Bree Giffen Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Yes. That church is talking non-sense. It's just another veiled attempt to get you to accept their fantasy. Appeals to the betterment of mankind to support beliefs that hold humanity hostage. Just because someone says 'this is tied to that' doesn't mean it's true. Do you believe it? Or do you help it along? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoiselleErin Teardrop Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Bree mentioned adults who truly believe in Santa. Let me say I do believe in him. he is not some lard-ass in a red suit but when your work decides to actually give a decent bonus for Xmas or something nice unexpected like that - Santa is at work. He may have a different form but he certainly DOES exist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 MoiselleErin Teardrop wrote: Bree mentioned adults who truly believe in Santa. Let me say I do believe in him. he is not some lard-ass in a red suit but when your work decides to actually give a decent bonus for Xmas or something nice unexpected like that - Santa is at work. He may have a different form but he certainly DOES exist BLASTFEEEMUR!!!\o/ kidding..i love getting mah bonuses every 3 months.. Sanna wuvs meh more than one time a year!! yes i am that good with teh cookies and Se.....milk!!\o/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Bree Giffen wrote: Yes. That church is talking non-sense. It's just another veiled attempt to get you to accept their fantasy. Appeals to the betterment of mankind to support beliefs that hold humanity hostage. Just because someone says 'this is tied to that' doesn't mean it's true. Do you believe it? Or do you help it along? Bree, that was a fascinating reply. Francis Marcellus Church was the editor of the New York Sun at the end of the 19th century. That was an editorial he wrote in response to a little girl's letter asking about Santa Claus - it's quite well-known in the United States. The only remotely "churchlike" thing about him was apparently one of his paternal relatives lived near a church a few hundred years ago when last names started being invented. The reason I find your response fascinating is that it certainly looks like your response was based much more on your personal pre-held feelings about organized religon after having a Pavlovian response to the word "Church" than an actual consideration of the written words. I'm having a hard time seeing that as "free thought." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffin Ceawlin Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Theresa Tennyson wrote: Francis Marcellus Church ... It's Francis PHarcellus Church. The only remotely "churchlike" thing about him was apparently one of his paternal relatives lived near a church a few hundred years ago when last names started being invented. o.0 His father was a Baptist theologian who purchased The New York Chronicle, a religious weekly, where Francis was an editorial writer. As an amateur genealogist, I find this stuff fascinating. I also find fascinating the ability of people to make stuff up off the top of their head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia Sautereau Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 And there the pigs start to fly... If your in such direct contact, do us all a favor and ask her what the fuzz about 21/12/2012 is or if the maya`s were just to lazy to create a 6000 year calendar Have another billion question, but i don`t think all gods sitting around a table would be able to answer and the world will tremble in the wake of the mighty facepalm(s) I`m sorry, i lol`ed up there, down here, well, some where anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Griffin Ceawlin wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: Francis Marcellus Church ... It's Francis PHarcellus Church. The only remotely "churchlike" thing about him was apparently one of his paternal relatives lived near a church a few hundred years ago when last names started being invented. o.0 His father was a Baptist theologian who purchased The New York Chronicle, a religious weekly, where Francis was an editorial writer. As an amateur genealogist, I find this stuff fascinating. I also find fascinating the ability of people to make stuff up off the top of their head. Oops, made the same typo in my initial post but corrected it there. I was referring to the fact that Bree was assuming that the good editor was a religious institution. And, of course, when he wrote the editorial he was at the New York Sun, which was a gemeral-readership daily published by his brother. I'm also fascinated by people's ability to make things up off the tops of their heads. However, I personally try to refrain from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Levenque Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Bree Giffen wrote: Should we treat people who believe in God as people who are mentally disabled? If you see an adult who still truly believes in Santa Claus you would immediately discount them as having some kind of mental ilness and certainly functioning as a truly lesser person. All kidding aside, to all the atheists here, why must we continue this charade that somehow these 'believers' possess something that we should we even discuss with them. How long must we talk with these child-minds? If I were to see a normal person constantly arguing the existence of Santa Claus with a crazy person, how long til you think that the normal person has a problem as well? That is us, the sane person, constantly holding a conversation with the ill. It's time to just stop. Treat them as they truly are. Show them compassion for their folly but do not let them eat at the adult table. To return to this comment for a minute. Einstein, when confronted with Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, rather famously said "God does not play dice". There is some dispute about what he meant. I happen to believe he meant exactly what he said and to my way of thinking that does him little credit as a scientist, but the subjects concerned are well above my pay grade. The fact is, he did say that. Would you have Alfred Einstein sit at the children's table? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Dillon Levenque wrote: <snip> Would you have Alfred Einstein sit at the children's table? I sure would. That's where I sit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Levenque Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 I thought about that, after I posted, and I have to agree. I'd not be at all surprised if he would have chosen that table himself. I don't know much about him but I figure anyone with hair that goofy in the forties would enjoy a chance to communicate with kids. Move over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
161488303349 Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Madelaine McMasters wrote: Dillon Levenque wrote: <snip> Would you have Alfred Einstein sit at the children's table? I sure would. That's where I sit! Mommy !!! i wants to sit with the big kids. i dont want to sit on the mat anymore. is soo unfair (: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
161488303349 Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 i have to believe in Santa. i havent got my pony yet. i get a kitten already tho and am really happy about that. but is not the same as a pony (: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Fellstein Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Ok you do realize this supposed 'god' of yours plans to not only anhialate the entire population of the earth's inhabitants in a horrific cataclism of fire and brimstone, and not stopping there, intends to torment the souls of everyone who ever existed save a few thousand they choose at the time and deem worthy of salvation, for all of eternity? This according to the very book your belief is based on, lol. If Aliens from space sent a message with that intent, we'd be stockpiling nukes for their arrival. This is 'just' to you? Hrmm, ok. Well that just nulified any credibility you might have to me if you would claim an action such as that is 'just' when carried out by any creature in existance. Sorry. That's just beyond my personal boundaries. Your nose problems have nothing to do with any church. As wonderful as science is, we still don't understand all the ways in which the body responds to adversity. You wanted to live. Your body found a way *shrug. Life *does find a way. That's how we went from cells in a pool of goop to bipedal creatures that think and plan and have built an entire civilization. I'm all fine and dandy with the 'Jesus loves me' stuff but when people go driving it into the heads of little kids 5 years old or less that they are going to burn in a lake of fire for eternity if they make a mistake and that they need to go force-feed this ideal to everyone they see or surely that fate will be theirs, I'm sorry, that's not only incorrect, it is wrong, cruel, abusive and quite honestly needs to be stopped at this point by any means mecessary. Good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
161488303349 Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 bejjinks wrote: My real objective is to ask whether people of differing beliefs can be friends or not. I used to believe that people of differing beliefs could be friends but the more feedback I get from the forum, the more I begin to doubt that people of differing beliefs can be friends. The more aggressive people are to try to get me to change my beliefs, the more I wonder if it's even possible for a Christian, an Atheist, and a Muslim to have a CIVIL conversation. is possible for atheist, christian, muslim and any other kind to have a civil conversation Carlos Fraenkel address this in an opinion article in the New York Times http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/02/in-praise-of-the-clash-of-cultures/?ref=opinion + Mr Fraenkel discuss at length: taqlid (conformism) as explained by the muslim philosopher al-Ghazali - the authority of parents and teachers. how this works and why he also notes the alexandrian philosopher Galen observation: "Platonists, Aristotelians, Stoics and Epicureans simply “name themselves after the sect in which they were brought up” because they “form admirations” for the school founders, not because they choose the views supported by the best arguments." + bejjinks you also mention friends. much of your writings contain this element. like why cant we all be friends and get along. Mr Fraenkels article is what this is about Mr Fraenkel shows two views on conformist culturalism and then examines them the first view is: that we publicly embrace and celebrate multi-culturalism the second view is: that we publicly be citizens of our nations and celebrate our diverse cultures in private + i think your expressed desire for friendship fits within the first view. asking for friendship is asking for something that some others are unable or unwilling to give the second view is very conformist i think. it asks us to present a neutral face to others no matter our inner thoughts. just to get along and not upset anyone Mr Fraenkel concludes that it is enough for us to just be tolerant. he argue that our tolerance for others can come only after we criticallly and rationally examine our own beliefs and cultural thinking. how much of what we think is due to taqlid and how much is a result of critical and rational self-examination + i think that Mr Fraenkel is right when we are sure about these for ourselves then we are no longer threatened by the thoughts/cultures of others. no matter how contrary they are to our own we find the calm in ourselves. we no longer have any need or desire to conform ourselves to anothers views nor they to ours. we dont need to be friends for this to happen, yet we can have a civil conversation about why we think/believe/conform as we do. and why others think/believe/conform as they do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
161488303349 Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Arkady Arkright wrote: I'm sorry, but I can't find any proof or sense in anything you say, it's just made-up mumbo-jumbo in an attempt to bamboozle others into thinking you know what you're talking about. i dont think anyone is bamboozled. most people know that for an assertion to have any value then there is a context for it. and that within the context there is also a condition and/or association to support it like the computer program i showed. assert(wut <= god). is conditional and associative this. it dont say assert(wut) or assert(god). dunno why you not able to make any sense of this is pretty clear now that you happy to just go with assert(!god). is ok that you do. you not alone in that + when lay people demand scientific evidence of god then it usually goes: assert(there is no god bc there is no scientific evidence of god) is an association here so at least is a start. is still a bit meaningless bc is no explanation of what is meant by "scientific". the assertion is assumptive. it assumes that the reader knows, or should know, what is meant by "scientific". when lay people say this they usually mean "physical" so assert(there is no god bc there is no physical evidence of god therefore logic indicates that we can conclude from this that god does not exist) from lay person pov then this kind of reasoning is close enough and good enough as far as they care. has to do with how lay people generally relate to spacetime. mostly they relate things to space and events to time + scientists dont do this. it doesnt work for them. if they use this approach then they not get anywhere with their peers scientist always use spacetime reference: at time T in space S there was no measurable evidence of god in that what was observed in space S at time T can be explained by other phenomena. therefore we can conclude that god does not exist for this purpose (thing/event) this is whats called a safe conclusion. is way heaps difference between this and lay person Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deja Letov Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Bree Giffen wrote: Should we treat people who believe in God as people who are mentally disabled? If you see an adult who still truly believes in Santa Claus you would immediately discount them as having some kind of mental ilness and certainly functioning as a truly lesser person. All kidding aside, to all the atheists here, why must we continue this charade that somehow these 'believers' possess something that we should we even discuss with them. How long must we talk with these child-minds? If I were to see a normal person constantly arguing the existence of Santa Claus with a crazy person, how long til you think that the normal person has a problem as well? That is us, the sane person, constantly holding a conversation with the ill. It's time to just stop. Treat them as they truly are. Show them compassion for their folly but do not let them eat at the adult table. It's actually kind of funny. If someone were to start claiming that they believe an invisible man exists, who can perform magic and actually talks to them...they are crazy. But get a whole population to claim the exact same thing...it's a religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deja Letov Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 bejjinks wrote: Solaria Goldshark wrote: Without using coercion, perhaps you'd be so kind as to bestow upon us simpletons this amazing evidence you have for us to examine, since as you say, having examined the same evidence you have we would come to the same beliefs as you have. The entire flaw in your position is that troublesome issue of "Belief" The problem is that it is not my attempt to prove anything to you and it was never my attempt in the first place. My real objective is to ask whether people of differing beliefs can be friends or not. I used to believe that people of differing beliefs could be friends but the more feedback I get from the forum, the more I begin to doubt that people of differing beliefs can be friends. The more aggressive people are to try to get me to change my beliefs, the more I wonder if it's even possible for a Christian, an Atheist, and a Muslim to have a CIVIL conversation. I will share my evidence, not in any attempt to coerce you or force you to believe as I do, but just out of hopefully friendly dialogue. I cannot share all the evidence I have because there's just too much but I'll share some of the most memorable. For nearly my entire life, I have had respiratory problems. My nose was nothing but problems. I went to doctors and their treatments helped. I even had surgery but the doctors said that some of the problems were too deep and they didn't want to risk trying to fix it. So I was resigned to live the rest of my life with repiratory problems. I was not seeking a healing. I was not looking up any miracle workers. I'd given up. Then three people from church spontaneously prayed for my nose and within a week, the problem went away and has never come back. Not only can I breath, I can smell things that I never could smell before. Before October 3, 2008, I was in major financial trouble. I was regularly coming up in debt at the end of each week despite all my best efforts to manage my money. It was supernatural why I was in so much debt. All the searching I did through my records could not find where the money was disappearing to. It was just disappearing. On October 3, 2008 I had a life changing encounter with God. The next week, I had thirty dollars left at the end of the week. The week after that, I had three hundred dollars left at the end of the week. The next week after that, I had six hundred dollars at the end of the week. I'm not wealthy but God has helped me not be so desperately poor. God has also spoken to me. Now I'm sure several of you are gonna accuse me of being schizophrenic but this was not a delusion. God didn't speak in audible words. He's a spirit. But it was absolutely convincing that it was God and not a demon or my imagination. Frequently, I have also been impressed by God's timing. I've gotten sick at the best times I could have gotten sick. God is not similar to Santa Claus in any way. God makes it rain on everyone, good or evil. But . . . Romans 8:28 NASB And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. In other words, God doesn't prevent Christians from suffering but directs the suffering for our benefit. I have seen this time and time again in my life. I've had some horrible things happen in my life but do to timing or some other circumstance, even the most horrible thing wound up benefitting me. I'm not just talking about "that which doesn't destroy us makes us stronger" I'm talking about it as if God was an athletic trainer purposefully controlling when I hurt so that I would get the most benefit from it. That has been one of the most significant miracles in my life, the amazing timing of God. I'm not a great person. I struggle a lot. I have faith though that God will see me through this year. If God doesn't exist, I'm going to wind up homeless because I don't have enough of an income to keep paying the rent. In fact, if it wasn't included in the rent, I wouldn't have internet and wouldn't be able to write to you. My life is scary right now but God has seen me through scary times in the past so I know he will continue to see me through. There is my evidence of why I believe. The reason I can't convince you is because it's all experiential and you've had different experiences. I respect that. So I'm not even going to try to convince you of anything. I'm only asking that you respect my experiences. My experiences are my own. Absolutely people of different faiths can be friends. I have friends of all sorts of religions plus some atheists. We are all good friends. Do we discuss religion? Not really. Why? Because of the way this thread has gone right here. People get bent out of shape and will defend to the death what they believe in...and honestly...no amount of defending will ever convert anyone. So it's really a pointless conversation. Honestly, I know we have freedom of speech and all that, but there is truly no point in even making a post like this except to get a rise out of people. You know the answer for yourself to every question asked...does it really matter what others think? Of course not...it's just a futile attempt at spreading the word of God around and attempting to convert people...but it never works. It just ends in bad feelings and tons of drama. As far as all the rest of it...I would hardly call that evidence. I would call it your opinions based on experiences you've had. I could get better from a sickness as well...and that's not evidence of divine intervention nor is it evidence of the lack of it. but I will tell you what I think caused it based on my belief. But none of it evidential. 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bejjinks Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 Eileen Fellstein wrote: I'm all fine and dandy with the 'Jesus loves me' stuff but when people go driving it into the heads of little kids 5 years old or less that they are going to burn in a lake of fire for eternity if they make a mistake and that they need to go force-feed this ideal to everyone they see or surely that fate will be theirs, I'm sorry, that's not only incorrect, it is wrong, cruel, abusive and quite honestly needs to be stopped at this point by any means mecessary. This paragraph of yours, I agree with. It is wrong and cruel to terrify anyone, let alone five year olds, into any belief system that condemns people for making mistakes. That kind of behavior does need to be stopped. It is those who indoctrinate five year olds that should be (and will be) condemned to Hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bejjinks Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 Deja Letov wrote: there is truly no point in even making a post like this except to get a rise out of people. You know the answer for yourself to every question asked...does it really matter what others think? Of course not...it's just a futile attempt at spreading the word of God around and attempting to convert people My hope is not to get a rise out of people. I do have a motive other than getting a rise out of people and other than trying to convert anyone. I'm aware of the risk but I'm hoping for something other than a feud of people trying to convert each other. I don't have the answer for every question. I know my own experience and that is all I know. I do care what other people think so long as those people don't discredit my experience. In fact, I really do want to know what other people think. Some have shared what they believe or think and that was great. But some have done nothing but criticize me for thinking. Like you haven't shared what you believe or what you think. I'd like to ask you the question you asked me. What do you believe and what is your evidence? I promise I will not accuse you of trying to convert me the way you are accusing me of trying to convert you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madelaine McMasters Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Deja Letov wrote: bejjinks wrote: Solaria Goldshark wrote: Without using coercion, perhaps you'd be so kind as to bestow upon us simpletons this amazing evidence you have for us to examine, since as you say, having examined the same evidence you have we would come to the same beliefs as you have. The entire flaw in your position is that troublesome issue of "Belief" The problem is that it is not my attempt to prove anything to you and it was never my attempt in the first place. My real objective is to ask whether people of differing beliefs can be friends or not. I used to believe that people of differing beliefs could be friends but the more feedback I get from the forum, the more I begin to doubt that people of differing beliefs can be friends. The more aggressive people are to try to get me to change my beliefs, the more I wonder if it's even possible for a Christian, an Atheist, and a Muslim to have a CIVIL conversation. I will share my evidence, not in any attempt to coerce you or force you to believe as I do, but just out of hopefully friendly dialogue. I cannot share all the evidence I have because there's just too much but I'll share some of the most memorable. For nearly my entire life, I have had respiratory problems. My nose was nothing but problems. I went to doctors and their treatments helped. I even had surgery but the doctors said that some of the problems were too deep and they didn't want to risk trying to fix it. So I was resigned to live the rest of my life with repiratory problems. I was not seeking a healing. I was not looking up any miracle workers. I'd given up. Then three people from church spontaneously prayed for my nose and within a week, the problem went away and has never come back. Not only can I breath, I can smell things that I never could smell before. Before October 3, 2008, I was in major financial trouble. I was regularly coming up in debt at the end of each week despite all my best efforts to manage my money. It was supernatural why I was in so much debt. All the searching I did through my records could not find where the money was disappearing to. It was just disappearing. On October 3, 2008 I had a life changing encounter with God. The next week, I had thirty dollars left at the end of the week. The week after that, I had three hundred dollars left at the end of the week. The next week after that, I had six hundred dollars at the end of the week. I'm not wealthy but God has helped me not be so desperately poor. God has also spoken to me. Now I'm sure several of you are gonna accuse me of being schizophrenic but this was not a delusion. God didn't speak in audible words. He's a spirit. But it was absolutely convincing that it was God and not a demon or my imagination. Frequently, I have also been impressed by God's timing. I've gotten sick at the best times I could have gotten sick. God is not similar to Santa Claus in any way. God makes it rain on everyone, good or evil. But . . . Romans 8:28 NASB And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. In other words, God doesn't prevent Christians from suffering but directs the suffering for our benefit. I have seen this time and time again in my life. I've had some horrible things happen in my life but do to timing or some other circumstance, even the most horrible thing wound up benefitting me. I'm not just talking about "that which doesn't destroy us makes us stronger" I'm talking about it as if God was an athletic trainer purposefully controlling when I hurt so that I would get the most benefit from it. That has been one of the most significant miracles in my life, the amazing timing of God. I'm not a great person. I struggle a lot. I have faith though that God will see me through this year. If God doesn't exist, I'm going to wind up homeless because I don't have enough of an income to keep paying the rent. In fact, if it wasn't included in the rent, I wouldn't have internet and wouldn't be able to write to you. My life is scary right now but God has seen me through scary times in the past so I know he will continue to see me through. There is my evidence of why I believe. The reason I can't convince you is because it's all experiential and you've had different experiences. I respect that. So I'm not even going to try to convince you of anything. I'm only asking that you respect my experiences. My experiences are my own. Absolutely people of different faiths can be friends. I have friends of all sorts of religions plus some atheists. We are all good friends. Do we discuss religion? Not really. Why? Because of the way this thread has gone right here. People get bent out of shape and will defend to the death what they believe in...and honestly...no amount of defending will ever convert anyone. So it's really a pointless conversation. Honestly, I know we have freedom of speech and all that, but there is truly no point in even making a post like this except to get a rise out of people. You know the answer for yourself to every question asked...does it really matter what others think? Of course not...it's just a futile attempt at spreading the word of God around and attempting to convert people...but it never works. It just ends in bad feelings and tons of drama. As far as all the rest of it...I would hardly call that evidence. I would call it your opinions based on experiences you've had. I could get better from a sickness as well...and that's not evidence of divine intervention nor is it evidence of the lack of it. but I will tell you what I think caused it based on my belief. But none of it evidential. I have friends of many faiths, and of no faith at all. We sometimes do discuss religion, though I don't know if anyone has shifted position much as a result. Our discussions don't last long enough to have that effect. While it may be true that no amount of defending will ever convert anyone, I don't generally defend. I simply wonder aloud, discuss things I've read, heard and observed, and explain why I find those things compelling, or not. I don't try to convert other people, I simply try to explain why I believe what I believe. As for developing my opinions from my own experiences, I find that a dangerous thing to do without critical self analysis. I am easily fooled, spotting patterns and causality where none exist. This can produce amusing or frightening results. So I must depend on and cooperate with others in the search for knowledge. In that sense, I too am faithful. I'm faithful that people with vastly different beliefs are nevertheless curious enough to explore and open enough to change their minds, and that collectively we will, though it might look like a drunkard's walk, head in the general direction of the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bejjinks Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 These are biases common to many Atheists. I am not saying that all Atheists have these biases. I'm merely pointing out a few of the more common biases held by many Atheists. 1. "I have no bias". The denial of bias is a bias itself. To assume that oneself is logical is to arrogantly set oneself above everyone else. This leads many Atheists to avoid using the word believe and to state his or her opinions as if they were facts. For example, the theory of evolution is spoken of as if it was a fact or even a law. Many Atheist do not say "I believe" in the theory of evolution because that Atheist wants to give the impression that only a fool would dispute this theory. Some Atheist may even be so bold as to say that any scientist that disputes the theory of evolution is not a scientist. However, there are many scientists that dispute the theory of evolution and the very definition of science requires that they be allowed to dispute the theory. As for this bias, the more Agnostic the person is, the less biased he or she is because the Agnostic is more willing to say, "I believe but I could be wrong." 2. "Fluffy Cloud Heaven". I refer you to the tv tropes website http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FluffyCloudHeaven. Related tv tropes of interest are "Fire and Brimstone Hell" http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FireAndBrimstoneHell and "Grandpa God" http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrandpaGod. Basically the bias is to assume that God, Heaven and Hell have been defined for us by the popular media. Many Atheists then assume that all religious people have been indoctrinated to believe in these media defined concepts when the truth is, the concepts of God, Heaven and Hell that people believe in vary greatly and are typically nothing like what the media portrays. This bias leads people to look for the wrong evidence. We can find no evidence for Fluffy Cloud Heaven so if we assume that Fluffy Cloud Heaven is the definition of Heaven, we can assume that there is no such thing as Heaven. But if we look past the assumption and allow for other definitions of Heaven, then we need to open our minds to look for evidence of the alternative definitions of Heaven. Likewise, I have heard of the Santa Claus Syndrome which is when people assume that God is like Santa Claus or is in the same category as Santa Claus. Their pseudo-logical construct goes like this, God is like Santa Claus and there is no Santa Claus, therefore there is no God. The problem with that piece of pseudo-logic is the assumption that God is like Santa Claus. It is a bias that blinds people to see the evidence because they are looking for the wrong kind of evidence. They are looking for Santa Claus instead of for God. Maybe we should apply Feynman's philosophy to God and instead of asking whether there is a God or not, maybe we should approach the whole issue with an attitude of "I don't even know who God is but I'm trying to find out as much as I can about God". 3. "All religious people are alike". This bias places the entire world into an either/or, us or them mentality. This black and white thinking is a logical fallacy in and of itself. It is the very kind of fallacy that leads to prejudice, oppression, segregation, persecution, and even genocide. Some Atheists (not all) want to see all religious people exterminated or at the very least, placed in mental institutions until they can be "cured" of their religion. 4. "People are indoctrinated". This bias is partially true so I will give some credit to it. Some people are indoctrinated. I even spoke with a woman this morning who talked about how she had been indoctrinated and stayed a Catholic for forty years because of childhood indoctrination. But to assume indoctrination in all cases is a bias. It is also a bias to assume that the theory of evolution is not indoctrinated into children or to assume that Atheism is not indoctrinated into children. But people grow up and in many cases they question the beliefs they were raised on. Sometimes they even reject the beliefs they were raised on as I have rejected the theory of evolution. And people who have examined their beliefs and rejected indoctrination, now believe other beliefs that they weren't raised on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bejjinks Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 Madelaine McMasters wrote: I have friends of many faiths, and of no faith at all. We sometimes do discuss religion, though I don't know if anyone has shifted position much as a result. Our discussions don't last long enough to have that effect. While it may be true that no amount of defending will ever convert anyone, I don't generally defend. I simply wonder aloud, discuss things I've read, heard and observed, and explain why I find those things compelling, or not. I don't try to convert other people, I simply try to explain why I believe what I believe. As for developing my opinions from my own experiences, I find that a dangerous thing to do without critical self analysis. I am easily fooled, spotting patterns and causality where none exist. This can produce amusing or frightening results. So I must depend on and cooperate with others in the search for knowledge. In that sense, I too am faithful. I'm faithful that people with vastly different beliefs are nevertheless curious enough to explore and open enough to change their minds, and that collectively we will, though it might look like a drunkard's walk, head in the general direction of the truth. Nice. I like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deja Letov Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 bejjinks wrote: Deja Letov wrote: there is truly no point in even making a post like this except to get a rise out of people. You know the answer for yourself to every question asked...does it really matter what others think? Of course not...it's just a futile attempt at spreading the word of God around and attempting to convert people My hope is not to get a rise out of people. I do have a motive other than getting a rise out of people and other than trying to convert anyone. I'm aware of the risk but I'm hoping for something other than a feud of people trying to convert each other. I don't have the answer for every question. I know my own experience and that is all I know. I do care what other people think so long as those people don't discredit my experience. In fact, I really do want to know what other people think. Some have shared what they believe or think and that was great. But some have done nothing but criticize me for thinking. Like you haven't shared what you believe or what you think. I'd like to ask you the question you asked me. What do you believe and what is your evidence? I promise I will not accuse you of trying to convert me the way you are accusing me of trying to convert you. Actually I did say my thoughts on the belief in God...on page 2 of this thread (my giant wall of text) and other pages as well. I would consider myself agnostic more than I would atheist. Mainly because I tend to seek truth based on actual and factual evidence. I can't say with certainty that there is no God...what I can say, is that based on scientific evidence and the liklihood of a magical man in the sky who nobody has ever seen, that it most likely isn't true. I have read tons of scientific articles, watched documentary's and even studied religion in college, and science leads me more towards there being no God, than there is to being one. I hope one day I am proven wrong on the existance of God and we find out that maybe there is something else out there. I would like to believe that there is a place we all go to after we die. What I hope to never learn is that God is the same God that some crazed men wrote about in a book many many years ago. The God described in the bible is not a God I would want around and certainly not one I would want to hang out with in the afterlife. But as of right now, nobody has shown me one fact based piece of evidence that the existance is even remotely possible. So I equate the reality of the bible to be about the same reality as a superman comic book. Entertaining to read maybe but definitely nothing to live your life by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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