Buyers on MP have no rights

sunshine Juneberry · August 8, 2012

I bought a boot builders kit on Marketplace. The Perms were shown to be FULL PERM. The seller clearly stated the sculpt maps were full perm and not to be given out or sold. However when i received the sculpt maps, they were NO TRANSFER/NO MODIFY.

I dont mind being no modify, but as NO TRANSFER i cannot even apply them to a sculpt prim. It will not allow me to drop the sculpt map into the sculpt window.

The seller insists she did nothing nothing wrong listing the item as full perm and that the sculpt maps can be used as NO TRANSFER. but they cant!!!

What really gets me though is LL's response is that this is between me and the seller. They said i can write a review of the product, but all the seller has to do is remove the listing and then relist it and there wont be any bad review.

The seller can go on scamming and i'm out 1000 L$.

I've reopened my case like 3 times and i get the same response, LL does not get involved in L$ disputes between sellers and buyers and that i have to continue to try to contact seller. All the seller has to do is mute me and its problem solved...and i;m out 1000 L$ and not a thing I can do about it.

It's ridiculous!! Someone can blatantly scam on MP. They dont need any real product, dont need to use their real name, they can scam away anonymously with no overhead, no oversight, no real product, and no consequences.

Darren Scorpio · August 9, 2012

That's right LL will not get involved in resident to resident disputes. If the seller is listing something as full perm and it isn't then you can flag it. I think there is a category that says "not as advertised" or something of the sort. Good luck.

Ry0ta Exonar · August 9, 2012

sunshine Juneberry wrote:

What really gets me though is LL's response is that this is between me and the seller. They said i can write a review of the product, but all the seller has to do is remove the listing and then relist it and there wont be any bad review.

I know how you feel. If the seller removes and relists it to wipe out bad reviews, flag it for Disallowed Listing Practices >> Item Was Disabled and Relisted.

sunshine Juneberry wrote:

I've reopened my case like 3 times and i get the same response, LL does not get involved in L$ disputes between sellers and buyers and that i have to continue to try to contact seller. All the seller has to do is mute me and its problem solved...and i;m out 1000 L$ and not a thing I can do about it.

It's ridiculous!! Someone can blatantly scam on MP. They dont need any real product, dont need to use their real name, they can scam away anonymously with no overhead, no oversight, no real product, and no consequences.

Hence buyer beware like stated in https://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php

I think LL should make that policy prominently displayed in the marketplace like on every page of the listings.

Pamela Galli · August 9, 2012

Leave a review, and if the seller relists, then you can tell LL.

But although 1000L sounds like a fortune, it is really less than $4.00. When you have lost several hundred dollars when LL devalues land overnight, then you might have reason to fret.

Josh Susanto · August 9, 2012

$4 this time, sure.

But how many more such sales do you think there will be before the item has to be deleted and relisted?

sunshine Juneberry · August 9, 2012

Pamela Galli wrote:

Leave a review, and if the seller relists, then you can tell LL.

But although 1000L sounds like a fortune, it is really less than $4.00. When you have lost several hundred dollars when LL devalues land overnight, then you might have reason to fret.

Yeah, 4 dollars from me....4 dollars from another person...4 dollars from another...4 dollars...4 dollars...and no one can get their money back.

It's not the money, it's the fact that people can do this and there is nothing i can do to get my L$ back. I can be ripped off and i have no recourse and no help from LL who runs the site and profits from sales made on it.

It's only 4 dollars so it's easy for them to get away with it because no one makes a big enough stink over it...."oh it's only 4 dollars, don't fret it" and they can go on taking people for 4 dollars...2 dollars...1 dollar....it all adds up to rotten

sunshine Juneberry · August 9, 2012

Ry0ta Exonar wrote:

Hence buyer beware like stated in

https://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php

I think LL should make that policy prominently displayed in the marketplace like on every page of the listings.

The policy actually says "Linden Lab does not certify or endorse the operation of in-world games, vending machines, or retail locations; refunds must be requested from the owners of these objects."

Marketplace isn't IN-WORLD, and the fact that it's run and OWNED by Linden Labs, who profits from sales made on it, seems to me they just... in a way... stated they are liable for refunds lol.

P.S. i know LL isnt liable for it but they might want to look at their own disclaimer and rewrite it and like you said, put it in BOLD BIG WRITING...on every page and right above the check out button....."rip offs can and do happen on Marketplace and when they do, you can just kiss your L$ goodbye cause we aint lifting a finger to help"

Madeliefste Oh · August 9, 2012

sunshine Juneberry wrote:

What really gets me though is LL's response is that this is between me and the seller. They said i can write a review of the product, but all the seller has to do is remove the listing and then relist it and there wont be any bad review.

I've reopened my case like 3 times and i get the same response, LL does not get involved in L$ disputes between sellers and buyers and that i have to continue to try to contact seller. All the seller has to do is mute me and its problem solved...and i;m out 1000 L$ and not a thing I can do about it.

It's ridiculous!! Someone can blatantly scam on MP. They dont need any real product, dont need to use their real name, they can scam away anonymously with no overhead, no oversight, no real product, and no consequences.

I agree with you that it is ridiculous. Buyers have no rights at all and that is not a good situation, buyers should have more protection. Experiences like yours might end up in stopping to buy virtual goods at all, just because you don't want to be scammed any more.

It is not solely a resident to resident dispute, LL is involved in it. They took 5% of the price you paid for the product. That makes them partly responsible.

Pamela Galli · August 9, 2012

sunshine Juneberry wrote:

Pamela Galli wrote:

Leave a review, and if the seller relists, then you can tell LL.

But although 1000L sounds like a fortune, it is really less than $4.00. When you have lost several hundred dollars when LL devalues land overnight, then you might have reason to fret.

Yeah, 4 dollars from me....4 dollars from another person...4 dollars from another...4 dollars...4 dollars...and no one can get their money back.

It's not the money, it's the fact that people can do this and there is nothing i can do to get my L$ back. I can be ripped off and i have no recourse and no help from LL who runs the site and profits from sales made on it.

It's only 4 dollars so it's easy for them to get away with it because no one makes a big enough stink over it...."oh it's only 4 dollars, don't fret it" and they can go on taking people for 4 dollars...2 dollars...1 dollar....it all adds up to rotten

Well then, by all means, stay upset over it if that's what you want. <shrugs> And if you are not upset about your own loss but actually about the loss of all those others who will lose almost $4 -- are you upset about my loss of around $700 when LL devalued land? How about the merchant who lost most of her inventory last week and had to close her store? Also I read in the feeds that someone has cancer.

If you did not know before to read merchant return policies and to buy only from reputable, honest merchants, well -- now you do.

Pamela Galli · August 9, 2012

Madeliefste Oh wrote:

sunshine Juneberry wrote:

What really gets me though is LL's response is that this is between me and the seller. They said i can write a review of the product, but all the seller has to do is remove the listing and then relist it and there wont be any bad review.

I've reopened my case like 3 times and i get the same response, LL does not get involved in L$ disputes between sellers and buyers and that i have to continue to try to contact seller. All the seller has to do is mute me and its problem solved...and i;m out 1000 L$ and not a thing I can do about it.

It's ridiculous!! Someone can blatantly scam on MP. They dont need any real product, dont need to use their real name, they can scam away anonymously with no overhead, no oversight, no real product, and no consequences.

I agree with you that it is ridiculous. Buyers have no rights at all and that is not a good situation, buyers should have more protection. Experiences like yours might end up in stopping to buy virtual goods at all, just because you don't want to be scammed any more.

It is not solely a resident to resident dispute, LL is involved in it. They took 5% of the price you paid for the product. That makes them partly responsible.

How would this work? I don't know how many MP (and inworld) transactions take place per day, but I imagine at least in the tens of thousands -- how is LL supposed to investigate all the complaints -- surely there would be at least a thousand a day?

LL is not the government -- they don't have police investigators or courts and judges and prosecuters set up to handle small claims court. Should people pay a fee to sue another resident or should they be able to file frivolous lawsuits without penalty? Should they hire lawyers to represent them? How much time would merchants spend defending themselves in court?

The fact is that if you buy from people you do not know, you are taking a risk. There is no way to eliminate that risk. If you cannot handle the possibility of being ripped off then don't buy anything at all ever.

Meanwhile if you are concerned about others who will be ripped off, that is what reviews are for. Speaking of which, buyers are not the only ones with "no rights". People can and do leave malicious reviews in an attempt to destroy sales.

wrable Amat · August 9, 2012

right click "copy asset uuid" then open a new script inthe prim,goto sl wiki and look up llSetLinkPrimitiveParams http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSetPrimitiveParams you can paste the uuid inthe string and and use the map to set the shape.

example

This makes a

llSetPrimitiveParams([PRIM_TYPE,PRIM_TYPE_SCULPT,""PATES UUID HERE",PRIM_SCULPT_TYPE_SPHERE ]);

should work for you,read about the function becasue you might need to make it torus base or a different shape then i posted in the example.

im not sure if you can get the UUID if it is no mod and im not able to log in to try,but it is worth a go.

Hop eit helps.

Madeliefste Oh · August 9, 2012

Pamela Galli wrote:

LL is not the government -- they don't have police investigators or courts and judges and prosecuters set up to handle small claims court. Should people pay a fee to sue another resident or should they be able to file frivolous lawsuits without penalty? Should they hire lawyers to represent them? How much time would merchants spend defending themselves in court?

The fact is that if you buy from people you do not know, you are taking a risk. There is no way to eliminate that risk. If you cannot handle the possibility of being ripped off then don't buy anything at all ever.

LL is not the government, but LL is not staying out of resident to resident conflicts completely neither. When for example a neigbour builds a tree that sticks out on your land, you can AR, LL is coming to investigate and handle the situation.

There is no need for a court and the whole circus around it.

Paula001 Goldschein · August 9, 2012

what kind of rights are you thinking of?

i can't think of anything.

the option to be able to just delete a merchants listing? hehe some would love that!

i sympathise with you but you should have known a purchase on the marketplace can go either way.

when buying high priced items from merchants i don't know, i try to check them out before buying from them and go to their in world store to see the contents of the vendors etc..

Butch Daddy · August 9, 2012

I got quoted the terms of service when I complained. Linden Labs is not responsible, you deal with others at your own risk, you promise not to demand Linden Labs pay for someone elses scamming.

Then they asked me if I would demand that the owner of a shopping mall pay me back the money I lost when someone who rented a kiosk in their mall ripped me off. *shrugs*

I would hope the owner would stop letting scammers rent space, but I cannot really expect the owner of the mall to pay me back, or demand that the renter of the kiosk make good on what they sold me.

I would have to take them to court or something to get my money back. Not doing that over 10 bucks worth of virtual stuff.

Spica Inventor · August 9, 2012

'The seller can go on scamming and i'm out 1000 L$'. Well lets face it. L.L. makes their decisions on what they believe will make them more money. They think the cost of the extra overhead required to crack down on the scammers would be more than the loss from residents who decide to leave S.L. or spend more conservatively because of it. And as per usual they are probably short sided again and wrong again. L.L doesn't think scamming has reached epidemic proportions yet. Do you think it has? I do. ;-)

Pamela Galli · August 9, 2012

Madeliefste Oh wrote:

Pamela Galli wrote:

LL is not the government -- they don't have police investigators or courts and judges and prosecuters set up to handle small claims court. Should people pay a fee to sue another resident or should they be able to file frivolous lawsuits without penalty? Should they hire lawyers to represent them? How much time would merchants spend defending themselves in court?

The fact is that if you buy from people you do not know, you are taking a risk. There is no way to eliminate that risk. If you cannot handle the possibility of being ripped off then don't buy anything at all ever.

LL is not the government, but LL is not staying out of resident to resident conflicts completely neither. When for example a neigbour builds a tree that sticks out on your land, you can AR, LL is coming to investigate and handle the situation.

There is no need for a court and the whole circus around it.

And from what I hear, they don't do a very good job of that -- yet they can see whatever it is that is a nuisance and fix it. But with the marketplace think of all they would have to do to determine "who is right". They would have to employ many many more people to handle all the "court cases". And as a business owner, what if a Linden -- or more likely a Scout -- makes a mistake and rules against you and makes you delist something? Is there going to be an appeal process?

It is simply never going to happen. When people come here with complaints, they need to be told what their only recourse is, and it is not to wait for LL to start handling resident decisions. It is for them to understand clearly that they are taking a risk when they buy anything from anyone, and to buy only from reputable people if possible.

JohnMiddlefield · August 9, 2012

sunshine Juneberry wrote:

I bought a boot builders kit on Marketplace. The Perms were shown to be FULL PERM. The seller clearly stated the sculpt maps were full perm and not to be given out or sold. However when i received the sculpt maps, they were NO TRANSFER/NO MODIFY.

I dont mind being no modify, but as NO TRANSFER i cannot even apply them to a sculpt prim. It will not allow me to drop the sculpt map into the sculpt window.

The seller insists she did nothing nothing wrong listing the item as full perm and that the sculpt maps can be used as NO TRANSFER. but they cant!!!

What really gets me though is LL's response is that this is between me and the seller. They said i can write a review of the product, but all the seller has to do is remove the listing and then relist it and there wont be any bad review.

The seller can go on scamming and i'm out 1000 L$.

I've reopened my case like 3 times and i get the same response, LL does not get involved in L$ disputes between sellers and buyers and that i have to continue to try to contact seller. All the seller has to do is mute me and its problem solved...and i;m out 1000 L$ and not a thing I can do about it.

It's ridiculous!! Someone can blatantly scam on MP. They dont need any real product, dont need to use their real name, they can scam away anonymously with no overhead, no oversight, no real product, and no consequences.

This could be the case that the seller does not know how to set the permissions correctly, and did not bother to test the permissions themselves with an alt account before putting it up for sale. They think that the product has the right permissions, but it doesn't because the seller does not know any better.

I have come across several sellers like this - just not knowing how to set the permissions correctly. When I approached these sellters after buying their product, they were usuallly quite congenial and we worked together trying to sort the problem. However, the last time I did this, even though the seller worked hard at trying to get the permissions right, they just couldn't do it. So we left it at that. Sometimes setting permissions on a product that is made out of multiple prims, can be complicated. However, in your case, the problem is not complicated.

If this seller you have dealt with begins to receive similar complaints from other purchasers, they just might clue into the fact that they need to revisit the permissions setting. I doubt very much they understand that is it is their fault.

sunshine Juneberry · August 9, 2012

JohnMiddlefield wrote:

This could be the case that the seller does not know how to set the permissions correctly, and did not bother to test the permissions themselves with an alt account before putting it up for sale. They think that the product has the right permissions, but it doesn't because the seller does not know any better.

I have come across several sellers like this - just not knowing how to set the permissions correctly. When I approached these sellters after buying their product, they were usuallly quite congenial and we worked together trying to sort the problem. However, the last time I did this, even though the seller worked hard at trying to get the permissions right, they just couldn't do it. So we left it at that. Sometimes setting permissions on a product that is made out of multiple prims, can be complicated. However, in your case, the problem is not complicated.

If this seller you have dealt with begins to receive similar complaints from other purchasers, they just might clue into the fact that they need to revisit the permissions setting. I doubt very much they understand that is it is their fault.

I wish that was the case. I wrote her and explained to her that no transfer sculpt cant be applied to prim, but only recieved a nasty reply from and her and her alt.

She knows the permissions are set to NO MODIFY/NO TRANSFER and even used her alt to belittle me in the review discussion.

The whole thing stinks and it's partly why im a littlle worked up about it. The fact that i didnt get what i paid for then was rudely shrugged off when i asked for full perm sculpt maps. I'm suspecting the maps are not what is pictured.

As far as i know the maps are of the default apple.

sunshine Juneberry · August 9, 2012

wrable Amat wrote:

right click "copy asset uuid" then open a new script inthe prim,goto sl wiki and look up llSetLinkPrimitiveParams

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSetPrimitiveParams

you can paste the uuid inthe string and and use the map to set the shape.

example

This makes a

llSetPrimitiveParams([PRIM_TYPE,PRIM_TYPE_SCULPT,""PATES UUID HERE",PRIM_SCULPT_TYPE_SPHERE ]);

should work for you,read about the function becasue you might need to make it torus base or a different shape then i posted in the example.

im not sure if you can get the UUID if it is no mod and im not able to log in to try,but it is worth a go.

Hop eit helps.

Hi Thanks for trying..unfortunately the map is NO MODIFY as well as NO TRANSFER and it won't let me copy UUID

I'm really starting to doubt the maps are what are pictured in the ad and this is why the merchant refuses to send me ones i can use

sunshine Juneberry · August 9, 2012

Pamela Galli wrote:

Well then, by all means, stay upset over it if that's what you want. <shrugs> And if you are not upset about your own loss but actually about the loss of all those others who will lose almost $4 -- are you upset about my loss of around $700 when LL devalued land? How about the merchant who lost most of her inventory last week and had to close her store? Also I read in the feeds that someone has cancer.

If you did not know before to read merchant return policies and to buy only from reputable, honest merchants, well -- now you do.

You forgot to mention the starving children in Africa, and yes i am upset about that also.

This thread however isnt about LL devalueing land or the poor Africans, its about people being able to rip others off using Marketplace and not having to face any consequenses.

What should LL do?... I don't know. I never claimed to know.

maybe they should round up their accounts and send to the proceeds to devalued land owners lol

Maybe they should require payment info? It's required to upload mesh. It would scare off a lot of potential scammers who wouldnt want their real names on file with LL.

Maybe they could put that info on the sellers ad right next to the BUY button, something along the lines of "This seller has no payment info on file".

Maybe they could require you keep certain amount of L$ in Marketplace account? scammers wouldnt be able to just send all the L$ they make to under the radar accounts cause it would be tied up in disputes and withheld by Marketplace.

Of course LL doesnt want to hire a bunch of people and play Second Life Judge Judy, but i think they could take a couple small steps in order to make it a bit more difficult or prohibitve for potential scammers to work.

P.S. like i said...I don't know and dont claim to have the answers, i just know getting scammed isn't pleasant. Like you said, i am aware of it now, and will be much more careful making purchases on Marketplace :matte-motes-smile:

Darrius Gothly · August 9, 2012

sunshine Juneberry wrote:

[snip] ... Maybe they could put that info on the sellers ad right next to the BUY button, something along the lines of "This seller has no payment info on file". ... [snip]

Even though this topic has kinda sunk below the waterline, I actually LIKE this suggestion I copied above. LL doesn't have to require payment info on file to sell on Marketplace, but it sure would be nice if they highlighted in some fashion those that do not have any. It also wouldn't hurt to have "This account was created within the last 30 days" on brand new accounts too. IMHO these are the two primary attributes of accounts that are set up specifically for the purposes of scamming or selling stolen content.

Yes, Let the Buyer Beware ... but the Marketplace shouldn't shy away from putting in plain sight those details that every purchaser should know about a Merchant. That way even those without a clue as to how they can spot a potential scammer will at least have some obvious evidence that will help educate them further. Why should everyone have to learn by the "I should have known better" method? Can't we help people avoid losing money without sacrificing personal privacy and decency in the process?

Pamela Galli · August 10, 2012