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Attica Bekkers

Should i file griever reports ahead of the event?

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Hi,

I attend, and sometimes help run a weekly speed build,that is not on a private island, and it is pretty much always the subject of griefing,

Live support wont help. Well sometimes they promise to come (not  to ban anyone,just to clear away the prims that are making sounds, particles and clogging the place up) but they have never actually come.

As I know the event will be held at the same time and place every week, should I submit a pre-emptive griefing report, I could do up to 12 weeks in advance? Does anyone know if that would increase the likelyhoood of a response? Im not being sarcastic in any way, this is a serious actual question.

Last weeks event was moved due the primsof someone that many people claim to have reported for weeks. It seems we have no repsonse to long term or short term requests for help. Would a 12 week lead in time be enough? the chances they will not be needed are slim.

It is impossible to plan and advertise the event. We do anyway, optomists that we are, And we have had to move the event so  very often it is becoming the norm.

Also would anyone know how I ask to get policy changed so that lab develops a policy of responding in a timely manner when events on linden land or mainland are being disrupted? Such a policy would I think help the lab a lot, (and would definitely help my event- I am motivated!)

 

 

 

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I have zero expertise in Abuse Reporting, so this is strictly an opinion and a procedurally uninformed one at that.

While I sympathize with your problem, I have to think reporting griefing in advance of said griefing actually taking place is a really, really, bad idea. I don't know how much credibility LL assigns to your complaints but that would certainly detract from it (or at least it would if I were LL).

What you might want to do, and forgive me if that's what you meant, is find a way to let someone at LL know in advance the time and location of your contest—with documentation of previous problems—so that possibly they'd be motivated to actually have someone there expecting to catch the villians in the act.

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Sounds like what happens in the the vortex sandbox, there's a long history of people asking LL to help there with the grieffing, and LL not doning anything.  I don't think LL will do any thing, it makes a great advertisement for getting a premium account.  It's the price we pay for having free anonymous accounts, with diverse building and scripting tools. 

Reporting a future crime is probably not a good idea.

The only way your going to have any control over your event is to have it some place you have access to the land setting.

 

 

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Well I dont really file abuse reports so I dont know what my rep would be. 

The lab do know, the event is a sandbox one! I really enjoy going to them.

I wont do a preemptive report, . I have written to them with an idea to let events happen:)!

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phaedra Exonar wrote:

The only way your going to have any control over your event is to have it some place you have access to the land setting.

 

^^that

only other alternative to day old anon accounts is to move the event to a Premium public sandbox. gets expensive for them to greif those sandboxes. rules out tho anyone who wants to legit participate who is not premium account

+

for an advance notice antigrief system to work then linden would have to pretty much have an employee tasked to speciifically guard your event. even be present. not sure they would be prepared to pay for that. mostly bc then every other event organiser in SL would want the same standard of service

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People are saying that mainland and  linden land simply cannot have events planned on it, if true this a disaster for the lab. .

 At the core of SL is community and even relative hermits want to use their land and maybe show stuff to people..

I think every Sler,or at lhe least every premium Sler,  DOES have the right to expect that the lindens will respond straight away if they cant attend or run or plan an event because of griefing. Second life looks bad to someone, perhaps many someones, everytime an event fails to happen. 

Fixing that event should have taken five minutes maximum.

They will be (already have been) spending around twenty times that long responding to the ticket and explaining why they didnt act. 

They really will be.

I hate to think how many man hours they have spent  following up on this one issue for this one event, every week.  

Gosh if they just came for less than five minutes every time we needed, over a year and half that would have added up to a total spend of time less than the time it is taking them in NOT taking five minutes (three minutes if they were good and had clue about how to do it) for this single time- last Sundays event!

 

 

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i not disagree with your sentiments

+

back in the day there was a number of sandbox foxes groups set up by concerned residents to police public sandboxes. was a big push at the time to give them land powers. linden said no to that. use the AR system

since then has been some public spaces where land control has been given to residents in partnership with linden. LEA and Blake Sea groups. dont know of any others

even the ancient resident administered mainland infohubs dont have ban powers for the resident admins. just prim removal i think

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16 wrote:


phaedra Exonar wrote:

The only way your going to have any control over your event is to have it some place you have access to the land setting.

 

^^that

only other alternative to day old anon accounts is to move the event to a Premium public sandbox. gets expensive for them to greif those sandboxes. rules out tho anyone who wants to legit participate who is not premium account

+

for an advance notice antigrief system to work then linden would have to pretty much have an employee tasked to speciifically guard your event. even be present. not sure they would be prepared to pay for that. mostly bc then every other event organiser in SL would want the same standard of service

Which is one of the reasons why LL is not likely to do anything beyond respond to ARs, and why this problem isn't going to go away any time soon, because forcing every one to have premiums account or limiting the building and scripting tools would be bad for SL.  But currently the only way your going to have any control over an event is to have it some place you have access to the land setting.  You don't need a premium account for that you just need to have the right group abilities.

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Well I asked and the lab has no provision for special event planning or help.

Any suggestions have to be done via blog or forums. L:inend lab has noway a residedent can communicate other than these.

I  looks like support can help if the region is experiencing trouble *unless *the trouble is caused by girefers. So its down to the AR system whic isi never responded to and help never given.

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Someone owns the land where you have these events. Someone associated with putting them on must have some kind of rapport with the owner because normally, you wouldn't just saunter onto a stranger's land and have an event. 

So why aren't those two (or more) people able to come to a solution in terms of stopping/ejecting the offenders?

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Attica Bekkers wrote:

People are saying that mainland and  linden land simply cannot have events planned on it, if true this a disaster for the lab. .

 
At the core of SL is community and even relative hermits want to use their land and maybe show stuff to people.
.

I think every Sler,or at lhe least every premium Sler,  DOES have the right to expect that the lindens will respond straight away if they cant attend or run or plan an event because of griefing. 
Second life looks bad to someone, perhaps many someones, everytime an event fails to happen. 

Fixing that event should have taken five minutes maximum.

They will be (already have been) spending around twenty times that long responding to the ticket and explaining why they didnt act. 

They really will be.

I hate to think how many man hours they have spent  following up on this one issue for this one event, every week.  

Gosh if they just came for less than five minutes every time we needed, over a year and half that would have added up to a total spend of time less than the time it is taking them in NOT taking five minutes (three minutes if they were good and had clue about how to do it) for this single time- last Sundays event!

 

 

Here's the problem even if LL showed up to your event and banned all the grieffres there, it wouldn't do any good,  grieffer don't have just one account they have many and can all ways just make more, so they will just keep coming back, and the more you do to get rid of them the more they take that as a challenge.

Every RL friend I've tried to get in to SL has left because of grieffers, I'd love to see LL do some thing, but there's not much they can do to stop this on public land with open building and scripting for every one, with out limiting what people can do in SL or forcing every one to have a premium account, which wouldn't be good for SL.  A lot of other people have tried to get LL to do some thing about this sadly nothing has changed, vortex is a great example if your looking for what to do to change this and want to see what other people have tried.

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion/Vortex-the-future/m-p/1446657#M1708

 

 

 

 

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If you are hosting an event do this.

1. Make sure you, or someone on the region has ESTATE rights to Eject/Ban.

2. Eject/Ban the annoying people aka gesture spammers, or griefers It is doubtful LL will do anything over someone spamming gestures that isn't owned by LL aka mainland. Playing gestures like Farts, or a sound isn't griefing generally unless they are spamming it, and like bumping into everyone with scripts. I would call it griefing, but under LL TOS its unlikely they will get banned right away even if they did get suspended LL would call it a residentual dispute.

3. If griefers come into the region Ban them, if they start griefing with MultiTools or scripts, Abuse Report them.

Before your event.

Turn off Rez, possibly scripts so griefers can't rez, this doesn't prevent Sim Crashing, Asset Crashing, or Wearing a graphics card crasher which LL will do something about if you abuse report such, however it doesn't stop griefers you get banned you just make a new account IP bans don't work hardware bans currently are useless, and if you are getting griefed by these type of griefers more than once then it is likely you crossed them, or someone linked to you has crossed someone and a typical REVENGE grief.

Don't show griefers any attention at all, don't act like you care you can just mute them usually sometimes they go away, if you can't do any of these chances are the griefers will grief you.

Also every event actually listed on the events page is likely to get GRIEFERS you are publically listing your event and sometimes griefers pick random events to Grief for the day its like a Lulz party for them, don't list your event or be ready to report griefers.

Generally LL does do something, but the problem like I have said many times in many post griefers make account after account and don't care how many times LL bans them.

Otherwise try to enjoy SL, Just eject/ban all griefers you don't like and go about the business, should the sim actually get filled with griefer objects then do this.

Admin > GOD Tools, Objects, Set Target > Delete all of targets objects,  and instantly all prims rez by this avatar will be perma deleted from the server, at least I think I got it right for viewer 1, I don't like viewer 2, but viewer 2 and Viewer 3 both have the same functions listed a bit differently, and even if they didn't you could just use packets.

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Attica's initial question is an intriguing one, and I am guessing was made with a sense of desperation, as many who have been involved with this specific matter probably share. She doesnt name the place and the people....but I will......

What some on this thread may not realize is that the land Attica refers to is, in fact, LL land. It's owned by LL, yet managed by a group of residents. (the residents who actually worked WITH LL to found the place initially)

This arrangement actually worked fairly well (virtually no griefing) until LL made some changes and bascially created this new problem. How? They forced a rename of the region (against protests)  from 'Zindra Help Vortex' to the griefer-attracting 'Vortex Adult Sandbox'. After the name change, griefing increased and never slowed down. The name-change alone could be blamed for most of these issues, and there NEVER was a substantial argument to do the change. The argument presented was completely ridiculous and demonstrated a lack of understanding regarding Search systems etc. Basically, the LL administration caused the griefer problem by making a really bad decision.


If they were serious in any way abt curtailing the griefing, they'd switch the name back as a start.

Secondly, the managing staff have never been given the basic powers they need to do the managing. Trust has not been shown. While at least one other example exists in SL of LL land being managed by residents who have powers, the Lab in this case has refused to make an analagous arrangement. I won't iterate consipracy theories here, but suffice to say its been a pattern of the new administration (since the real community staff was let go ages ago) to terminate community projects and to even target individual residents to undermine community efforts they've bene involved with.

The Vortex is one of the last few LL-related community initiatives standing, and it needs real TLC to remain alive. It takes vision...and trust. And perhaps a truly community-oriented adminstration within the Lab.

 

 

 

 

 

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I'd consider filing an AR against someone (and afaik any AR has to be targeted on a person) just because they might in the future grief you to be griefing in itself...

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As both a new member to the group of folks trying to help visitors at the Zindra sandbox, as well as a frequent user of the sandbox myself, I can't tell you how frustrating it is when you enter the sandbox only to see the following - and know that there isn't a thing you can do about it except file an AR and HOPE someone decides to read it and take action.  I don't care as much about the ability to ban as I do about all of the help staff having the ability to return objects to griefers. That in itsself would be a huge improvement. We were blessed when LL finally came and made a parceled off section for the landing point that the general public can't rez on, as that helped a lot in preventing griefers from targetting the landing point - that being said, there's still a dire need for more to be done.

7/27/2012 - 10:26PM PDT - Garbage Bag Attack - This one was  Aside from creating a huge amount of lag and covering 3/4 of the sandbox, - this one left 0 prims left for anyone to build.

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/7614/garbagebagattackatzindr.jpg

 

08/06/2012 - 12:44AM PDT - Spinning Prims & Particles - This one left about 3000 prims to build with, but who could build or even move with the massive amount of lag it created.

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/696/spinningprimparticleatt.jpg

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As part of the Vortex Help Staff. I have made the following compromise suggetion several time, actual powers would be better.

 

Since LL does not seem to want to give out any actual powers:

Bump ARs at Vortex from Vortex Staff Members to the top of the queue, or give us special chanel(method) to call for help.

 

And the same for any other LL public locatons with a caretaker group.

I am sure this could be automated.

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Hi

Thanks everyone I started this thread cos I was wondering if there was a way i could communicate with second life a need for a sim restart to return a sim to functionality ahead of time.

I am trying get help with sim performance from support, and dontmind booking them ahead of time if it were possible.  Its kind of weird that cos someone maybe deliberately put spinny prims everywhere support must leave them and sims tays broken, but if they accidently did it ,support could help.. I honestly believe that if dont AR then its still just a performance issue.

So far the answer is pretty much no. I was actually completely serious with the question. I thought giving them a lot of lead in time that they are needed for a sim restart might help.

 I just like entering speed builds and I compete at others too!

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Attica is a dear friend. I am so sorry to hear this is happening to your speed build event. To whoever is doing this - Attica selflessly devotes her time to many in SL and is a great person. The speed build event, which I can never seem to attend because of RL, is geared to help people practice their building skills.

Attica if there is any way I can help, please let me know.  xo

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I am wondering myself if land control woudn't be a better option. One out two speed build events get griefed. We have to move almost every week to a different location which seems to me is inconvenient. Maybe it should, as someone suggested, be held on a land controlled location indeed. It doesn't seem like LL will do much to solve the issue.

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Hi Melita, thanks! The speed build i always invite you to is a different one I go to, a PG one, that never has problems as it is on an island:):) Im enthusiastic about speed building as it can be such fun

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Ginette, please enlighten me. How does a name change cause griefing? I'm not sure I get the problem. However I agree with you that the managers should be able to manage. Why on earth are they there in the first place for then? Observe the damage? That make no sense to me. I don't get why LL would sabotage community work. Is it because it is not profitable?

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I am not sure how reversible the problem is now, anyway Nicci, now that the name change damage has been done.

Let me explain it this way:

1. Before the infamous name change (when it was Zindra Help Vortex), the marketing had a good, sophisticated brand to work with, and we had some established behaviors in place, not to mention a public perception that the Vortex was very LL-endorsed. We had set a precdent. Your average griefer didnt know to look for the Zindra Help Vortex and if they did find it, they were very outnumbered by people who were working hand-in-hand with LL to create a truly adult experience.
Also, the 'Zindra' name attached to had certrain offcial marketability.

 

2. Even the LL administration's  reasoning made no sense, (they claimed switching the region name would help in Search, which is crazy because its parcel names that really matter and besides, the place ALREADY had a well-established name) and even though they were warned this would increase griefing, LL did it anyway (urged on by a troll or 2...no comment). It's simple: 'Vortex Adult Sandbox' is a magnetic term for griefers, who had been laying in wait for an 'adult sandbox' to attack. Not only does the name attract griefers on its own, but the fact that LL distanced itself from the Vortex through that and other mishgaps, has shown the griefers that LL just doesnt care enough to work with the staff, and in fact, has completely ignored the staff. All fo this adds up to more and more aggresive griefers.

And it all started with that name change. The name itself, and the symbolism of changing ti depsite the staff's well-being.

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I agree...before the name change Zindra Help Vortex was a peaceful place free of griefing. But we also have to consider that at that time it was mainly adults accessing that sandbox. Since LL lowered the qualifications for adult status and teens have been entering, this has had a profound impact along with that name change to an official sandbox on the radar.

With regard to the lack of a response from LL regarding griefing and cleanup, this has been a problem with all the linden sandboxes. At one time Lindens did respond by showing up, cleaning up, even trying to reason with the offending resident. This is no longer their policy. Furthermore, Vortex Adult Sandbox is a "2 Hour Return" sandbox. This means in 2 hours objects are returned to their owners. It is my opinion this highly lowers the priority of cleaning something up that will be gone in 2 hours or less anyways. SL is a big place, with many Linden sandboxes. They get swamped with ARs. I personally am happy if they just give discipline for the bad behavior and in most cases they still do. Of course, it is not a battle that can be won, alts and new accounts can be created quite easily. That's just the way it is folks!

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well said, Edfred.

Sadly, even with the best punishments and discipline LL could ever do (if they ever did).....it actually would not address the real issue: prevention.

For example, if you plan and market an event then someone shows up to destroy it,  you lose prospective long-term residents to SL. Its too late at that point. Punishing the griefers after the fact doesnt matter. The damage has bene done to your 'attraction and retention' plans.  As usual, the lab is its own worst enemy here, choosing the exact policies which undermine the supposed goals.

1. reversing the name change would be a profound first step

2. empowering the Vortex staff (exactly the same way the lab already does with LEA...so there IS precdent) would be the brilliant next step

3. Getting the publicity out there that Vortex is for Adults....and non-adult behavior will not be tolerattd going forward, because it damages business and is a liability

(that's my recipe for helping the Vortex)

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Ginette Pinazzo wrote:

Attica's initial question is an intriguing one, and I am guessing was made with a sense of desperation, as many who have been involved with this specific matter probably share. She doesnt name the place and the people....
but I will......

What some on this thread may not realize is that the land Attica refers to is, in fact, LL land. It's owned by LL, yet managed by a group of residents. (the residents who actually worked WITH LL to found the place initially)

This arrangement actually worked fairly well (virtually no griefing) until LL made some changes and bascially created this new problem. How? They forced a rename of the region (against protests)  from 'Zindra Help Vortex' to the griefer-attracting 'Vortex Adult Sandbox'. After the name change, griefing increased and never slowed down. The name-change alone could be blamed for most of these issues, and there NEVER was a substantial argument to do the change. The argument presented was completely ridiculous and demonstrated a lack of understanding regarding Search systems etc. Basically, the LL administration caused the griefer problem by making a really bad decision.

 

If they were serious in any way abt curtailing the griefing, they'd switch the name back as a start.

Secondly, the managing staff have never been given the basic powers they need to do the managing. Trust has not been shown. While at least one other example exists in SL of LL land being managed by residents who have powers, the Lab in this case has refused to make an analagous arrangement. I won't iterate consipracy theories here, but suffice to say its been a pattern of the new administration (since the real community staff was let go ages ago) to terminate community projects and to even target individual residents to undermine community efforts they've bene involved with.

The Vortex is one of the last few LL-related community initiatives standing, and it needs real TLC to remain alive. It takes vision...and trust. And perhaps a truly community-oriented adminstration within the Lab.

 

 

 

 

 

Well if it is a SandBox getting hit this would explain it right here. All the Sandbox's in Second Life get hit quite often by griefers even some private ones, and there isn't much you can do about it, and not much Linden Lab will do, they will ban the griefer over time if reported, however you can make as many accounts as you want and keep coming back that is the problem.

See out of years of dealing with griefers, and CopyBot, and Trolls I know how they think, I also know how to grief and do the same BS as these griefers attacking all the Sandboxes in SL, so I know how to deal with them as well, and no it isn't me who griefs X person, if it were truly me as some griefers have used my name before I would not give any info that could be tracked back to me.

So here are your options.

1. Set region auto return to like 3-5 minutes.

2. Set Land Group to build only.

3. Always have people on with Estate Rights.

4. Have someone online who knows how to debug basic viewer functions, clear cache, and can immediately log back in on crashing, or knows how to disable Graphics card crashers and such.

5. If a griefer comes in and fills the sim instantly,  go to Estate settings Disable Physics/Scripts, and then go to Admin, God Tools, and delete all the griefers objects on the sim, Instantly problem solved.

6. If your sim actually crashes, CALL Linden Lab as an Estate Manager, or Owner, and tell them your region is offline it is a good way to get their griefer account Banned fast.

However know that There is no such thing as a Real Ban on the internet, I get banned from SL, I laugh, change my IP, change my hardware info, Bam new account, I get banned from a Ventrilo server for that matter change my info go right back, I get banned from a forum I make a new account. On the internet without secure verification like Phone Verification, or RL Identity verification there is no such thing as a REAL Ban.  This is still my first ever created SL account, so don't worry folks im not here to grief you ;).

I have in my entire SL time seen Linden Lab Ban accounts for raiding a sim which I will not give the name of, the same griefer came back over and over again told the linden to ( 4 Letter Word) himself and other trash talk got banned, came right back and did it again over and over again like for hours so I know there isn't much you yourself can do.

Of course this depends on exactly what the griefer is doing in the sim on how you are going to deal with the griefer and what actions to take. Sometimes some new resident is given an object in a sandbox and they rez it by accident not knowing any better so it really depends on the situation what type of actions I would take against the person.

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