At least this Christian wants peace and friendship

[bejjinks]

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

So if God will overcome sin for us, then how can a person in an intimate relationship with Him sin? If the relationship with ones creator was so great that we could not sin, then we could not pull away.

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That is true. The problem is that many who claim to be Christian do not have that relationship with God. They have intellectual knowledge of God so they go out preaching and making a spectacle of how Christian they are and then they fall into sin because they were never really close to God in the first place.

[Charolotte Caxton]

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bejjinks wrote:

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

So if God will overcome sin for us, then how can a person in an intimate relationship with Him sin? If the relationship with ones creator was so great that we could not sin, then we could not pull away.

---

That is true. The problem is that many who claim to be Christian do not have that relationship with God. They have intellectual knowledge of God so they go out preaching and making a spectacle of how Christian they are and then they fall into sin because they were never really close to God in the first place.

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I can believe that.

[bejjinks]

Let's break it down

p=mortals condemn mortals who commit crimes against mortals.

q=an all powerful Creator who condemns mortals for committing crimes against mortals does not sound godlike.

conclusion=God cannot exist

Do you see the gaps in this reasoning?

First you have circular logic. You define God as someone who cannot condemn mortals for crimes committed against mortals.

Second you have essentially stated that because God does not condemn mortals, God cannot exist. That's like saying because cows don't eat meat, cows cannot exist.

[Charolotte Caxton]

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bejjinks wrote:

Let's break it down

p=mortals condemn mortals who commit crimes against mortals.

q=an all powerful Creator who condemns mortals for committing crimes against mortals does not sound godlike.

conclusion=God cannot exist

Do you see the gaps in this reasoning?

First you have circular logic. You define God as someone who cannot condemn mortals for crimes committed against mortals.

Second you have essentially stated that because God does not condemn mortals, God cannot exist. That's like saying because cows don't eat meat, cows cannot exist.

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Oh .. no. That's not what I meant to say. I dont think that is what I said, but I will say it again and see if it makes more better sense

People committing crimes against people get punished by people. Ok. Understandable, believable.

God punishing people for committing crimes against him or other people for all of eternity when he is the one who made them sinners in the first place knowing full well that they would do these things, not ok. Not cool, unbelievable, does not mesh with the idea of a loving God.

Therefore if God = Love but burns peoples souls for doing the very thing he created them to do, then God does not exist.

[Charolotte Caxton]

...or, if God does exist, then he is evil and must be overthrown.

Which might explain why many religions do such evil things in the name of God, but that I suppose is a different topic.

[bejjinks]

But God did not create people to sin. God did not cause people to sin. God did not make them sinners.

[bejjinks]

I hate what many people do in the name of God and I think God does too. That's why the third commandment is Thou Shalt Not Take The Lord's Name In Vain. Many people misunderstand that commandment to mean Don't Swear but the real meaning of that commandment is quit doing things in the name of God without finding out if it's what God really wants in the first place.

[Charolotte Caxton]

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bejjinks wrote:

But God did not create people to sin. God did not cause people to sin. God did not make them sinners.

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If God created people knowing they would sin, he created people to sin.

If Jesus Christ was with God since the Beginning and the plan of salvation already in place before man was made, then God did indeed create man to sin.

God created sinners. If there was a god.

[Charolotte Caxton]

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bejjinks wrote:

I hate what many people do in the name of God and I think God does too. That's why the third commandment is Thou Shalt Not Take The Lord's Name In Vain. Many people misunderstand that commandment to mean Don't Swear but the real meaning of that commandment is quit doing things in the name of God without finding out if it's what God really wants in the first place.

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If there were a God and that God were all powerful and He hated what men do in His name, He would not allow them to do so. 

If He allows them to do so and is able to stop them but does not, then He is an accomplice to their crimes.

[Griffin Ceawlin]

The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision. - Lynn Lavner

[bejjinks]

We are now at an impasse. You aren't bringing anything new to the discussion. You are just repeating the same circular reasoning that I disagree with. Let's just agree to disagree and let it go.

[bejjinks]

Not sure what your point is but I do agree with the John Stuart Mill quote. The Lynn Lavner quote is a little vague.

[Charolotte Caxton]

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bejjinks wrote:

We are now at an impasse. You aren't bringing anything new to the discussion. You are just repeating the same circular reasoning that I disagree with. Let's just agree to disagree and let it go.

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That, my dear friend, is a perfect Christian response.

[Griffin Ceawlin]

Oh, well. Never mind, then. I'm going to hell, anyway.

[bejjinks]

To all of you. I'm trying to be friendly here. Why are you making this into an argument. Can't we just lighten up here?

[Griffin Ceawlin]

According to your book, I'm an unrepentant sinner who is going to hell.

I don't find that a particularly "friendly" conversation starter.

[bejjinks]

According to what I wrote, we are all going to Hell without Jesus. I'm in the same boat you are in.

[Griffin Ceawlin]

Oh. Well, save yourself.

Me? I'm "given over to a reprobate mind."

Odds are, at least, that you don't have people calling for you to be "put to death" for your own "sins."

[Ceka Cianci]

where does it say anyone is going to hell rather than just taken out of the book of life to never exist anymore..

burning in hell would still be existing..

also you can still sin after you are saved..

there is no way a person could not..you are not judged until you are removed of the flesh and purified..until then sin wil still hapen..it's that your eyes have been opened to who saved you from past present and future sin..

as far as god stopping both toddlers from going in the street..that wouldn't happen..it would be a lesson in life for the parent or parents if they let it happen..a very costly lesson..

not that i'm christian..but i know the bible very well..living in the bible belt..i learned to have a very good understanding of it rather than being preached at with insulting intent..

there are good christian like in anything where people are involved..

and there are some bad ones as well..

i think it's a good book for reading and it does calm me..but people use it for their own manipulation on others way too much..

a big thing people should take away from that book is that nobody should be judging anybody until they have walked a few miles in their shoes..

 

 

[Charolotte Caxton]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

where does it say anyone is going to hell rather than just taken out of the book of life to never exist anymore..

 

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Quite a few places actually:

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' Matthew 25:41

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Matthew 25:46

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. Matthew 5:22

I could go on, but you get the point.

[Ceka Cianci]

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

where does it say anyone is going to hell rather than just taken out of the book of life to never exist anymore..

 

---

Quite a few places actually:

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire

prepared for the devil and his angels

.' Matthew 25:41

And these will go away into eternal punishment,

but the righteous into eternal life

. Matthew 25:46

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur,

which is the second death.

Revelation 21:8

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. Matthew 5:22

I could go on, but you get the point.

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ok but where does it say they will suffer forever other than to not exist..

being taken out of the book of life to not exist is to be punished forever by nonexistance..not burn forever..it's a death..not a life..

those going to eternity are the ones that live forever..

those taken out of the book of life are thrown into an eternal lake of fire..it doesn't mean they have eternal life as well..they die the second death..

[Charolotte Caxton]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

---

Charolotte Caxton wrote:

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

where does it say anyone is going to hell rather than just taken out of the book of life to never exist anymore..

 

---

Quite a few places actually:

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire

prepared for the devil and his angels

.' Matthew 25:41

And these will go away into eternal punishment,

but the righteous into eternal life

. Matthew 25:46

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur,

which is the second death.

Revelation 21:8

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. Matthew 5:22

I could go on, but you get the point.

---

ok but where does it say they will suffer forever other than to not exist..

being taken out of the book of life to not exist is to be punished forever by nonexistance..not burn forever..it's a death..not a life..

those going to eternity are the ones that live forever..

those taken out of the book of life are thrown into an eternal lake of fire..it doesn't mean they have eternal life as well..they die the second death..

---

Ah, I see. That sounds better. The saved will live forever with God but the wicked will cease to exist. Seems like an all powerful God could have saved a lot of suffering by not making the wicked in the first place.

[Charolotte Caxton]

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

---

Charolotte Caxton wrote:

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

where does it say anyone is going to hell rather than just taken out of the book of life to never exist anymore..

 

---

Quite a few places actually:

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire

prepared for the devil and his angels

.' Matthew 25:41

And these will go away into eternal punishment,

but the righteous into eternal life

. Matthew 25:46

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur,

which is the second death.

Revelation 21:8

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. Matthew 5:22

I could go on, but you get the point.

---

ok but where does it say they will suffer forever other than to not exist..

being taken out of the book of life to not exist is to be punished forever by nonexistance..not burn forever..it's a death..not a life..

those going to eternity are the ones that live forever..

those taken out of the book of life are thrown into an eternal lake of fire..it doesn't mean they have eternal life as well..they die the second death..

---

Ah, I see. That sounds better. The saved will live forever with God but the wicked will cease to exist. Seems like an all powerful God could have saved a lot of suffering by not making the wicked in the first place.

---

Oh, and I just saw the first part of Matthew 25:46 again:  And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. 

[Ceka Cianci]

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

---

Charolotte Caxton wrote:

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

where does it say anyone is going to hell rather than just taken out of the book of life to never exist anymore..

 

---

Quite a few places actually:

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire

prepared for the devil and his angels

.' Matthew 25:41

And these will go away into eternal punishment,

but the righteous into eternal life

. Matthew 25:46

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur,

which is the second death.

Revelation 21:8

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. Matthew 5:22

I could go on, but you get the point.

---

ok but where does it say they will suffer forever other than to not exist..

being taken out of the book of life to not exist is to be punished forever by nonexistance..not burn forever..it's a death..not a life..

those going to eternity are the ones that live forever..

those taken out of the book of life are thrown into an eternal lake of fire..it doesn't mean they have eternal life as well..they die the second death..

---

Ah, I see. That sounds better. The saved will live forever with God but the wicked will cease to exist. Seems like an all powerful God could have saved a lot of suffering by not making the wicked in the first place.

---

the funny thing is..there was a religion very similar 5,000 years ago with the very same story backing it with the virgin birth and a son rising again..isis the mother and osiris the one that rose again if i remember right..it's been a little while since i read all that stuff..

remember..this book was written by men and started 400 years after christ had died..

it has 613 commandments not just 10.. which a lot of christians don't even know about.. hehehehe

it's been changed more times that can be counted..

just look at how the grapevine works in second life when someone starts those group  spams stories about someone .by the time it's came full circle..it's a whole different story lol

but to answer the question..humans are not born wicked..they are made wicked by other human interaction and events in their life..

i just think it's a neat book with some good stories and a lot on golden rule stuff going on..

i think out of them all joseph was one of the coolest ones..that was a good story..hehehe

 

 

 

 

 

[Charolotte Caxton]

Which Joseph?

The one where his brothers sold him into slavery and then were ruled by him and that explains the 12 tribes of Israel?

Or the 'You are not the father!' of baby Jesus?