Will LL support blacklist system on the Marketplace stores?

[HisaDrug]

I know I don't know whole lot about merchandising on the marketplace as a growing creator. And recently, I've caught a guy who somehow managed to duplicate the no Perm items of mine n used them n proudly displayed as his profile pictures. I was so shocked n I know this is ridiculous, n I even made a bold gesture to stop him from copying my products including others (his posts indicate of constant begging of other creators to unban him from their stores again. He might be very young). 

So my concern is that... is this wots gonna happen in the means of creation in SL? Say virtual products arent considered as invention of ideas as oppose to the real world art work that actually pays the price of hardwork? 

I know alot of good creators who take care of their imaginations into tangible virtual goods to share the joy with the fellow viewers n I was very happy about SL n how it's giving me an opportunity to share it with ppl. But I guess (as I discussed this wit my creator mates) there's no way we can stop immature viewers to respect other ppls' work cos in the end, they dont really care for one's achievement within creation in virtual world. 

n wots gonna happen if one day some guy duplicates the entire shop of yers n claim the ownership of the line? idk if it'll ever gonna happen since it requires such handywork but just witnessing a snippet of the theft my concern goes over the surface. 

it'll be very nice if we could have the blacklist directly on the Marketplace, so we could single out some of the residents who intend to leech off other ppls' possible freebies to their likings. Wot do ya think of it guys?

So I'd like to hear other experienced creators' opinions about their experience on those kinda things...n I'd like to listen to their advise on preventing those goobers from stealing stuff to my surprise. Thank you guys.

 

 

 

[Lindal Kidd]

There is no technological way to absolutely defend against copying...including "no perm" items, and No Mod items with resizing scripts.  The fact that the server must send data about the object to your computer in order for you to see the item means that, with the proper software, the data defining the item can be copied.

(As an aside, I will add that, as a consumer, I never buy "no perm" items.  The functionality is too limited, and there are plenty of merchants who will sell me either no copy items, or no transfer items.)

What you can do is this:

1.  Ban avatars who are known copybotters from your land and stores.

2.  Abuse Report each instance of copybotting.

3.  File a DMCA "takedown notice" against copybotters.  Here is the procedure for that.  http://secondlife.com/corporate/dmca.php

[Rolig Loon]

Lindal is quite right.  We have AR and DMCA procedures for dealing with people like that. This is not the place to discuss the question, in any case.  The Answers forum is a resident-to-resident service for answering questions about how SL works (or why it doesn't).  Not only that, but the software in Answers is rotten for carrying on a discussion.  If you really want to get some comments going, post your question in the General Discussion forum.

[Ry0ta Exonar]

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HisaDrug wrote:

n wots gonna happen if one day some guy duplicates the entire shop of yers n claim the ownership of the line? idk if it'll ever gonna happen since it requires such handywork but just witnessing a snippet of the theft my concern goes over the surface. 

---

That could happen. If the copier registers (false) copyright of those duplicates on their part,  files a (false) legal action against the original creator in a court and files a (false) DMCA takedown notification with LL, LL would have to remove the original creator's contents and in that case even if the original creator files a counter DMCA notice against the copier, his/her contents might not be restored until the dispute is settled. Actually a similar thing is happening right now. I'm wondering what will happen if the defendant can't afford the court fee...

[Dilbert Dilweg]

Thats playing some streight up dirty pool.

[GothGirl Demonia]

Here is a few things I have seen and know about.

1. If someone is displaying the same picture as your profile picture then chances are they are UUID snatching, this is the act of opening another persons profile picture ID which is loaded into every viewer the same as any texture and into every users cache when they view your profile, very easy to apply the pciture of anyones to your account.

2. There is no way to stop CopyBot, or Immature Viewers, Systems like CDS, Red Zone, are both lies they can't really protect you, and on top of this they violate privacy, and breach the LL TOS under harssment/defaming avatars. There might be other systems out there now too I don't know them all.

See if chatlog disclosure here was not illegal, I would disclose the logs I had with the creator of red zone where he admit to manually banning my avatar from hundreds of sims running the system because a botter attacked others using my name, and because I know too much about the Bots and griefers I am guilty obviously, he knew nothing, but I am glad his system is gone for this grief he caused.

3. Never Give away anything full perms, as it can be spoofed to create content to look like you made it.

Generally speaking even without a illegal viewer it is not illegal for me to example take a full perm prim you gave me full permissions over and create another 3 cubes with it twitst them around a bit its not breaking the TOS to do it, what is of course is what these illegal botters do with them make griefer attacks etc.

4. I have been accused of being a person who Copys people stuff over 3 years, banned from a couple of stores, and no offense to the creator community because I know quite a few merchants and I respect, and support them. But reguardless there is a time when standing up to griefers who illegally harm other creators to me it seems why do I even bother reporting, or giving a damn.  I ask myself this sometimes, because at the same time some creators have chosen to kick me out of their store and accuse me of griefing so to speak, the most recent a creator I knew since 2009, with this Griefing person from this RP sim which I believe Stole his items then tried to blame me for it. Even if this person were not guilty of this and they were actually spoofed, they have griefed me in so many other ways its hard to believe they are not a griefing Bot. So its things like this that make me wonder if its worth trying to protect content anymore. OF Course I know a lot of people, and I will not stand to see people wearing or giving stolen crap out in any group I am part of or such, its happend before a few times total, I left some groups others I got kicked from fro being against this stuff, and trying to do something about it, and well sometimes there is nothing that can be done except by LL if there are no owners in the group.

The problem however is people see my name often from things like Blogging, Debates, Google, Being Banned from CDS, Red Zone, or Rumors, and they believe that I would want to harm them, and if that was the case, I know more than enough to tell when I teleport into a sim I am banned, and if I actually truly wanted to harm a creator myself on this grid, I would not leave a trace back to me, let alone would the ban stop me I would just use an alt like all these griefers do, my point being, I am not in SL to grief others, but I will defend the rumors made by these griefers, and deal with the people helping them with things such as Abuse Reports, Debates, and have plenty of other tricks when I become a raging kitty which only happens when someone makes me really angry. * My point being, I don't make much content on this grid, but I have seen what these griefers do not only in Second Life, but other games I play, so I know how it feels to be griefed. I am not for the griefing of random people the reason I say it this way, is because sometimes one person slaps another persons face, and that person slaps back, aka this kitty for example someone slaps me and they don't stop I turn into a raging kitty they get my paw across their face.* I don't like having to slap people with my kitty claws but its a kitty's nature lol.

5. Banning CopyBotters./ Marketplace blacklist.

I really don't care if the Real Botters who wish to do you harm get banned, but using systems like CDS, or Red Zone, are just going to draw more attention to you as a merchant. Even if you blacklist a person from buying your products on the market palce they would get the notice, and the solution is simple. Make an alternate account, buy the product, and copy it illegally. In fact you can do this in world too if you got detected or banned from CDS, or Red Zone for that matter, or anything similar, just turn off media, make an alt, go buy the product and rip it.

These systems will not protect unless the user has Media, JavaScript, Cookies, or Voice on or anything like this, if a user disables them all and no exploits are being used, it would have to assume that anyone who has these methods off is a Botter and kick/ban them.

In fact a botter could just find a friend with the same product, or hang around a welcome area to copy your work still.

6. DMCA.

DMCA is your best friend, and I would use it, of course it wont help you if the botter has your .XML file saved on their comptuer they can create thousands of more accounts and import it back no matter hardware banned or not from Second Life, however those who have no knowledge and thnik its funny to play the teenage punk ripping off your store it will work against, and not only that, but you can file a DMCA on every new import they make and make it hell for them if you wish, I am all for it.

7. What is important however to every creator is if a nwe permissions exploit is ever found, it should be reported directly to Linden Lab & Fast because these can harm the designers of this grid worse than a CopyBot can.

8. While most creators of content, or developers see the CopyBot, or Immature Viewer as being nothing but illegal, they have their use, not saying a person has to agree or disagree with me, but some of these rogue viewers, or should I say privately made viewers have good functions better than the ones released legally.

I think of the CopyBot now as nothing more than a TOOL, just like Knives which are used to cut foods in a kitchen can be used in malicious ways to harm another person in Real Life  doesn't make it illegal to own a knife for that matter. My point being as long as Second Life is open sourced there will aways be viewers which are not on the approved list, or that can likely steal content from other creators.

Some people argue that CopyBot is not Stealing, in a matter of speaking thinking about SOPA/PIPA  it isn't stealing, its just making a copy of it. This happens both in Second Life, and Real World, Software, Movies & Games. However I understand how hard this hurts the community of Second Life to have their work copied, or in other words stolen as many call it including myself. I absolutely hate how people can just go and rip off entire stores and leave it in the sand box for that matter of something I saw no more than a month ago. If the person really couldn't afford something, why the hell could they not just ask for it.  I know some stores in Second Life not sure about now, but before offered free RP weapons to people if they were new and couldn't buy them, I know creators who give away free skins, and free hair to newbies. There really isn't a need to steal or copy and destroy someone elses life.

Creators waste hours of their Real Life they could be using to play another game, or do Extra work for cash in RL, but instead they enjoy creating content in SL, and people rip the off, even use sleeper ALTS to copy an entire store and fool new people setting it up and stealing money cashing it out before LL Bans them, etc.

Funny thing I have to say is that if you can't afford $4.08 for 1000 L$ then you really shouldn't be playing Second Life for that matter. The only except I see is if you are a Teen or from another country, or have a really bad Real Life and can't afford to spend much in SL like some of my friends. Then I can understand not being able to deposit a lot of RL money.

But there are other ways to ask nicely for things if you really need help, I am sure that some creator out there is willing to give you a hand, rather than illegally using a CopyBot, and stealing/leaking content.

I used to once be one of these newbs who accepted Stolen Freebies when I first joined SL I knew nothing about any of it but I found out about it all later, deleted it all, I don't want to be seen wearing stoeln content, or anything, I don't want people I know even wearing it around me, it makes me look bad and that is really how I am about it.

[Ry0ta Exonar]

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HisaDrug wrote:

it'll be very nice if we could have the blacklist directly on the Marketplace, so we could single out some of the residents who intend to leech off other ppls' possible freebies to their likings. Wot do ya think of it guys?

 

---

Here is a JIRA for requesting ban list: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-3651

 

[Ziggy21 Slade]

 

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Ry0ta Exonar wrote:

That could happen. If the copier registers (false) copyright of those duplicates on their part,  files a (false) legal action against the original creator in a court and files a (false) DMCA takedown notification with LL, LL would have to remove the original creator's contents and in that case even if the original creator files a counter DMCA notice against the copier, his/her contents might not be restored until the dispute is settled. Actually a similar thing is happening right now. I'm wondering what will happen if the defendant can't afford the court fee...

---

I know this is just theorising but lets not start a panic.

In this situation the genuine creator would simply file a counter claim and his stuff would be returned to sale, it would then be up to the complainant to prove in court he was the owner of the copyrighted materials, since he would have to meet the cost of doing this himself and would almost certainly lose, its extremely unlikely this situation will ever occur, particularly in SL where generally speaking the sums of money involved are quite low. The only cost to the genuine creator would be the time it takes to complete and send the counter claim, unless he decided to sue the complainant for damages caused by the spurious claim which is allowed for under the Act

[Ry0ta Exonar]

I do wish it was just theorising.

"On receiving a valid counter-notification, we generally restore the content in question, unless we receive notice from the notification provider that a legal action has been filed seeking a court order to restrain the alleged infringer from engaging in the infringing activity." https://secondlife.com/corporate/dmca.php

If you google sl curio, you'll see what I'm talking about.

[GothGirl Demonia]

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Ry0ta Exonar wrote:

I do wish it was just theorising.

"On receiving a valid counter-notification, we generally restore the content in question,

unless we receive notice from the notification provider that a legal action has been filed seeking a court order to restrain the alleged infringer from engaging in the infringing activity

."

https://secondlife.com/corporate/dmca.php

If you google sl curio, you'll see what I'm talking about.

---

Yes I know exactly what you are talking about, this exact same thing happend to one of my friends who creates content, and they didn't have the money to SUE even though they filed a DMCA, the other person Counter Filed, so the only way it gets removed then is if it goes to court through a court order, and even then it could end up in a heated legal battle.

Speaking of Curio, I have seen his store ripped off many times in SL, even talked to him once I think don't remember exactly. I am still a kitty with a pancake on its head wondering what is going on not exactly sure  who has won what yet with the legal mess, but my guess is someone setup a store selling skins that were edited in photoshop, or a mistake who knows. But so help me if a botter really did get taken to court, and they are actualy guilty then hopefully justice will get served.

The only time i ever had to file a Counter-DMCA was on YouTube once someone decided to file a claim on something I had posted claiming copyright and it got countered I just removed it after I counter filed for Drama's sake however it would have probabily had to have gone to court too. * To me however that was more like a Shut Up notice from the user in SL who didn't want the cat out of the bag, but you know the cats out now :3.*

[Ziggy21 Slade]

I did google sl curio, this is a dispute between 2 established creators and since it is still in dispute it cannot be presented as an example of a successful spurious claim, this has yet to be determined, if the complainant fails they may well be liable for the defendants loss of earnings, damage to reputation and costs, it's extremely risky even if we knew it to be completely legitimate. A similar dispute occurred a couple of years ago between Ozimals and Ameretto and in that case the complainant lost. With larger more profitable businesses we can expect these things to happen from time to time, they are still very, very rare in SL.

I just can't believe that copybotters who are often children or quite young with extremely limited means and little knowledge of the world are going to start hiring a lawyers and filing false claims of copyright in their local court, , these are people who don't have a few dollars to buy an SL product, I seriously doubt that most of them are even capable of making a valid DMCA claim in the first place.

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Ziggy21 Slade wrote:

 

I just can't believe that copybotters who are often children or quite young with extremely limited means and little knowledge of the world are going to start hiring a lawyers and filing false claims of copyright in their local court, , these are people who don't have a few dollars to buy an SL product, I seriously doubt that most of them are even capable of making a valid DMCA claim in the first place.

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And yet they are - either one side or the other in that actual case is such.

 

[Qie Niangao]

That's a very, very rare case. There are lots of copybot kiddies, and a few who take it further, but most fold at the first hint of a DMCA. That case is fascinating as an exception--and one of those parties has made a very unhappy future for themselves.

Anyway, the OP proposes a blacklist? Really? We've learned nothing from the failures every single time that's ever been tried anywhere, for any purpose?

 

[madman626 Fall]

Bad ideal why because ppl will be making false claims,, we have report and dmca for that and less it your stuff you have no way of knowing if it was rip or not. Blacklisting on the market bad ideal .we all had this talk before mose ppl didt want anything like that in place if I remembering right.

[Ry0ta Exonar]

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Ziggy21 Slade wrote:

I did google sl curio, this is a dispute between 2 established creators and since it is still in dispute it cannot be presented as an example of a successful spurious claim, this has yet to be determined, if the complainant fails they may well be liable for the defendants loss of earnings, damage to reputation and costs, it's extremely risky even if we knew it to be completely legitimate. A similar dispute occurred a couple of years ago between Ozimals and Ameretto and in that case the complainant lost. With larger more profitable businesses we can expect these things to happen from time to time, they are still very, very rare in SL.

---

It's doubtful if one of them is established or not unlike Amaretto - Ozimals case, though. If it's successful or not is irrelevant. What happened here is that a well-established individual is deprived of the right to sell her items over one month now (both Amaretto and Ozimals could keep on selling) for an alleged complaint filed against her and to clear her name she has to spend huge sum of money. So what happens if she can't come up with the money? When LL will restore her products? I think it's a extremely rare case but that could happen on anyone.

[HisaDrug]

I appreciate all your valuable attention to my topic. 

Before I got into creation, I used to laugh off about this issues with my friend who is already a well known creator on the MP. He has been copybotted big time n it affected his courage to go on the creation for the fact that he wouldn't be praise for his work as much due to the botters. He was very upset n it was to my concern. 

I got into the business, I couldn't help but start noticing things such as some very noticeable designs from some well known designer are being sold for ridiculously cheap prices, n they were obviously from the other designers. The buyers as the comments indicated were all happy to get it on discount, n as a beginner creator myself got very upset that LL overlooks obvious copyrights issues unless its seriously reported. I know they're very busy tending other aspect of the program other than watching over the tedious dramas over the MP, but since they advertise the virtual values for the real currency then they can't just give the MP light treatment since it's a growing business worldwide. 

I'm not saying I'd like to overreact for narrow chances for extreme copybotting, but witnessing it for myself has been a huge letdown for the fact that the virtual value would just stay virtual, no more than an illusional wealth that can be stolen at one's evil will becos in the end, it is a virtual item, n it's no big deal. 

My opinions, the MP is purely based on aesthetics, visuals, n on top of it all, one's bright ideas to illuminate the viewers' senses to elaborate their virtual experiences. I'm very happy to be the provider in a very small part of the industry, but then the risk, almost threat of copybot seems to be the inevitable once one's business grows larger to have larger audience, n no one would want to pay the full fare but look for a way to cheap off others' scammed goods. 

Blacklist is requested by me also, it's becos there must be stronger enforcement policies to protect creators as much as stronger copybotting programs are being created to attack the creators. If not, i can't lie but admit creating here feels like I'm living in a terminal illness that I'm waiting for my longevity would cut me off anytime it wants me to go. 

I just wish that LL would release some staff to watch over the MP to make such big deals out of immature copycats n prove the creators n also buyers that they actually value the virtual goods as they promote to attract more ppl. 

 

[Ry0ta Exonar]

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HisaDrug wrote:

I got into the business, I couldn't help but start noticing things such as some very noticeable designs from some well known designer are being sold for ridiculously cheap prices, n they were obviously from the other designers. The buyers as the comments indicated were all happy to get it on discount,  

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Yeah so nobody can beat what the thieves have to offer cuz they sell quality items for cheap prices or for free. That discourages also legit novice creators. But I suspect most of those reviews were made by their alts or something to get better position in search and actually I know all the reviews on some thieves' stores are made by their alts.

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HisaDrug wrote:

no one would want to pay the full fare but look for a way to cheap off others' scammed goods. 

---

Most people don't care where things come from as long as they look good.

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HisaDrug wrote:

Blacklist is requested by me also, it's becos there must be stronger enforcement policies to protect creators as much as stronger copybotting programs are being created to attack the creators. If not, i can't lie but admit creating here feels like I'm living in a terminal illness that I'm waiting for my longevity would cut me off anytime it wants me to go. 

---

Frankly speaking, blacklist wouldn't make much difference because they can make as many alts as they like, can change IP address, can use different computers and what not, but why may we not ban thieves, so I voted for that JIRA.

 

 

 

[Masami Kuramoto]

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Ry0ta Exonar wrote:

What happened here is that a well-established individual is deprived of the right to sell her items over one month now (both Amaretto and Ozimals could keep on selling) for an alleged complaint filed against her and to clear her name she has to spend huge sum of money.

---

C shot herself in the foot when she filed a takedown notice against H and then chickened out after H filed a counter-notice. Someone should have told C that failure to act on a counter-notice is even worse than failure to act on a takedown, because the party filing the counter-notice has much more skin in the game. Since the law makes it so easy to fight a frivolous counter-notice, there is basically no excuse for not doing so.

Complaining about H at this point is a bit like complaining about getting nuked after attacking Pearl Harbor. It looks like C didn't believe her own claims and merely abused the DMCA notification process to get rid of a competitor. Apparently this is how LL sees it, and there is a chance that a court will see it this way too.

[Perrie Juran]

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:

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Ry0ta Exonar wrote:

What happened here is that a well-established individual is deprived of the right to sell her items over one month now (both Amaretto and Ozimals could keep on selling) for an alleged complaint filed against her and to clear her name she has to spend huge sum of money.

---

C shot herself in the foot when she filed a takedown notice against H and then chickened out after H filed a counter-notice. Someone should have told C that failure to act on a counter-notice is even worse than failure to act on a takedown, because the party filing the counter-notice has much more skin in the game. Since the law makes it so easy to fight a frivolous counter-notice, there is basically no excuse for not doing so.

Complaining about H at this point is a bit like complaining about getting nuked after attacking Pearl Harbor. It looks like C didn't believe her own claims and merely abused the DMCA notification process to get rid of a competitor. Apparently this is how LL sees it, and there is a chance that a court will see it this way too.

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"Since the law makes it so easy to fight a frivolous counter-notice, there is basically no excuse for not doing so."

Especially so since at least as I understand it the law allows the possibility for the winner to recoup their legal costs.  A Judge could not only award the winner damages but their legal expenses too.