Phantom Child Link Broken - Impact on you business

[Rya Nitely]

Many builders have used the phantom child link to hide the huge bound boxes of sculpties. Now that this so called 'bug' has been patched many buildings that use sculpties are going to break. I don't believe that the pathfinder rollout has hit all sims yet but when it does then the problem will raise its head in a big way.

Merchants will be called on to fix broken items. You will have to redo all your items that used the phantom link script. And here are the best two options - 

1. Sell your items as 2 link sets ( phantom and solid) and give instructions on putting them together

2. Change the Physics Shape Type of your item to convex hull and then change all the sculpties to 'None'. This will increase the Land Impact (prim count) of every sculpty to 2 instead of 1. It could potentially double the prim count (LI). Not a very good option but all we will have.

Some of the problems I can foresee are these -  redoing every item that is affected, rewriting instructions, giving customer support to previous customers when the item breaks, sending out updates and trying to explain the increase in prim count, plus the potential to get low ratings because the item doesn't work properly.

This subject has been raised a few times in the LSL scripting, Technology and SL Server forums, but not here as far as I can see. And it is the merchants who will be feel the greatest impact.

It doesn't appear as if LL will fix the damage, except in the way mentioned above - which is a poor substitute. What about all the items that are already out there - waiting to break.

[Freecilla Kuhn]

I find when I use that script I often have to edit the prim, open the script and select Reset and it is fine again. However it is for this reason I just don't use the script, too bothersome. Anyone can do this even if they own it but do not have permission to see the script because they can see the Reset button and click it, at least it used to be that way, I am not sure if it still is, (should be).

Or you could sell your item as coalesced with a READ ME note card explaining to rez it in edit mode so it can be moved since it is more than one object not linked.

[Rya Nitely]

Rezzing the two linked sets in edit mode is good if people read notecards, and I will be using this option wherever possible. This won't work for sculpted vehicles though.

Phantom child links will stop working with the pathfinder rollout. Items will lose the phantom properties when rezzed. So far I find that they only break when edited.

But I'm starting to get customer IMs about the problem. My concern is how bad is it likely to get as so many of my items use that tool.

[Innula Zenovka]

---

Rya Nitely wrote:

Many builders have used the phantom child link to hide the huge bound boxes of sculpties. Now that this so called 'bug' has been patched many buildings that use sculpties are going to break. I don't believe that the pathfinder rollout has hit all sims yet but when it does then the problem will raise its head in a big way.

---

Pathfinding was rolled out for the whole grid w/c August 6th, so I would think any problems people were going to have with PATHBUG-69 will have made themselves felt by now.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

Pathfinding's been on the entire grid for weeks. Anything that's going to break already has. They built in an automatic work-around for the old volume-detect hack. Prims that were set to "volume detect(true)" in existing linksets are automatically change to act as true phantom prims (which they WEREN'T before - phantom prims collide with the ground and volume detect prims don't.)  For buildings this should make no difference. It DOES mess with vehicles, but changing vehicles over to mesh accounting is pretty painless because they changed the maximum prim equivalence for a vehicle to 64, meaning that the old maximum of 32 sculpys will  still work as a vehicle if the parts with extreme physics costs are set to "none."

The long version of the story is here:

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/PATHBUG-69

[Deja Letov]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

---

Rya Nitely wrote:

Many builders have used the phantom child link to hide the huge bound boxes of sculpties. Now that this so called 'bug' has been patched many buildings that use sculpties are going to break. I don't believe that the pathfinder rollout has hit all sims yet but when it does then the problem will raise its head in a big way.

---

Pathfinding was rolled out for the whole grid w/c

August 6th,

 so I would think any problems people were going to have with

PATHBUG-69

 will have made themselves felt by now.

 

---

It has. It's a huge issue right now. Especially once a customer gets an item and modified it in anyway. I am dealing with this right now as well. The third option that I have started doing and I HATE it, is to make the entire build phantom. This makes it phantom like the script did and doesn't double the prim count. But of course, you're entire object is phantom. I've already started redoing several items of mine because customers are startig to flood in with the complaints for it.

The funny thing is, they call this an exploit in the system as a bug, but honestly I never knew that. I got the script from a vendor, to turn child prims phantom and never knew what the code was or why it was a bug. I had no idea it was an exploit. Honestly, I don't understand why they took the functionality away. It's causing loads of problems and unfortunately because of what we are limited it in terms of fixing it our customers aren't always going to be happy with it.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I'm not sure what's supposed to happen if an item is modified after it's automatically changed, but certainly my understanding of Falcon Linden's explanation of 21 April in the jira is that existing objects using the llVolumeDetect hack* should have changed automatically (I'm not sure if they needed re-rezzing or not):

"2) If a linkset uses the hack and does NOT use new accounting, the relevant prims will be modified such that they collide only with the terrain. Other than that, behavior should be unchanged. This may impact some land vehicles that previously had hacked phantom prims which did not collide with the terrain."

*he also explains in the same comment why it needed changing -- essentially, it just wasn't going to work with the new physics engine.

As to knowing it was a bug or not, I've been using it for four or five years now, and I've always known it was undocumented functionality -- I found out about it by accident, when I relinked something the wrong way, and discovered this handy side-effect of my mistake.   I knew llVolumeDetect wasn't supposed to behave like that, so I asked more experienced scripters and builders what was going on, and they all told me it was dangerous to rely on.    I found that out the hard way when LL part-broke it, about three years ago, without warning (before then, you could toggle it on and off by script, like you can change colour or visibility, but that suddenly stopped and broke a lot of my stuff).

[Rya Nitely]

Thank you for the responses. I didn't really know much about pathfinder rollout except what I read in other threads, and it's good to know that the damage is already done.

I am going through my items using the new method of changing the whole item to Convex Hull and then the sculpted prims to 'None' and in some cases the LI is going down.

So a lot of work and a notecard to educate customers on how to edit an unlinked item is what is required.

[Talia Davidov]

@Innula

I can not find the reference right now but there is an added caveat on the automatically changed prims.  If they are unlinked or if the linkset is changed by adding other targets to the linkset then the phantom setting goes away.  I have tested this with some of my builds, unlink the whole thing then link it all right back together and the phantom prims are no longer phantom.

Fortunately, prefab sales are a very minor part of my business so I have only had a couple of customers have issues.

@ the op

We have decided to go the separate linkset route on our prefabs.  Everything that needs to be phantom will be separate linkset. 

Edit to correct spelling sighs

[Deja Letov]

Actually what we were all told is that the child phantom issue would not affect legacy builds if they were never touched. Meaning anything older that' already in place wouldn't break and become non-phantom even on rez. It wouldn't only change once an item has been nmodified. I thought this was good news...except it isn't true. Several merchants have already been complaining in another thread elsewhere that items are breaking without modifying anything. I just wish they would have given us the "none" option like they do now but without the double prim count. Doesn't make any sense to me.

[Kubric Flux]

Hi Everyone, 

I had the same problem with a basic skybox I made, which started out at 15 prims then went up to 28 prims after the changes. Here is a bit of code I am using that makes it 15 prims again without needing to unlink it, I just swapped the old code for this:

 

default
{
state_entry()
{
llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast(LINK_THIS,[ PRIM_PHYSICS_SHAPE_TYPE,PRIM_PHYSICS_SHAPE_PRIM]);
}
}

Hope it helps.

 

NOTE - Check my other post further along to see some new code thats works, the above might not work.

[Deja Letov]

---

Kubric Flux wrote:

Hi Everyone, 

I had the same problem with a basic skybox I made, which started out at 15 prims then went up to 28 prims after the changes. Here is a bit of code I am using that makes it 15 prims again without needing to unlink it, I just swapped the old code for this:

 

default

{

state_entry()

{

llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast(LINK_THIS,[ PRIM_PHYSICS_SHAPE_TYPE,PRIM_PHYSICS_SHAPE_PRIM]);

}

}

Hope it helps.

---

So is this a replacement for old child phantom script? Does this really work? If it does....I'm coming to find you to give you a big wet one! I've been making all my new stuff completely phantom for the entire build because the prim counts are doubling when I tried the "none" route. I can't wait to get home tonight and try this!

 

[Innula Zenovka]

All that's doing, as far as I can see, is setting the whole thing back to being prims.   So it'll fix the LI issue but doesn't solve anything that depended on llVolumeDetect.

[Couldbe Yue]

I seem to be experiencing something different with a recent build.  If I do the child prim "none" for the one I want to be phantom it turns the whole thing phantom but keeps the reduced LI that convex hull on the others gives.  Pretty useless for something people need to walk on.  If I use my child prim phantom script, it works as it always has but only if I turn off convex hull on the rest of the build and go back to the full prim count rather than the reduced LI, otherwise the prim stays solid no matter what I do.

I've tried every combination of ways of putting it together that I can but can't change either of these outcomes. So my choice boiled down to either going for phantom water and full prim count or reducing the count by a third with LI and having the water solid.  I'm good with the solid water and my customers are going to have to be too. 

[Darrius Gothly]

I don't routinely do builds such as you folks do, but I did have some experience a while back with various devices that needed to be delivered as one unit but split apart and given separate properties after installation.

For example, I sell a couple of doors with fancy trim pieces around the door. Since they actually consist of several prims, they are delivered as a single object. This allows them to be positioned easily as a single piece. Then after they are positioned, a single touch and a quick "Approve" to allow unlinking .. and the various parts disassemble into two objects; one for the door itself so it can swing open and closed and one for the fancy trim.

Can a similar approach work for your builds? For example delivering a build with all prims linked into one solid object, then after the entire thing is positioned as needed .. touch and let the parts split up, go phantom, etc. in order to render the functions you need?

I plead intense naivete when it comes to delivering and equipping complex builds so forgive me if I'm asking something straight out of kindergarten. But it just seemed like a possible application for a technique I've used before.

[Pamela Galli]

Sometimes the builds go phantom but if you uncheck phantom they go back to convex hull and then you can set some prims to none.

[Kubric Flux]

Hi Everyone,

The code I posted before works perfectly for me when used to replace the phantom code already used on my skyboxes but I have tried it on 4 linked cubes and it didn't work for some reason, they all turned solid.

So I rezzed 4 new cubes and linked them and placed the following code in one of the cubes and it worked

 

default
{
state_entry()
{
llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast(LINK_THIS,[ PRIM_PHYSICS_SHAPE_TYPE,PRIM_PHYSICS_SHAPE_NONE]);
}
}

 

None of the cubes are phantom..the script makes 3 cubes without the script have the prim physics type and the one with the script none so you can walk through it.

After a few tests with the script here are my findings that you should be aware of when using it.

Regular prims means no twists, hollowing, slice, taper etc.. this can make the land impact total very high when using the script.

1. A build made entirely from regular prims will have a land impact of half the amount of prims used for the build.

2. A build with equal amount of regular prims and sculpted prims will have a land impact equal to the total amount of prims used for the build.

3. A build with more regular prims than sculpted prims will have a slightly lower land impact total.

4. A build with more sculpted prims than regular prims will have a slightly higher land impact total.

5. A build made with just sculpted prims will have a land impact equal to almost double the amount of  prims used.

I haven't tried this with mesh yet as I'm not using mesh at the moment. 

When you link your build make sure the prim you add the script to isn't set as the root prim, the root prim physics shape can't be set to NONE.

Btw, I'm not a scripter, I just get lucky sometimes, so I hope this one helps.

 

[Emma Krokus]

Hi Kubric

This works for me too - thanks!!

I agree - it would be great to have a scripter's view on this.

Emma

[Couldbe Yue]

Thanks for the tips everyone.  Kubric, I'm going to give this a go the next time I log in and if it works you've just got yourself a no 1 fan xxx

[Deja Letov]

---

Darrius Gothly wrote:

I don't routinely do builds such as you folks do, but I did have some experience a while back with various devices that needed to be delivered as one unit but split apart and given separate properties after installation.

For example, I sell a couple of doors with fancy trim pieces around the door. Since they actually consist of several prims, they are delivered as a single object. This allows them to be positioned easily as a single piece. Then after they are positioned, a single touch and a quick "Approve" to allow unlinking .. and the various parts disassemble into two objects; one for the door itself so it can swing open and closed and one for the fancy trim.

Can a similar approach work for your builds? For example delivering a build with all prims linked into one solid object, then after the entire thing is positioned as needed .. touch and let the parts split up, go phantom, etc. in order to render the functions you need?

I plead intense naivete when it comes to delivering and equipping complex builds so forgive me if I'm asking something straight out of kindergarten. But it just seemed like a possible application for a technique I've used before.

---

Unfortunately with furniture, it sounds doable, but it's not practical for customers. Customers are used to getting a "sofa" for example, dropping it, moving it around and using it. Especially in cases where you have invisible prims. They will go to rearrange their furniture and forget to click all the pieces and bam...broke. I can see how something like a door wouldn't be moved around much so not a big deal, but furniture, moved around constantly. So far, what I have been doing is making builds that really "need" a child phantom prim, I make the entire build completely phantom. These aren't things people walk on so it's not a hinderance, but I find it annoying to be able to walk through a couch that's sitting in your living room. But ya...requiring sculpts to now use mesh accounting just to get a part of it to be phantom, practically doubles your prim count making furniture even harder to now build within decent prim limits and still get a lot of detail. I've been doing more and more mesh just for this reason, but my sales aren't as high on mesh items because so many people still refuse to buy it.

 

[Deja Letov]

I also just tried this on one of my couches and it worked! left my prim count in place and the child prims I put the script into were indeed phantom. You know you may have just saved many of us. LOL

*The original one posted setting the shape to prim did not work for me...the one with the shape to NONE did work. Thanks again!