161488303349 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Ceka Cianci wrote: rather than ..lets see how bad it really was when their bills come in..we'll be able to tell when the bitching starts lol maybe before even. like: have just spend 5 hours typing this into this forum on dialup RAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRR !!!! RAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRR !!!! RAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRR !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 That's all well and good 16 but my point was that these things happen often enough that - while yes it would have been nice for Linden Lab to send out a notice that it was happening - one should have been able to catch this and known how to act accordingly until the issue is fixed. Needing to be told what to do until it is fixed ... No, I am sorry but that should be common sense. It should be common sense to monitor one's data usage when using a service like Second Life for that matter. It doesn't matter how steady the usage is over any particular period of time ... there's always going to be spikes. These ones just so happen to be far worse than the average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Janus Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Youre clearly dismissive of anyone in my situation..after five years of use in sl I dont expect a sudden issue to arise with a TENFOLD increase in gb usage...ONE WHICH SL HAVE ALSO TAKEN RESPONSIBILITY FOR..... which in my opinion makes lindens liable for any losses or increased charges.....and youre also clearly a person who expects to say what he wants but then has the nerve to demand respectful responses... dream on pal. I just wish the stupid ignore system on this forum was working... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ticee Nansen Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 But Maelstrom to clear things up, and don't hate on me now Do you want LL to pay you back for your internet bill or the fact that you can't play much with the bug going on and you're a premium/paying member? That kinda makes a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 No, I'm dismissive of you, personally. Your attitude speaks for itself Maelstrom. Linden Lab isn't liable for your data charges - you are. That's how it works and has always worked since the inception of the Internet. It doesn't matter if a code issue causes a sudden spike in data sent, it doesn't matter if the service owner comes out and says that they made a mistake. As my roomate has just said after reading this over my shoulder and asking about this: Is Linden Lab responsible for fixing the data spike? Yes. Are they responsible for paying your overage cost? No, no they're not. Track. Your. Data. Usage. Before I moved in here? The ISP serving this house was Clear. Shortly after the largest solar flare last year (in October I think), they reported that we had gone over our cap by a rather large margin. However, our own records did not match this. One more reason to stay away from wholly "wireless" ISPs. Managed to talk them down and admit the issues was theirs. That is the sort of issue that your attitude is proper for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
161488303349 Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Solar Legion wrote: That's all well and good 16 but my point was that these things happen often enough that - while yes it would have been nice for Linden Lab to send out a notice that it was happening - one should have been able to catch this and known how to act accordingly until the issue is fixed. Needing to be told what to do until it is fixed ... No, I am sorry but that should be common sense. It should be common sense to monitor one's data usage when using a service like Second Life for that matter. It doesn't matter how steady the usage is over any particular period of time ... there's always going to be spikes. These ones just so happen to be far worse than the average. i pick up on your different points yes agree that it would be nice if linden did put out an advice. they used to back in the day about these kinds of things. inworld notices even, lindens used to chat and give advices and answers questions on the forums as well they dont do that anymore maybe now seems like we all getting steamed then will change back to the old ways. maybe. hope so + needing to be told the mitigation in the advice isnt to be told watch your bandwidth meter the mitigation advice is to avoid the south by south west corners of your sim where possible. if you must go into that area then reduce your draw distance to 32m. do what you have to do there as quickly as you can and move away. we are working on a fix for this and is expected the fix will be rolled out next Tuesday (or whatever day) thanks for your patience and tolerance is a simple thing for a company to do stuff like this and it brings untold goodwill from your customers when you do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peggy Paperdoll Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 08-19-201212:20 PM Peggy. I have replicated this on plenty of sims. If the sim has contiguous sims to the south and they're in your draw distance, the closer you get to the SE or SW corners of the sim, and the greater your draw distance, you're going to see the bandwidth indicator in the stats panel climb to insane levels and, if you've got the debug console up, you'll see why it's happening. It's just as described in the jiras. ---------------------------------------------------- I just did it again to make sure. My plot of mainland sits at the northern edge of the sim it's located in. What's more it's almost dead center of the sim east and west on the border with the sim to the north. My draw distance is set at 256 meters. That means I can look across each sim to the north and to the south. I also look across half a sim (not counting the sim I'm in) to both the east and west. That's pretty much a worse case scenairo for the problem you discribe (and what the JIRA discribes). My bandwidth meter did nothing unusual.......a spike to about 800 to 900 kbps (with occassional jumps to 1,000) when I turn and face a new direction. That's exactly how the bandwidth meter has always worked. I even increased my draw distance to 512 meters to see if it would do something wierd........it didn't. Then I cleared my cache, relogged and did it again from the same vantage points. I walked acrossed the sim borders of all four sims. Everything was very close to what I've always observed on the bandwidth meter. The only difference I did notice was that my FPS were a little higher than normal (by about 10 frames)........but that can be explained by someone's build changed or was removed. I normally get about 35 FPS on the ground where my plot is but right now I'm getting close to 45. I don't think that has anything to do with what the subject of this thread is about. I have no reason to lie. I do not have a data cap with my ISP. I do occassionally check my usage but only for couriosity sake........I guess I should check it though. Maybe I'm mistaken but I just do not see this issue. And my whole point for even posting in this thread was that, originally, the OP was complaining about usage, yet speaking about speed. After being told I'm missing something I re-read the original post carefully..............I wasn't missing anything. The thread is both incorrectly titled and incorrectly discribed when the title is taken into account. A title is to discribe what the subject is......no one should have to guess what the poster is saying in order to join the discussion. Perhaps if I had the same attitude as many about LL I might have been more "in tune" with what the OP was complaining about.........but I don't. When LL gets under my skin too much for me I'll do what I have to do to make that stop. If that means I leave, then I leave.........but I will not bore you folks with all the pointless whinning and bitching telling everyone that I'm so important to LL that I deserve special consideration........to that I'll be missed. I'm no more important than that 100th free alt of a basic account who has never spent a single RL dime in SL..........and I'll be missed just about as much as that alt would be. I don't have the problem that you discribed...........I'm not lying as you implied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innula Zenovka Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I didn't mean to imply you were lying, Peggy, and I apologise if I gave that impression. It certainly wasn't intended. All I am saying is that a lot of people, including me (and, rather more importantly, Maestro Linden, if you read his comment on SVC-8155) have certainly observed it. ETA --I've just tried it again, in Main Channel Sandbox 1. With my draw distance at 160, as soon as I turned SE and started walking to the corner, my bandwidth jumped from ~12 kbps to ~660 kbps (with wild fluctuations, sometimes up to over 1000 -- and there's nothing there to load; the sandboxes are virtually empty. As soon as I crossed over into Sandbox 4 my bandwidth went back down to ~20 kbps. Then I walked back into Sandbox 2 and turned round and started looking SW again, and it shot back up to ~660. This is after I've stood there doing nothing for a minute or two, to let everything load and settle down after the sim crossing that's going to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peggy Paperdoll Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I'll accept that and thank you for it too. Now that I understand what the issue is (which took a while for someone.....not the OP by the way.....cleared it up for me). People really should think about what they are saying when trying to point something out. Things like using the proper word in the proper context. If that were to happen there would be so many less "heated" discussions. And then some people who insist that others are stupid for not understanding the question or problem would have less to start trouble over. Someone questioned where I was from, which questioned my understanding of the English language.......and I was only responding to what was said. Not what they "meant". I don't know what anyone means unless they tell me. Title your threads properly and explain your problem properly.........not hard to do really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Peggy, I'm pretty sure you're not seeing this problem because your region's on LeTigre. When I was doing the research for SVC-8155 I did it Wednesday morning before the RC server rolls and it looked like the problem either didn't occur or was much liess on BlueSteel. The Wednesday server rolls put LeTigre on the same code as BlueSteel. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-8155 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Ceka Cianci wrote: i don't have a problem with it happening.. but have a problem after they have set up all these avenues of communication and don't seem to use them in situations like this.. [...] Yeah. And as I've said elsewhere, it would really seem to be in LL's best interest to communicate -- not because it would save them from legal liability for people's bandwidth (which is a dicey proposition at best), but because it would retain customers who will otherwise surely leave for good when they get huge bills from their ISPs. I'd understand if I thought there was some cynical calculation that concluded they'd be better off keeping mum: maybe not that many will get overage bills, of whom not that many will notice, of whom not that many will attribute it to SL usage gone haywire. The problem is, I don't think that's valid. This is a huge effect. Moreover, we're currently only one week into what's looking to be a three-week phenomenon (and that's best case, assuming the whole, seemingly multi-faceted problem is already fully fixed on the Aditi test sims). So I think many, many of LL's customers are going to feel the impact of this when they get their bills. Also there's something to say in such a communication to help their customers mitigate the effects: reduce draw distance and don't spend too much time near the southern corners of regions with neighbors--or at least that's what seems to work for residents who've tried. Granted, no matter how LL were to word it, there would be residents who would gripe about getting such a communication. There'd be some sabre-rattling of imaginary internet lolyers and the magic incantation of class action. Big deal. These things look silly now, and they'd look even sillier if LL proactively informed customers of a means to avoid incurring damage. IMHO, somebody in Legal is giving very bad advice, if they've been consulted on this at all. What's even worse... downright depressing, in fact... is that those Lindens who have been willing to tell us what's being done about the problem are probably communicating against the wishes of what few managers remain. I've watched from the sidelines as more and more channels of communication are closed off between Lindens and their customers. It's frankly amazing that they are getting any idea at all anymore of what's really happening on their service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I wouldn't have believed people would argue over this topic as much as they did if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. This is a simple concept. LL introduced a bug that's going to have a significant impact on their users. There's a jira. Monitor your data usage. That's it. That's all that needs to be said. Three steps. Topic, evidence, solution. Granted, the word data should have been used instead of bandwidth, arguing over who has to pay for it or what bandwidth means or saying there's no issue because you can't replicate it is all a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ticee Nansen Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Clearly gadget you should have been more attentive and active, so you could have saved us from this madness before it went completely haywire. However the thing is that people don't tend to argue about subjects in public forum, they argue about/with people. If you like someone, you'll agree with him, if you don't like someone you'll disagree. If someone offends you, you'll try to stand up for your own dignity, quite obviously not to lose face. As such any debate can end up like this, but it's often the result of greater problems that's been lingering.. Like here the predominant issue is responsibility for your own life, as an adult being. This is just the tip of the iceberg that happened to be revealed at the right time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drongle McMahon Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 To clarify the (original) subject, these are my own direct observations ... The phenomenon seems to have nothing to do with content download, and therefore nothing to do with data that gets cached. It is unaffected by turning off all rendering (Advanced - Render types) and by flying at heights where no rezzed objects are visible. It appears to be the result of cycling of communication processes with a diagonally adjacent region, that get invoked upon bringing that region into draw distance (at any height). It only affects SE and SW corners, and not all of those. The resulting data transfer rate is usually about 600-700 kbps, at least 30 times higher than idling in the middle of my home region. You can get higher rates (eg 1700 kbps) if your draw distance is greater than about 200m. (All rates as reported by the statistics bar meter, which is not necessarily reliable). It is not reduced by setting the "maximum bandwidth" to 100 kbps in the preferences dialog. As far as I have experienced it, it doesn't seem to be associated with typical lag symptoms that might otherwise have given warning. It is not spikes, but is continuous as long as you (avatar, not camera) are in the affected area. At the usual rate it represents about 300 megabytes per hour. So if the metered rate is accurate, it would take 30 hours in such an area to reach the lowest (cheapest contract; 10GB) monthly cap above which my ISP starts charging excess. That would be about 1 hour per day. Since I know about it, don't spend that long inworld anyway, and have a better contract, I don't expect to be affected. People who don't know and might spend many hours in a home that happens to be in an affected area could be in for a shock if they have low caps. Some ISP contracts I have seen only start measures in the second month of excess data transfer. In those more fortunate cases, nothing more than a warning is likely. The relevant jira indicates that a fix is already done and is being tested. With any luck it will be in place next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Collingwood Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Eeps! I wondered why my bandwidth bar was red red red :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilbert Dilweg Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Regardless of the word/term used. I still knew what the OP meant. no need to make it more than it should be lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBaginski Bearsfoot Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 If you are keeping an eye on your data traffic, be aware that the new code being rolled out today, on all the Release Channels, includes a fix for the bug. It will be another week, if nothing goes wrong, before this is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Janus Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Opppps bumped - if only because the problems still there...still going on...still smashing up the bandwidth usage of the unwary.... while Lindens still expect you to cough up your tier fees and membership payments as if nothing happened because you agreed to signing up to a possibly buggy non continuous service... even if youve been out of sl for almost two weeks or more..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Janus Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 oh deary me ..... http://blog.nalates.net/2012/08/24/bad-news-on-bandwidth/#comment-40910 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Janus Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Just spoken to my ISP to sort out extra gbs on my allowance. Having explained the situation my ISP reckons Lindens should at least give recompense for any gigabytes used over a usage limit.... how strange I agree with them... Cant be many companies who actually say they're liable for a problem then actually use their terms of service to get out of giving recompense to customers they cause a problem for.... and the latest news is that this problem looks as if its carrying on and on... Im beginning to think this is some crafty ploy to push islands where the elite have more control over these stupid problems lindens technical boys keep introdcing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solstyse Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Is there any way possible to get rid of the posts in this thread that have no substance whatsoever? This seems like it started as a very useful thread about a serious technical issue, but then, what took 10 pages could have been three.... There is arguement about the meaning of a word, long after it has been clarified. There is a lot of personal back and forth bickering. Maelstrom, there is no doubt that from both a moral and customer satisfaction standpoint, LL should cut the tier cost of you and anyone in your situation, regardless of whether they are capped or not in bandwidth, as a show of "good faith" and as a method of lowering their total liability. From a legal standpoint, it's not so clear. I would guess it depends on where you are, since their service would need to follow all applicible laws, and how good your legal representation is. In the US, laws concerning liabilities of companies for consequential damages are kind of murky, unless clearly defined in a written "limited waranty." Without it, services and products default to an "implied waranty." So, I imagine how much responsibility they are legally liable for depends fully on how talented of a lawyer would bring a case against them. Odds are you would end up spending more on a lawyer than what you lost. Limitations of liability are usually ironclad. Also, legal liability aside, the message sent to customers by not giving warning sends a bad message. Any time that any problem exists with a product or service, the customers should be informed. The result of them sitting on their hands, I'm sure, is plenty of people with just as much anger as maelstrom has. Although I would bet the majority of them are going to go away mroe quietly. The proper thing would have been to warn people, so those of us who have unlimited bandwidth could just say, "Oh, so that's why the increase in lag." while those who are capped would know to watch. After years, or only just months people can predict their usage. And they assume that doing what they've always done will have the same result. I can tell the usage on my Android devices without looking. When speeds and thus total usage spike unexpectedly, it's very easy to blame the person it happened to. I'll say right now that on my WIFI, I am uncapped. So this issue does nothing to my bill. But for those who it does affect, some compassion should be shown. I have had spikes in the past, traced them, and fortunately it wasn't LL, so I WAS able to get cooperation from customer service. There have been times when my continuation of service depended heavily on the attitude of the CS workers. That, I think is more the point that Maelstrom is trying to make. This may not be a legal issue, but it certainly is a customer service issue. Not one that affects us all equally, but one that can really harm some people's ability to enjoy second life (and if you don't enjoy it, you may as well not be here.) and even has a heavy impact on some people's wallets. There should definitely been official notices from LL. And there should be something done for those most heavily affected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 You went over your data transfer limit - not Linden Lab. Thus, you're the one liable for it. End of Story. I thought you were leaving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Maelstrom Janus wrote: Opppps bumped - if only because the problems still there...still going on...still smashing up the bandwidth usage of the unwary.... while Lindens still expect you to cough up your tier fees and membership payments as if nothing happened because you agreed to signing up to a possibly buggy non continuous service... even if youve been out of sl for almost two weeks or more..... whew..2 months for meh!! \o/ thank you summer break for being mah savior in these troubled times.. i haz a good fortune for missing teh bad stuffs.. i'll just wait it out a little longer until i hear happiness in this area again..if it doesn't happen..oh well i guess i'll go in grab all my pics and call it a day *winks* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cully Andel Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Correction. An acknowledged LL bug forced so much data down that they managed to put paying customers over their limit with no warning whatsoever. In fact those people had to tell LL it was happening. I'm sick to death of people here saying it's not LL's fault when they have actually admitted it! You get that bit?? They HAVE admitted there was a bug that caused this problem. And AGAIN I point out that this was discovered by people who WERE checking their limits, but such a dramatic and sudden increase caught them off guard. Not everyone is so **bleep** they check their downloads every 5minutes. LL have acknowledge an error on their part. End of! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 No correction required - all data overages incurred which are not the fault of the ISP or their systems are the responsibility of the plan owner/bill signer - no ifs, ands or buts. It does not matter if Linden Lab admits an error on their part or not - they don't pay your bills. You do - ger over it and pay the bills. I am sick to death of people looking to place blame on another corporation when it is common bloody knowledge that data can spike for any reason what so ever. If it's the fault of your ISP (their hardware or software) then you can get compensation for it. The fault of a game service, "virtual world" (still classed as a game service mind you), a web site or any other reason? You are stuck with the charges and it is up to the other company's discretion as to wheather or not you get compensated for it. Why that is so hard for some entitlement happy people to understand is beyond me: You have a data limit each and every month: You monitor it - end of discussion. Anyone else who wishes to respond with a similar "correction", undertsnd this: I am well aware of the particulars of tis bug. I simply don't care about your sob stories or your excuses. When you are on a data limited plan, you watch your data like a hawk, there is no excuse to do otherwise. Find a bug in a service that puts you over? Report the bug to the service, pay your overage fee, let others know about the bug and then wait for it to be fixed. Do not start complaining and acting as if you are owed anything whatsoever. I am normally very sympathetic to those who make mistakes. I have no synpathy for anyone who is affected by this bug that develops a martyr complex or expects Linden Lab to compensate them for the overage. If they are ging to compensate their users who were affected, they will. If not? Togh luck. Complaining and pretending that an ISP's opinion on comensation carries any weight on the matter ought to net you a little forced vacation until such a time as one can act like a reasonable adult instead of someone throwing a tantrum. Anyone who has threatened to leave over this? There's the door - you can use it and cease complaining here or you can remain and wait it out. Those are the mature and responsible choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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