Pathfinding Rollout

[Marianne McCann]

I'm a little confused this week, with the on-again-and-off-again Pathfinding rollout onto LeTigre. So a couple questions, if anyone knows the answer...

1. Was the pathfinding project actually rolled to leTigre, or was that pulled?

2. Do we have a sense of what is next for the rollout?

Mostly selfish, as I really want to be able to fly my mesh planes again, but also just curious generally what sort of time frame we have here.

[Ayesha Askham]

@Marianne

No, Pathfinding did NOT bring Havok(7) to LeTigre on Wednesday.  My home sim is LeTiggy so I know!  As to what comes next, all I can suggest is you keep an eye on this thread, and perhaps the Server Group (assuming that there IS such a thing for Agni.

There are a LOT of bugs that need ironing out in the Pathfinder code before it is safe for the Grid as a whole, and de-bugging it will take time.  I just hope that LL will now give it that time.

[Nalates Urriah]

Oskar talked about what rolled out at the Beta Server Group meeting. There was a mess up and Le Tigre had to be rerolled because of a build/version hickup.

PF is on Le Tigre now. But, not all of Le Tigre has PF ENABLED. The Lab now uses a new process that allows enableing and disabking a feature without having to restart the region. They are using that to enable various regions within Le Tigre.

Also, a number of region owners that asked to be in the PF Beta did not make it in pre-RC. Those regions have now been added to the Le Tigre RC.

[Ayesha Askham]

@Nalates

Your reply staggers me. 

Firstly there is no mention of Pathfinding code in the release notes of the server version rolled to our sim and announced in the revised Release Post.

Secondly your reply suggests that different parts of LeTigre are on different versions of Havok...this would be disastrous for the sailing and racing communities.  At least one can guess which sets of sims are safe to sail into if one knows the version of Havok rolled to it.

While I do not doubt that you are reporting what you were told, all I see is yet more indication that Linden Lab have "Lost the Plot" utterly on this matter.

[Nalates Urriah]

Ayesha, your tag line " If I know where I am I don't know what I'm doing there." is apt.

There is nothing in my post to suggest there are different versions of the server code or Havok running in Magnum. With 3 packages running in RC and one in main, they have lots to be tracking and watching. Having different versions within a single release channel would complicate things even further. I doubt that happened.

Do you have any evidence for your insinuation that the Lab is lying?

That you are staggered is revealing but not surprising... I mispoke saying Le Tigre. Oskar edited and updated his OP sometime Thursday, I think. Magnum has PF and Le Tigre got Advanced Creative Tools (ACT).

Deploys for the week of 2012-07-16 - Second Life RC Magnum This channel will again have the Pathfinding project. Second Life RC LeTigre This is the Creator Tools project with the LSL calls enabled.

 The Magnum channel will be running PF for the second week now.

We are told that Le Tigre was planned to run PF. But a last minute change, which post roll showed up in Delpoys, put the Advanced Creative Tools (ACT) on the Le Tigre channel. I'm unclear on how grangular the Lindens ability to enable/disable LSL functions and other features are. But, the main channel and Le Tigre's ACT can be reconfigured without rerolls. If I remember correctly, the main and Le Tigre channels have the same version but only in Le Tigre are the tools enabled and ONLY in some Le Tigre regions.

 

[WolfBaginski Bearsfoot]

I wouldn't go quite as far as you, but this looks to be getting into the sort of confused mess that ruins any attempts to test things, and annoys paying customers. I've already commented on the problems of testing moves between Havok-7 regions with the apparently random distribution across the Grid. Right now, we have Vehicle problems with Havok-7 in general, and it has taken a week before Nalates got the news. If the Lindens are supposed to have the RC channels to test code, they're not doing so good a job.

It's all to do with how the physics engine represents the ground surface, and that affects ground vehicles because it changes how collisions are calculated.

If they can switch on Pathfinding without a restart, and all of Le Tigre is running the Havok-7 engine, it might help sort this side of things out. But if there is a Yellow Jersey for keeping customers informed, it's not being worn by a member of Team Linden.

[Darien Caldwell]

pathfinding was not rolled to le tigre.

 

server notes on the wiki for this week have always stated we were getting creator tools on le tigre.

 

the only time pathfinding has been mentioned in relation to le tigre, was several weeks ago but that roll was canceled that week.

I should add I know this because my region is le tigre, I watched the releases religiously.

[Ayesha Askham]

@Darien

If you watched it, I have to assume that you saw what I did, in that LeTigre WAS scheduled to get PF in the original Release post, though it was subsequently changed to what took place. It was in error. The correction was made while I was asleep.  You ought to know by now that MY sim is also on LeTigre so I am also keenly aware of Release Posts.

@Nalates:

Please don't start arguing and being personal here, it really isn't a good plan.  My tagline was created 4 years ago when I was still fairly new to SL.  I NEVER suggested that Linden Lab, or any of their staff lied.  I simply suggested that they had "Lost the Plot", ie had got mixed up.

Nalates Urriah wrote: "PF is on Le Tigre now. But, not all of Le Tigre has PF ENABLED." So I read what you wrote.

We are ALL confused at the moment.  I have spoken to several folk inworld who put the situation a good deal more robustly than that, but I shrink from repeating their words here.

[Darien Caldwell]

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Ayesha Askham wrote:

@Darien

If you watched it, I have to assume that you saw what I did, in that LeTigre WAS scheduled to get PF in the original Release post, though it was subsequently changed to what took place. It was in error. The correction was made while I was asleep.  You ought to know by now that MY sim is also on LeTigre so I am also keenly aware of Release Posts.

 

---

 

It's certainly possible. But if so, then it was changed befeore I looked, as I never saw that. The only tiime I've seen Pathfinding mentioned in reference to LeTigre is here:

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Second-Life-Server/Deploys-for-the-week-of-2012-06-25/td-p/1579335

You can see the notice there in Red, where they changed their mind about putting Pathfinding on LeTigre and put AvTextures instead.

 I'm honestly puzzled why this is a Federal case. LL ninja edits all the time, anyone here more than a year should know that. Whatever it says *now* is what matters.  (at least from LL's perspective) *smirk*

[Ayesha Askham]

@Darien

Looks as though it slipped in (the change) while you weren't looking!:cattongue:

To be fair if you are as grizzled SL-wise as some it isn't that important, but it DOES indicate the utter confusion at Linden Lab.

The Pathfinding issue is of most concern to SL sailors, of which there are a good many and they contribute a lot to Linden Lab in tier and commerce.  Mesh boats such as Motor Loon's new Loonetta are completely foobarred by Pathfinding on Magnum.  The boats just hang on sim entry and there is nothing you can do to unstick the boat short of deleting that copy.  I must emphasise that it is ALL Mesh boats, not just Loon's.:catfrustrated:

Now add the uncertainty about LeTigre and you can see the issue I'm sure!  It is possible to plot a course around Blake that avoids Magnum, but avoiding Bluesteel (animation bug) and LeTigre as well is nigh on impossible.

And as far as Ninja edits are concerned, with folk having all manner of timezones it is just plain dishonest of LL do do such things.

[JoyofRLC Acker]

As has been mentioned elsewhere the issue is why they use the chequerboard approach to distributing the different channels.   Ths appriach guarantees that Blake Sea for example will be severely hampred for the maximum amount of time.

The solution is to stay in estates like Sailors Cove which is on main channel sims only and also is, afik, eschewing Pathfinder.   Ive been sailing my mesh Ktaba Teleri SX all around theere with no problems.

 

[Marianne McCann]

Okay, so let me make sure I have this right:

1. From looking "in the wild," the RC PF has likely been sunset, replaced with RC Magnum. Makes sense.

2. RC Magnum *at this time* is the only Server running the Pathfinding code and, by extention, the version of Havok that causes the mismatch affecting mesh vehicles.

3. It will be approximately approximately 3-4 more weeks until this shift is complete, assuming no additional issues crop up.

Sounds about right?

[Ina Fairport]

My English is not good enough to understand all the technology of servers but I know one thing....I bought a Loonetta and I can't use it the way I want it....sailing from my home location is a hazardous adventure.

A fiend of mine bought waterland. Two sims away from Blake Sea. She always wanted that. She build a nice houseboat and a dock for her Trudeau One. And now she finds out that she lives on a blue steel server...she can't sail from her home location.
As soon as she leaves the sim she gets unseated or even kicked out of the boat...

This issues should be TOP priority for LL..its a shame that this has to take 4 weeks !!!!:womanmad: 

[Marianne McCann]

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Ina Fairport wrote:

This issues should be TOP priority for LL..its a shame that this has to take 4 weeks !!!!:womanmad: 

---

For what its worth -- and at the risk of being labeld an apologist -- I think it's clear that it *is* a top priority for the Lab. While we could argue the need for Pathfinding in the first place, I suppose, that they are taking sme time with the rollout and making sure things are in working order before deplying it to the whole grid is... good. Better than deplying it all over the grid, only to discover that it somehow broke unnumerable items of content across tends of thousands of regions.

Ya, it's a bummer for you and your friend. It is for me, too, as my lovely mesh planes are collecitng in inventory, as all but one short route I normally fly are impassable due to this. I'm hoping all the caution is unwarranted, and everything will go perfectly smooth from here on out. I'm antsy.

But I'd rather everything was working as expected after a slightly longer wait (and how long is four weeks in the grand scheme of things? ), then have some code rushed out that causes far more pain due to inadequate testing.

[WolfBaginski Bearsfoot]

There are maps becoming available of where the Magnum RC regions are.

I count 40 regions labelled "Blake Sea", and 16 of them are on the Magnum RC. That's 40%, compared to the 10% claimed for the whole grid.

There might be a bias in the mapping, but the map I saw of Nautilus and the Blake Sea showed very few Magnum regions on land, and I only recognised one place which was Magnum-safe and had a racing course for sailors.

Two "private" blocks of the United Sailing Sims are cut off by single Magnum regions. Another Magnum region blocks the ANWR route, and bother north coast and south coast routes to Bay City are blocked.

The Lindens have really messed things up for the sailing and aviation communities. 

[WolfBaginski Bearsfoot]

I've commented elsewhere about the distribution of the Magnum RC regions, but it seems to be 16 of the 40 regions with the label "Blake Sea".

That's 40% of one of the main areas for sailing and aviation in Second Life.

I now seriously doubt that the distribution of the different RC channels across the Grid is adequate for testing purposes. While 40% of the Blake Sea is affected by Havok and Pathfinding, how can useful reports be obtained from the other RC channels?

[Marianne McCann]

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WolfBaginski Bearsfoot wrote:

There are maps becoming available of where the Magnum RC regions are.

---

I did one of them, in fact. Was quick and dirty, and mostly for my amusement/edification, but here's a copy of it:

 

I only bothered with waterways, and stopped at Abotts. Again, mostly the areas I tend to fly/sail. 

What struck me was that Abbotts is pretty much shuttered when it come to flights west. Ditto with the passage from the Northern continent down to the Suburbs and Bay City. Far more Magnums than anything in that area, uften intersperced with main channel (yellow). Blue Steel (with the sit bug) comes in second.

I think Ill keep my planes in the Inventory Hangar for a bit longer. :-)

[WolfBaginski Bearsfoot]

Yes, that was one of the maps I saw.

68 regions classified.

21 in the Magnum RC channel, 6 in LeTigre, and 8 in BlueSteel.

Never mind, for the moment, the problems with BlueSteel and LeTigre, we have the excess of Magnum RC regions, three times as many as we would expect, and the way in which they can disrupt sailing.

I cannot se anything in that which would refute the thesis that the Lindens are out to hurt SL sailing. 

[Marianne McCann]

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WolfBaginski Bearsfoot wrote:

I cannot se anything in that which would refute the thesis that the Lindens are out to hurt SL sailing. 

---

While I certain;y don't disagree that it *is* hurting SL sailing (and railroading, and flying, and autosports, and anything tht crosses a region more than once), I don't think that Oskar sits around in his office thinking, "how can I rid SL of the scourge that is SL sailing?" 

I *suspect* that if there is planning involved about what server types are where, they end up so heavily invested in waterways because LL "owns" them completey, versus private land "owners" who may yell and scream (and abandon their land). 

Are they deliverately out to harm sailing? Doubt it. Are they harming sailing? Yes.

[Honey Puddles]

The bit that gets me, is why aren't the Lindens blogging about this?

Something this "Inconsistent-Experience" generating going out to the grid, without a word from the Lindens like "hey, watch out, we're trying to get this out as fast as we can to all the sims, but we need a bit more testing, please bear with us, and sorry about the vehicle problems".

[Marianne McCann]

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Winter Ventura wrote:

The bit that gets me, is why aren't the Lindens blogging.

---

Fixed it for you.

[WolfBaginski Bearsfoot]

The point about land owners would explain a higher percentage of RC Channel regions in general.

The number of Magnum RC regions in these areas looks suspiciously high. It would need a statistician to check, but it doesn't look like random chance to me. And that suggests that there was deliberate choice, putting out a large number of Magnum RC regions in these areas used for sailing, and then using them for a known-to-be-disruptive test.

And we had to find this out the hard way.

It all makes it very easy to think ill of the Lindens.

 

[Jo Yardley]

Any news/gossip/rumours about Pathfinding and when we can expect it?

[badguy Boozehound]

hell llvolume detect is now unstable and why are we allowed to stop other ppl objects again that are phiysical but right clicking them