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Leia36

Child AVs and ToS

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

 just imagine all the tier LL could rake in if they set the ToS so that SL wasnt banned thruout muchuv the Islamic world ..

In how many countries other than Iran do you say SL is banned?   I ask because I don't know.  

thats a really good question Innula .. i dont know either .. i just googled "countries second life is banned in" & i still dont know .. the thing i got the most hits about was 'second life banned in Australia' !! but those links were from 2009 & obviously somethings changed cuz i have friends in SL from Australia .. 1 link said that SL is banned in the United Arab Emirates but can be accessed via proxy server .. & another said the same thing about mainland China altho it also said that SL was readily available in Hong Kong .. 1 poster to a site said that SL is widely banned thruout the Persian Gulf region & another said that SL isnt outrite banned in Saudi Arabia but you could get in trubble w/ the religious police if they caught you playing SL in like Starbucks .. im not sure how reliable any of this is & dont know what all countries SL is banned in .. Iran & the UAE prolly for sure tho

heres the thing tho .. LL got in trouble in Germany & Belgium over sexual ageplay .. & in the US over gambling .. so they set the ToS to conform with the laws of those nations .. well are they going to do the same around the world ?? homosexuality is punishable by death in Uganda .. so is LL going to ban homosexual depictions to conform w/ Ugandan law ?? prolly not cuz Uganda is a tiny market .. but the Muslim world isnt so tiny .. the Muslim population of Europe has tripled in the past 30 yrs .. the Muslim population of western Europe is the size of the entire German population .. if Jews continue to have such a low birthrate & Israeli Muslims such a high one .. even Israel will be majority Muslim 1uv these days .. as the growing Muslim population gains political power will LL decide to change the ToS so as to not offend Euro Muslims? we already know that they will in order to please Germany & Belgium .. whata bout when German & Belgian politics begins to seriously reflect the influence of Islam ??

as things now stand it appears that LL will make their ToS conform to the laws of nations that provide them w/ significant revenue .. LL doesnt seem to care about the laws of other nations they receive little or no income from .. so if the laws of nations LL receives significant income from are arbitrary or oppressive the ToS become arbitrary & oppressive ..

i just find all this to be obscenely mercenary & venal .. IMO either LL ought to make the ToS conform to the laws of EVERY nation or they ought to just let people do whatever they want so long as no actual meat world person is harmed

Jeanne

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JeanneAnne wrote:

 

i just find all this to be obscenely mercenary & venal .. IMO either LL ought to make the ToS conform to the laws of EVERY nation.......................

Jeanne

In that case there would be no SL.

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

 

i just find all this to be obscenely mercenary & venal .. IMO either LL ought to make the ToS conform to the laws of EVERY nation.......................

Jeanne

In that case there would be no SL.

 

howa bout LL pull a romney then .. & set up a shell company in the netherlands antilles or bermuda or somewheres .. run sl from there .. allow gambling & sexual ageplay & whatever else ppl are in2 .. & thumb their noses @ the us & germany & belgium & their oppressive laws ??

Jeanne

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

 

i just find all this to be obscenely mercenary & venal .. IMO either LL ought to make the ToS conform to the laws of EVERY nation.......................

Jeanne

In that case there would be no SL.

 

Ooooo, Perrie, what will we do if that ever happens? (smiley quakey chattering teeth)

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This actually is my second time coming back to this thread and reading it.

I could be missing it but I can find no where that the OP states that these two Ava's said they wanted to engage in sexual age play.

There was a thread about a year ago that I haven't been able to dig out started by someone who liked RP'ing a slave child.  Thee was no sexual activity in his RP. It's was a very interesting discussion.

Why anyone would want to RP being a child slave or the Master is above me.  Personally I don't understand the mentality that would lead someone to do that.  And I believe that most of us (including myself) would find the idea of a child slave abhorrent.

Back in the Thread I referred to I stated my feelings about this loud and clear.

And yet I still have to ask myself, who am I to play 'thought police.'  Personally I don't like portrayals of domestic violence, rape, and related.  I don't engage in them and generally don't date any one who is into it in SL.  And the friends I do have that engage in this know my feelings about it.

But I find myself having to ask the question, who am I or who are you to define what is acceptable role play?

Where do we draw the line?  Despite my feelings, I for one am very reluctant to dictate to another person what they can or can't do in SL.

 

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Echo Hermit wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

 

i just find all this to be obscenely mercenary & venal .. IMO either LL ought to make the ToS conform to the laws of EVERY nation.......................

Jeanne

In that case there would be no SL.

 

Ooooo, Perrie, what will we do if that ever happens? (smiley quakey chattering teeth)

Get a Real Life? 

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Echo Hermit wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

 

i just find all this to be obscenely mercenary & venal .. IMO either LL ought to make the ToS conform to the laws of EVERY nation.......................

Jeanne

In that case there would be no SL.

 

Ooooo, Perrie, what will we do if that ever happens? (smiley quakey chattering teeth)

Get a Real Life? 

 

Don't remind me of that :matte-motes-frown:

I've been in real life today. I went down to my flat - haven't been there for three weeks because of looking after my brother at his house, and all that goes with it.  My flat is great, totally stuck in the dark ages. I don't have a land line there, or a computer, I take a very basic mobile phone with me just in case my brother needs me to return, and I can hop in a taxi and be back within ten minutes.  I always have to 'run the gauntlet' with my neighbours, who for some reason seem to think I am in with the local authority housing folks and can get things fixed when they cannot (!)

Highlight was returning to Pete's and having Indian food, then watching 'Manhunter' on TV from 1986.  Marvellous what Hannibal Lecter could do with a telephone with no dial. Ahhh real life in the 1980s (stares off into space dreamily - life was so good back then).

 

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pancake_bunny.jpg

 


Echo Hermit wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Echo Hermit wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

 

i just find all this to be obscenely mercenary & venal .. IMO either LL ought to make the ToS conform to the laws of EVERY nation.......................

Jeanne

In that case there would be no SL.

 

Ooooo, Perrie, what will we do if that ever happens? (smiley quakey chattering teeth)

Get a Real Life? 

 

Don't remind me of that :matte-motes-frown:

 

I'm sorry.


Here's a Bunny with a Pancake to make ammends.

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:

pancake_bunny.jpg

 

Echo Hermit wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Echo Hermit wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

 

i just find all this to be obscenely mercenary & venal .. IMO either LL ought to make the ToS conform to the laws of EVERY nation.......................

Jeanne

In that case there would be no SL.

 

Ooooo, Perrie, what will we do if that ever happens? (smiley quakey chattering teeth)

Get a Real Life? 

 

Don't remind me of that :matte-motes-frown:

 

I'm sorry.

 

Here's a Bunny with a Pancake to make ammends.

 

Thanksx.

/me reaches for the maple syrup.

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JeanneAnne wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

 

i just find all this to be obscenely mercenary & venal .. IMO either LL ought to make the ToS conform to the laws of EVERY nation.......................

Jeanne

In that case there would be no SL.

 

howa bout LL pull a romney then .. & set up a shell company in the netherlands antilles or bermuda or somewheres .. run sl from there .. allow gambling & sexual ageplay & whatever else ppl are in2 .. & thumb their noses @ the us & germany & belgium & their oppressive laws ??

Jeanne

 

Well, I wouldn't mind moving to Bermuda though I like'd the climate in Australia better.  But they are pretty restrictive also.

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:

 

But I find myself having to ask the question, who am I or who are you to define what is acceptable role play?

who are Linden Lab execs to define it? who is the US congress or German parliment to do so? do we NEED corporate/government collusion controling our lives to this extent?

its a VIRTUAL world .. NO meat world organisms are being harmed !!

so WTF is the ToS all about when it comes to declaring that some sick cartoon activity between consenting adults is acceptable .. & other sick cartoon activity between consenting adults isnt ??

specially when there are kids aplenty in SL doing whatever after theyve lied about their age ..

specially when the ToS is unenforcable on private sims w/ ban lines where no1 but the pervs who pay tier there can know whats going on ..

the utter hypocrisy of it all is just mind blowing

Jeanne

 

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JeanneAnne wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

 

But I find myself having to ask the question, who am I or who are you to define what is acceptable role play?

who are Linden Lab execs to define it? who is the US congress or German parliment to do so? do we NEED corporate/government collusion controling our lives to this extent?

its a VIRTUAL world .. NO meat world organisms are being harmed !!

so WTF is the ToS all about when it comes to declaring that some sick cartoon activity between consenting adults is acceptable .. & other sick cartoon activity between consenting adults isnt ??

specially when there are kids aplenty in SL doing whatever after theyve lied about their age ..

specially when the ToS is unenforcable on private sims w/ ban lines where no1 but the pervs who pay tier there can know whats going on ..

the utter hypocrisy of it all is just mind blowing

Jeanne

 

JeanneAnne, you're going to have to calm it down, or this thread will get pulled, which will be unfair to the OP who has just asked a simple question about a particular situation. You know already that every time there is a thread about this topic it ends up degenerating into the whole big mass of rights and wrongs and legals in this and that country. The only thing I will say about private sims and ToS and all of that is LL have the ability to see all, and Second Life is their garden, so it is - at the end of the day - totally up to Linden Lab what action they choose to take or not to take. Hypocritical or contradictory, their word is final. And that's my final word too.

 

 

 

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Echo Hermit wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

 

But I find myself having to ask the question, who am I or who are you to define what is acceptable role play?

who are Linden Lab execs to define it? who is the US congress or German parliment to do so? do we NEED corporate/government collusion controling our lives to this extent?

its a VIRTUAL world .. NO meat world organisms are being harmed !!

so WTF is the ToS all about when it comes to declaring that some sick cartoon activity between consenting adults is acceptable .. & other sick cartoon activity between consenting adults isnt ??

specially when there are kids aplenty in SL doing whatever after theyve lied about their age ..

specially when the ToS is unenforcable on private sims w/ ban lines where no1 but the pervs who pay tier there can know whats going on ..

the utter hypocrisy of it all is just mind blowing

Jeanne

 

JeanneAnne, you're going to have to calm it down, or this thread will get pulled, which will be unfair to the OP who has just asked a simple question about a particular situation. You know already that every time there is a thread about this topic it ends up degenerating into the whole big mass of rights and wrongs and legals in this and that country. The only thing I will say about private sims and ToS and all of that is LL have the ability to see all, and Second Life is their garden, so it is - at the end of the day - totally up to Linden Lab what action they choose to take or not to take. Hypocritical or contradictory, their word is final. And that's my final word too.

 

 

 

I AM CALM !!! LoL j/k :cattongue:

partuv me likes it when threads get pulled or i get banned .. cuz that just proves my point about censorship

you know good & well that LL has laid off staff & in no way do they have sufficient personnel to be spying on what all goes on in private sims .. if no AR is filed then as far as LL is concerned it didnt happen .. lotsuv times it didnt happen far as theyre concerned even when ARs are filed .. you know good & well that as long as someone is paying tier its in LL's financial best interest to turn a blind eye to ToS violations that go on there .. so long as no1 else sees & reports it .. which is exactly the purpose ban lines serve  ~sheesh~

Jeanne

 

 

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JeanneAnne wrote:


Echo Hermit wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

 

But I find myself having to ask the question, who am I or who are you to define what is acceptable role play?

who are Linden Lab execs to define it? who is the US congress or German parliment to do so? do we NEED corporate/government collusion controling our lives to this extent?

its a VIRTUAL world .. NO meat world organisms are being harmed !!

so WTF is the ToS all about when it comes to declaring that some sick cartoon activity between consenting adults is acceptable .. & other sick cartoon activity between consenting adults isnt ??

specially when there are kids aplenty in SL doing whatever after theyve lied about their age ..

specially when the ToS is unenforcable on private sims w/ ban lines where no1 but the pervs who pay tier there can know whats going on ..

the utter hypocrisy of it all is just mind blowing

Jeanne

 

JeanneAnne, you're going to have to calm it down, or this thread will get pulled, which will be unfair to the OP who has just asked a simple question about a particular situation. You know already that every time there is a thread about this topic it ends up degenerating into the whole big mass of rights and wrongs and legals in this and that country. The only thing I will say about private sims and ToS and all of that is LL have the ability to see all, and Second Life is their garden, so it is - at the end of the day - totally up to Linden Lab what action they choose to take or not to take. Hypocritical or contradictory, their word is final. And that's my final word too.

 

 

 

I AM CALM !!! LoL j/k :cattongue:

partuv me likes it when threads get pulled or i get banned .. cuz that just proves my point about censorship

you know good & well that LL has laid off staff & in no way do they have sufficient personnel to be spying on what all goes on in private sims .. if no AR is filed then as far as LL is concerned it didnt happen .. lotsuv times it didnt happen far as theyre concerned even when ARs are filed .. you know good & well that as long as someone is paying tier its in LL's financial best interest to turn a blind eye to ToS violations that go on there .. so long as no1 else sees & reports it .. which is exactly the purpose ban lines serve  ~sheesh~

Jeanne

 

 

I actually want to cry with frustration.

None of us knows what exactly goes on behind the scenes at Linden Lab.  All we ever do is speculate, and most likely get it wrong every bloody time.

 

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Echo Hermit wrote:


 


I actually want to cry with frustration.

None of us knows what exactly goes on behind the scenes at Linden Lab.  All we ever do is speculate, and most likely get it wrong every bloody time.

 

im sorry Echo .. please dont cry .. i dont mean to hurt anyones feelings .. ~hugggzzzz~~ ~

Jeanne

 

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JeanneAnne wrote:

you know good & well that LL has laid off staff & in no way do they have sufficient personnel to be spying on what all goes on in private sims .. if no AR is filed then as far as LL is concerned it didnt happen .. lotsuv times it didnt happen far as theyre concerned even when ARs are filed .. you know good & well that as long as someone is paying tier its in LL's financial best interest to turn a blind eye to ToS violations that go on there .. so long as no1 else sees & reports it .. which is exactly the purpose ban lines serve  ~sheesh~

Jeanne

 

 I don't really see the connection between banlines and private sims.  

If I close off public access to a parcel,  you'll see ban lines round the parcel.  

If, however, someone has a private sim, and closes off public access, at what point does anyone see any banlines, so long as it doesn't have any contiguous sims (which a private sim won't unless the owner wants a contiguous sim) ?

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

you know good & well that LL has laid off staff & in no way do they have sufficient personnel to be spying on what all goes on in private sims .. if no AR is filed then as far as LL is concerned it didnt happen .. lotsuv times it didnt happen far as theyre concerned even when ARs are filed .. you know good & well that as long as someone is paying tier its in LL's financial best interest to turn a blind eye to ToS violations that go on there .. so long as no1 else sees & reports it .. which is exactly the purpose ban lines serve  ~sheesh~

Jeanne

 

 I don't really see the connection between banlines and private sims.  

If I close off public access to a parcel,  you'll see ban lines round the parcel.  

If, however, someone has a private sim, and closes off public access, at what point does anyone see any banlines,
 so long as it doesn't have any contiguous sims (which a private sim won't unless the owner wants a contiguous sim) 
?

maybe i dont use the jargon correctly Innula ..

what im talking about is that if access to "land" is restricted by the "owner" .. other ppl cant see what goes on there & cant file ARs for ToS violation .. & this .. to my mind .. is what closing off public access .. however its done or whatever you call it .. is designed to do: to allow "land owners" to do whatever they want .. whether its illegal or violates the ToS .. w/out there being any witnesses

i suppose that theoretically LL staff could spy or eavesdrop but theres no way their limited personnel could sample even a tiny percentage of what all goes on in SL .. & would we want them to ?!? i dont think so .. they only respond to ARs and if ther no1 allowed around besides the pervs themselves .. thers are no ARs

but why is any of this even important? if there was no censorship .. if consenting adults were "allowed" by the corporate/governmental "authorities" to do as they please .. why would any of it even be an issue?

& dont get me wrong either .. i dont personally "approve" of lotsuv stuff that goes on in SL .. but what business is it of mine? so long as no real people .. & certainly no actual children .. are harmed? the hypocrisy is blatant .. if LL was honestly concerned for the welfare of children theyd ensure that age verification was authentic .. but they dont .. they take ppl's word that theyre >18 .. so actual children get in & rp sexual activities w/ adult looking avatars .. while consenting actual adults get in trouble for doing stuff ~sick as it may be~ that doesnt actually harm anyone .. its all just ridiculous .. & thats my point

Jeanne

edited a couple typos 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Generally, I have to say I'm sceptical about the dangers facing unsupervised minors who lie their way into SL.   If SL Adult Content is the worst thing they encounter on the internet when their parents are not watching, then I think their parents should count themselves very fortunate indeed.      And, had I teenage children, I'd be far more concerned about their having unsupervised access to cellphones and social networking sites than to SL, adult or otherwise.

well said, children see worse on Cartoon Network and especially Disney Channel every day than all but the most extreme stuff they may encounter in Second Life (and let's not even start about the evening news and prime time television).

 

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Syo Emerald wrote:

For me its not the point that a child could be behind the childavatar (which isn't really likly to happen) but I find it disgusting to think about those two avatars Leia saw on the sim she went to.

An adult who desires to idea of having a childavatar collared is a sick weirdo

I see children leashed by their own parents most every day I am out in the main shopping areas here. Supposedly it's to prevent them wandering off and getting lost, but is it?

And of course parents should be able to expect obedience from their children. The current idea that children should be free to do whatever they like, not subject to any authority or restrictions is sick, leads to a total disrespect for private property and a generation raised as criminals that don't even realise what they're doing is wrong because no one ever told them.

So effectively children should be collared by their parents metaphorically (and by their teachers at school) in that they're subject to unquestioning authority of those adults.

 

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So then should we all disregard the ToS and just live and let live? What's next? Child AVs with xcite attachments?

I suppose we all have different views on how to treat children in RL My OP had nothing to do with RL children, nothing at all, in fact if you look at the child AVs profile its quite clear she is an adult. Why couldn't she have used a adult or even a late teens AV?  If she had, not one word would have been said by anyone, least of all me.

I must also add that the creation of or contemplation of any sort of child sexuality in any format is totally unacceptable in my opinion.

I really wish I could post the local chat, it makes it very clear what the collar was intended for.

Starting to regret creating this thread.

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Leia36 wrote:

So then should we all disregard the ToS and just live and let live? What's next? Child AVs with xcite attachments?

I suppose we all have different views on how to treat children in RL My OP had nothing to do with RL children, nothing at all, in fact if you look at the child AVs profile its quite clear she is an adult. Why couldn't she have used a adult or even a late teens AV?  If she had, not one word would have been said by anyone, least of all me.

I must also add that the creation of or contemplation of any sort of child sexuality in any format is totally unacceptable
in my opinion.

I really wish I could post the local chat, it makes it very clear what the collar was intended for.

Starting to regret creating this thread.

I'm with you 100% - the creation of or contemplation of any sort of child sexuality in any format is totally unacceptable.

But as far as you being right  or wrong to have started this thread, you were not to know that every single time there is an ageplay thread started, 9 times out of 10 they get pulled.  It is a highly emotive subject, and every single poster believes their opinion to be the right one. 

And this is a place for discussion; people do have a right to their own opinion, as much as you or I might disagree with that opinion.

I know only too well what the chatlog would have been like, and I hope you were able to put that into a screenshot when submitting an AR to LL.  Sometimes it may seem that the ToS is there just so LL are seen to be doing something, but it does stand for something, and you're not wrong to have moral values. Not wrong at all.

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I know, it makes me sick. Zero tolerance is the only possible outlook I will support in this respect. As far as other peoples opinions are concerned I see your point, If things are not discussed openly the lack of communication can lead to misunderstandings that could result in regrettable incidents.

The chat log was uploaded along with the address of this thread. No reply as yet  though.

Thank you Echo, You are a great help :)

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This is not only very well said Perrie but it is a far more polite way to say what I have been saying for years in regard to the divide between the world of RP and Reality.

The long and short answer is - of course - No one has the right to dictate acceptable RP scenarios to anyone they are not directly engaged in 'playing' with. I lost track of the number of times (in SL and prior to it, in public chat rooms made for RP) I ran across a scenario being played out that pushed my squick buttons. In the case of the old chats, I just used the Ignore features and contiued to play. Never bothered to give them any further thought no matter what had been going on (and yes, that includes scenarios which would net a visit from law enforcement these days). When it comes to SL, at the time I was running into these scenarios (back when I actually bothered to explore the grid) I either pretended they were not there .... or I teleported out.

Honestly, I firmly believe that there should be no restrictions on allowed RP anywhere. My reasoning is simple enough: Anyone who would take the step beyond questionable RP and actually engage in some of those acts in real life .... They'll do so anyway. This whole reasoning concerning RP being a gateway for it to happen ... it's nothing but bunk.

If anything, RP for most people - even the most questionable scenarios - is a means to prevent or to remove/reduce any desire to commit such acts in real life.

There's plenty that I find detestable .... But I'm not going to tell anyone what they can and cannot portray in play.

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Solar Legion wrote:

Honestly, I firmly believe that there should be 
no
restrictions on allowed RP 
anywhere
. My reasoning is simple enough: Anyone who would take the step beyond questionable RP and actually engage in some of those acts in real life .... They'll do so anyway. This whole reasoning concerning RP being a gateway for it to happen ... It's nothing but bunk.

If anything, RP for most people - even the most questionable scenarios - is a means to 
prevent
or to 
remove/reduce
any desire to commit such acts in real life.

There's plenty that I find detestable .... But I'm not going to tell anyone what they can and cannot portray in play.

 

Your opinion, not fact. There is no proof and no possible way to prove it either way. It could just as easily result in someone wanting to try it in RL. There is no possible way to prove it either way. None at all. So ultimately with any sort of child AV sexuality, zero tolerance is the only possible outlook that can be contemplated In my opinion.

This also reminds me of the whole "gateway drugs" debate.

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Solar Legion wrote:

Anyone who would take the step beyond questionable RP and actually engage in some of those acts in real life .... They'll do so anyway. This whole reasoning concerning RP being a gateway for it to happen ... it's nothing but bunk.

If anything, RP for most people - even the most questionable scenarios - is a means to 
prevent
or to 
remove/reduce
any desire to commit such acts in real life.

no one knows if this is true or not .. in some cases pervs who get worked up RPing their pervy thing may go out & do it in RL ..in other cases maybe RPing their pervy thing prevents them from doing it in RL .. No One Knows .. this would be a great subject for research .. if it could be conducted ethically

Jeanne

 

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