhere" that would include my discussion. ie He would find bdsm paraphernalia on child avatars appropriate.

I took that as a challenge to my OP and I asked him to prove his statement, which he did not and cannot.

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I'm not going to defend Solar, he's more than capable of doing that for himself.

You should have kept to your own topic, rather than allowing these waters to become murky. No-one will argue in defence of many of the things you've confused your issue to be, least of all me. I don't want to prove a case where any simulated depiction of a child within a sexual or violent situation is considered 'okay', but I do want to point out that the way you're using tricks and traps is undermining your cause.

You should be able to prove easily that what you saw was, definitively, against the Terms of Service (if it wasn't, then it seems to me that LL are proving you wrong), and you should try and discuss sensitive issues (where people are known to quickly take things very personally) without using hyperbolic, 'mainstream media headline' style equivilents to whip people into moral outrage (especially considering that NO-ONE is disputing LL's policies, we're all on your side to some degree) . Further the "you either agree with me, or you condone this behaviour" trope has been running around this thread far too often. It is possible to disagree with your conclusion, without disagreeing with your premise.

I am disappointed with how this discussion has turned out (though I admit, it has been more civil than most similar discussions), and find it unfortunate that you seem unable to take lessons away from many of the good posts in this thread. I resist my own advice to stop posting in this, in the hope that my time isn't being wasted.

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Fair enough, all good points.  except you seem to think I am trying to trap people when all I am doing is analyzing what they write.

As for going off topic, when people use examples and situations to try to get their message across, you cannot fault me for using those same topics to disagree. Like you say it is a very sensitive issue and perhaps I went too far at times, for which I apologize. Nobody is perfect, certainly not me.

As for the OP its self, I believe I have proven with all the evidence supplied that what I witnessed was against the ToS, however that is for LL to decide.

As for the discussion itself, I have learned a bit, as we all do every day, and I will certainly use those lessons in the future. That being said, It was not a futile debate, and I apologize if any of my comments where hurtful.

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Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't really see the point of debating a lot of this.  

Whether something is or isn't against LL's ToS is a question only LL can answer -- or, at least, it's only LL's answer to the question that really matters.  

Whether it's against the criminal law or not depends on what jurisdiction we're talking about, and is best left to professionals in that jurisdiction.  

ToS or not, people have every right to feel shocked or offended by something, and to complain to the sim owner or to LL about it, and the sim owner or LL can act, or not, as they feel appropriate.   Child avatars are banned from many adult sims anyway, whatever they're wearing, even thought the ToS allow them there.   I imagine many places, whatever their rating, would take a dim view of child avatars in BDSM gear.   And if they don't, then one of the visitors to the sim is bound, sooner or later, to draw the matter to LL's attention, and LL may or may not act on it (see above).

What more needs to be said?   

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Ahahahaha!

You have no children - period. I will say it as many times as I please dear.

Nope - you missed the mark - again. I did not mention RP at all in the post you have quoted. I mentioned areas wherein one has tried to make a correlation between those crimes and other media that contained them. You are now stretching yourself very thin here dear.

You are now bordering on making an accusation you cannot possibly back up dear. Now - here's how this is going to go from here on out: You're either going to make your accusation directly and open yourself up to serious legal issue which you do not want to open or you're going to drop that line of reasoning.

Until you do, remember that any post you make from here on out that borders on such an accusation can and will be treated as it is - a breach of the ToS.

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't really see the point of debating a lot of this.  

Whether something is or isn't against LL's ToS is a question only LL can answer -- or, at least, it's only LL's answer to the question that really matters.  

Whether it's against the criminal law or not depends on what jurisdiction we're talking about, and is best left to professionals in that jurisdiction.  

ToS or not, people have every right to feel shocked or offended by something, and to complain to the sim owner or to LL about it, and the sim owner or LL can act, or not, as they feel appropriate.   Child avatars are banned from many adult sims anyway, whatever they're wearing, even thought the ToS allow them there.   I imagine many places, whatever their rating, would take a dim view of child avatars in BDSM gear.   And if they don't, then one of the visitors to the sim is bound, sooner or later, to draw the matter to LL's attention, and LL may or may not act on it (see above).

What more needs to be said?   

I think no one could have put it better than this, Innula.

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You replied to my reply concerning proof about your statements.

I HIGHLIGHT

Anyone who would take the step beyond questionable RP and actually engage in some of those acts in real life .... They'll do so anyway
If anything, RP for most people - even the most questionable scenarios - is a means to prevent or to remove/reduce any desire to commit such acts in real life.
It's already been proven in other areas such as murder, rape, theft, etc.

So according to your statement any form of RP is acceptable and It has been proven as a means of prevention

I have supplied you with a leading real world intuitions thinking on this subject (which you choose to ignore because it is counter to your argument)

You have supplied NOTHING

Now you are making threats against me because I have logically argued you into a place you cannot get out of. I am thoroughly sick and tired of repeating myself. Not once have you showed any inclination to back your statements up with fact or proof, just bombast and verbosity.

You are clearly baiting me and I refuse to feed the troll anymore.

 

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No dear, I have ignored what you have prvided because you chose to make a baseless accusation and made demands which you are in no position to make.

I have ignored what you have provided because you are incapable of parsing even basic English - you utterly failed to present a direct quote from me making refference to any specific form of Role Play.

I have ignored what you have provided because you have continually misrepresented what I have written.

I have ignored what you have provided because you - in your current reply - have taken quotes out of context in an attempt to bolster your own lack of logical thinking.

As far as I am concerned, you have provided nothing.

I have made no threats here dear - you have by making baseless accusations.

Own your own words, learn how to properly parse the English Language and stop deliberately misrepresenting what other people say.

Oh - and so you are aware dear?

What you provided was a bit of information regarding a single, emotionally charged topic. A topic you went out of your way to look for anything to prove your own point concerning.

It is worthless and will remain worthless until such a time as you have done proper research. You know, examining everything related to Role Play, Video Games, Television, Movies and all other forms of media for all issues concerning the mind.

I do not troll dear - refusal to give a nobody the information they demand is not trolling. It just helps to out the people who were nerver serious about doing their own real research anyway.

Have a good day and rest of your life Leia - now I am done here. This entire back and forth has shown me that you're not worth the time, not worth the effort and quite frankly not worth the data each post takes up in response. You have misrepresented my words, made a veiled, false accusation, taken quotes out of context and read things into what I have written that are nowhere to be found in my writing.

When I write, I do not hide meanings behind my words. Anything whatsoever that you read into what I have written? It's all coing right from your own mind. Boy is what you have come up with very telling indeed.

Let this be a life lesson for you Leia - respond to what is there not what you think is there.

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I am done arguing with you, You are indeed a troll of the first order

Dont make assumptions on me and my life from your limited experience of me. I have got better things to do than sit here justifying myself to you. And I know I am not alone in my thinking.

Child Avatars DO NOT belong in any sexual situation. That's fact and until you can show otherwise that fact stands.

You are indeed a nasty piece of work and I will be happy never to hear from you again

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Leia36 wrote:

I am done arguing with you, You are indeed a troll of the first order

Dont make assumptions on me and my life from your limited experience of me. I have got better things to do than sit here justifying myself to you. And I know I am not alone in my thinking.

Child Avatars DO NOT belong in any sexual situation. That's fact and until you can show otherwise that fact stands.

You are indeed a nasty piece of work and I will be happy never to hear from you again

Some things - and people - are not worth getting irritated by, especially the ones who would court a particular type of controversy.

Follow your head and heart in equal measure, follow the ToS, have courage in your own convictions, and things will always work out the way they are meant to.

 

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Leia36 wrote:

 

Child Avatars DO NOT belong in any sexual situation. That's fact and until you can show otherwise that fact stands.

And women should not be collared and dragged around on a leash.  It's disgusting  that a woman would allow herself to be degraded like that.

And doing it in SL motivates men to do it to women in RL.

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Leia36 wrote:

 

Child Avatars DO NOT belong in any sexual situation. That's fact and until you can show otherwise that fact stands.

And women should not be collared and dragged around on a leash.  It's disgusting  that a woman would allow herself to be degraded like that.

And doing it in SL motivates men to do it to women in RL.

 

Do you know what, Perrie? Context is always key. 

None of us were there, when the original post photo was taken. And none of us have watched the OP with her chosen form of roleplay.

Although I hate to admit it, I have really enjoyed the latest series of Celebrity Big Brother, and during one task, one of the women ended up leashed to one of the men.  She was meant to be the slave, and as is often the case, the slave was the one in charge. I don't know if the OP is into being dragged around and pissed on in public, or whether her relationship with her own master is more tame than that, and I do not see the point of even going into that - not least because her activities are not against ToS.

I absolutely hate it when threads go so far off the point, and I am not having a go directly at you, Perrie, because I understand the point you are attempting to make and why you are making it.

The OP was sounding us out by starting this thread; to see what we would have done in the same situation, but honestly, without actually being there in that very moment and witnessing the full effect of the interaction between the demon and the young-looking avatar, none of us can truly say what was the right action to take. 

Can we not be a little more adult and end this thread now? Please.

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Thank you Marigold, Your words mean a lot to me.

I freely admit that nothing gets me quite so worked up as children.

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