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Darleen Emerald

Pathfinding on Main server has destroyed our inworld business

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Our  3 year old business Aircraft  sales business inworld has been completely destroyed by rolling out Pathfinding to the Main server ! All of the Aircraft we sell contain some aculpty CHILD prims that are PHANTOM.  All child sculptys have reverted to NON-phantom after the pathfinding rollout.  This causes  the large invisible "cubes" around the sculptys to raise the vehicle off the ground/runway  and tilt  the aircraft  in unwanted crazy rotation.

These aircraft  are sold as No modify,no transfer........all of  the  thousands  of Aircraft  that we sold to our customers during  the last 3 yearsare now  totally unuseable..........All of theses customers  will be IMing me  to ask  for their money  back.

Our business is ruined !.........How can you Lindens  roll out  Pathfinding  to the Main server Knowing full well it is loaded  with BUGS   that can cause existing vehicles to become inoperable???

This is not some new revelation......all of these bugs have been  reported long ago   in sand box and RC  test channels.

 

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Just reported to me, another version of the Pathfinding function that made the phantom sculpt map die before.

Now, when you unlink any prim, that phantom script dies, making linked sculpts all non-phantom. 

 

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According to Falcon Linden's comment on PATHBUG-69 of 21 April this should remedy itself automagically the next time you rez one of the aircraft.

If it doesn't, the remedy is to convert the whole linkset from prim physics type prim to convex hull (on the features tab) and then to use edit linked parts to convert the sculpties you want to phantom to physics shape none.

I recommend doing it this way round because, if you leave any prims as prims, the LI risks going through the roof.   But changes to the LI accounting system introduced to accommodate precisely this problem mean that, so long as everything's either convex hull or none, the LI should be no higher than it was before and may even be lower.

ETA  If you simply need to convert all the child prims in the linkset that are sculpties to phantom, this should do the trick:

 

//converts whole linkset to convex hull and then converts all child sculpties to PHYSICS_SHAPE_NONE, effectively phantoming them default{	state_entry()	{		llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast(LINK_SET,[PRIM_PHYSICS_SHAPE_TYPE,PRIM_PHYSICS_SHAPE_CONVEX]);		integer max = llGetNumberOfPrims()+1;		while(max-->1){//don't try to convert the root to PHYSICS_SHAPE_NONE			if(llList2Integer(llGetLinkPrimitiveParams(max,[PRIM_TYPE]),0)== PRIM_TYPE_SCULPT){				llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast(max,[PRIM_PHYSICS_SHAPE_TYPE,PRIM_PHYSICS_SHAPE_NONE]);			}		}		llRemoveInventory(llGetScriptName());	}}

 Just drop it in, and it will do the conversion and remove itself.

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This is deja vu all over again.  LL did the same thing with water physics and flying when they first introduce the Havok Physics several years ago.  At that time boating was destroyed and all water sports as well as the aircraft business as I recall.  The sad thing that those that had been testing Havok on the beta grid were totally ignored by LL when they reported these problems and it was installed anyway.  The result was a lot of heavy losses for players and business failures though those that adapted to the new physics had a windfall, selling new items to old customers whose old planes, yachts and swimmers and pools no longer worked.  Also people stopped supporting the beta grid and we soon were faced with the RC system or restarts.  It appears LL lacks institutional memory or maybe just does not care and now we see the whole thing again.

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Darleen Emerald wrote:

Can you tell me how this can fix all the 1000's of Aircraft we have sold that are
NO MODIFY
??

According to Falcon Linden's comment on the jira I mentioned, 

 

  • 1) If a linkset uses the hack and also uses new accounting (aka mesh accounting or land impact), the first time it is rezzed on a pathfinding sim the hacked prim will be set to physics shape type none. Since the linkset already uses new accounting, this will not negatively impact land impact (in fact, it might reduce your land impact). It may affect a small amount of content that relies on link number of higher numbered prims in collision events by way of llDetectedLinkNumber()
  • 2) If a linkset uses the hack and does NOT use new accounting, the relevant prims will be modified such that they collide only with the terrain. Other than that, behavior should be unchanged. This may impact some land vehicles that previously had hacked phantom prims which did not collide with the terrain.

  • 3) No new linksets can be created that use the hack, and any linking or unlinking event (other than seating an avatar) will remove the hack on existing content.

So they should be modifying themselves automatically when people rez them.   Is that not happening?

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I guess that contacting Falcon Linden with details what's happening (or, rather, not happening) and where -- that would be important, I think -- is the next step, then.    I don't know much about vehicles, but I was concerned generally about llVolumeDetect child prims getting broken in buildings,  which is why I started following the issue, and I thought it had been anticipated and fixed.    Looks like it hasn't, from what you say.   

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Whether it was a hack to begin with or not... the problem is two-fold:

* No-mod vehicles (for whatever reason they're no-mod) will be affected because the phantom status will NOT apply to ground collisions anymore (at least that's how I see Falcons comment)

* Even if that problem wasn't there - the new physics engine changes mean that ground vehicles work differently. Previously, it was possible to just have a flat prim slide over the ground. Now, that's a very, very bad idea

None of this affects any of my vehicles, but I have heard of people who are having a hell of a time. For businesses it means they'll have to re-do their old content and provide an update path for their customers.

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Such is the hazard of exploiting hacks to accomplish something. The logical solution is to make the necessary changes to your creations and when someone contacts you with an issue to verify they actually own the older version and give them an updated version. The number of people still in SL using an old version is likely quite small compared to total sales.

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I think a part of the problem is that the collision behaviour is changed.

2) If a linkset uses the hack and does NOT use new accounting, the relevant prims will be modified such that they collide only with the terrain

Phantom prims are not supposed to collide with anything, surely?

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WolfBaginski Bearsfoot wrote:

I think a part of the problem is that the collision behaviour is changed.

2) If a linkset uses the hack and does NOT use new accounting, the relevant prims will be modified such that they collide only with the terrain

Phantom prims are not supposed to collide with anything, surely?

But llVolumeDetect(TRUE) prims are supposed to collide with everything, at least when llVolumeDetect is called from the root prim, which is where it's supposed to be called from, so you pays your money and takes your choice.

I have to say, in general, that all the time I've been using the llVolumeDetect hack/undocumented feature, which is about five years now, I've always been aware I was taking a chance, just I was when I used posjump.  

This was brought home to me the hard way about three or four years ago, when LL unexpectedly broke part of llVolumeDetect before, in that they stopped you from being able to toggle it on and off in child prims, with the result that my linked phantom doors stopped working all of a sudden and all had to be redone.    At least this time, we've been given several months' warning and a sensible, supported way of phantoming child prims.

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WolfBaginski Bearsfoot wrote:

I think a part of the problem is that the collision behaviour is changed.

2) If a linkset uses the hack and does NOT use new accounting, the relevant prims will be modified such that they collide only with the terrain

Phantom prims are not supposed to collide with anything, surely?

That is the same old behavior. Physical phantoms always ignored other objects, but still stopped at the terrain and could trigger land_collision events.

Physical llVolumeDetect objects register collisions with anything that isn't phantom, but can sink through the terrain and even go offworld that way.

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Darleen Emerald wrote:

Can you tell me how this can fix all the 1000's of Aircraft we have sold that are
NO MODIFY
??

Fix the problem, send the update out to your customers.  (you do keep records of your customers and have an update system, right?)

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Darien Caldwell wrote:


Darleen Emerald wrote:

Can you tell me how this can fix all the 1000's of Aircraft we have sold that are
NO MODIFY
??

Fix the problem, send the update out to your customers.  (you do keep records of your customers and have an update system, right?)

This is all fine and dandy but what will I do with my no mod vehicles that the Merchant is no longer in SL?

But of course it was MY FAULT for purchasing something that was NO MOD. 

We fall back to readily on "Consumer Beware," and ignore how the general population thinks.

What they expect is to be able to log in, get in their vehicle and start driving.  But of course what we have learned to do is accept that on any given day something is not going to work.  How can you call this acceptable and just push the responsibility back upon the Merchant and the Consumer?

One of the benefits of NO MOD to Merchants is it protects your business if you choose to use it.  While I do not copybot, I can look at how a MOD object is made and replicate it if I want.  Part of how I learned to build and use scripts and add animations and change textures, etc, was by taking apart modifiable freebies and seeing how they worked.

But regardless of that, we need to think in terms of the general population of SL.  While no doubt there can be benefits reaped from Pathfinding, the question is at what cost?    Personally I lost several hours of "play time" to all these changes and a no copy build.  And while I haven't checked all my vehicles yet, so far one appears to still be working OK, but another one which is really one of my favorites, appears to be borked at the moment.  One thing I am not is happy right now.

 

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Perhaps unrelated but I recently noticed that using the arrow keys to turn my helicopters no longer works properly. The vehicles lag very badly in turning in some sims. I can only imagine that this is due to some similar update that has altered the LSL with which that part of the script is coded.

Whether you think I should have a "customer list" or an "update path", or not, the fact remains that the more obstacles and issues that pop up out of nowhere, the less likely I am to continue creating. There are a number of shortcuts and tricks that are used when building and scripting in LSL, and I am under the impression that if something is used by the vast majority of people, then it stops being a shortcut and becomes a feature that needs to be protected (like mega prims).

For those who are talking about institutional memory, please remember that LL barely has one: they've let everyone who used to work there go, so no-one is around to remember what happened before.

Certainly my option this time is just to take my helicopters off sale and not bother building any new stuff. I imagine a good number of people will follow suit. Welcome to a leaner marketplace, with less choice in 5 colours from large mesh developers only.

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Mavromichali Szondi wrote:

Perhaps unrelated but I recently noticed that using the arrow keys to turn my helicopters no longer works properly. The vehicles lag very badly in turning in some sims. I can only imagine that this is due to some similar update that has altered the LSL with which that part of the script is coded.

Whether you think I should have a "customer list" or an "update path", or not, the fact remains that the more obstacles and issues that pop up out of nowhere, the less likely I am to continue creating.
There are a number of shortcuts and tricks that are used when building and scripting in LSL, and I am under the impression that if something is used by the vast majority of people, then it stops being a shortcut and becomes a feature that needs to be protected (like mega prims).

For those who are talking about institutional memory, please remember that LL barely has one: they've let everyone who used to work there go, so no-one is around to remember what happened before.

Certainly my option this time is just to take my helicopters off sale and not bother building any new stuff. I imagine a good number of people will follow suit. Welcome to a leaner marketplace, with less choice in 5 colours from large mesh developers only.

"There are a number of shortcuts and tricks that are used when building and scripting in LSL, and I am under the impression that if something is used by the vast majority of people, then it stops being a shortcut and becomes a feature that needs to be protected (like mega prims)."

 

That is a huge issue.  If one thinks about it, many of the things we do in SL are based on a "HACK."

Like using an Alpha to hide an Avatar's body so they can wear Mesh clothes. 

I'd have to go and read carefully but I am under the impression that if the Mesh Deformer was in place, there would be no need for this "hack."  But that is what using the Alpha really is.  It is a "HACK."

 

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I don't think I've seen anyone who is involved with the deformer, or testing it (including Qarl) say that the deformer will obviate the need for alpha masks with mesh.    The deformer is more about making the mesh more or less correspond to your shape, and then using alpha masks to hide the bits where it doesn't, as opposed to having -- as we do at the moment -- having to tweak our shapes to correspond to the mesh and then use an alpha mask to finish the job.

@Mavromichali -- there's been no changes to LSL recently that affect control events.   Whatever's causing your helicopters to misbehave, it's not the control event breaking. 

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Perrie Juran wrote:

But that is what using the Alpha really is.  It is a "HACK."

 

I wouldn't know what the official definition of " hack" is, but alpha is supported by LL.

That means they can't just break it without a very good reason and working alternative, unlike the phantom child trick/hack, whatever you want to call it.

 

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LL volume detect is screwed it is not totally broke but is very unstable making all race gates or anything of such nature using a phantom prim to sense somthing by using volume detect will have a small glitch randomly that makes it non phantom for a slight second ruining all oval racing in secondlife

 

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As to what to do, seriously, assuming Linden Labs has no magic fix:

 

1)   Get a product updater in place so that you can at least deal with this issue going forward in time for your customers.

I'd recommend the hippoUpdate Automatic product update server.  It seems to do the the job about as easily as one can hope.

http://www.hippo-technologies.co.uk/products/index.php

2)  Assuming the prior products are totally useless,  there's no need for the users to return them or destroy them,  And if they're no transfer, the couldn't return them anyway.  So,  assuming you don't have an easy way to recall everyone who bought one and send them an update,  you might consider the following strategy:

    a)   Build a fixed new version of your product.

    b)  Put it in an automatic vendor set to give that version FREE to anyone who's in the vendor's group. (but full cost to anyone else.)   HippoVend will do that.

    c)  Offer group membership to anyone who shows up at your store with a copy of the old version in hand. (rezzable space for at least 2 minutes.)

And,  then, you can send email or a notecard to users and anyone in the user group that explains what to do to get the new version.

Of course, offering group membership selectively is something only an avatar, or robotic avatar can do. (I'd offer the product, but that gets into inventory issues that the HippoVend thing solves.)

For example,  SmartBots  has a product called the "Group Inviter" at http://www.smartbots2life.com/  can make such an offer, based on actions you can detect with another script.

"The weekly subscription is just L$79. You can invite residents when they come, buy your product or rent the land from you."  (So, if you restrict who can buy or come in the door to those who just rezzed an old model plane,  the product will do the rest.)


Somewhat kludgy, but fully automatic once it's set up.  I think it would work.

Starlight Harbour

 

 

 

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