Ditch the Facelight

[Rival Destiny]

...scuse me please...I have no dog in this fight, however - what is the difference between a face light and a lantern when it comes to lighting up an area?

I would think that if the issue is adding an unwanted light source, neither would be desireable.

 

[Baloo Uriza]

---

Griffin Ceawlin wrote:

Well, Baloo, aren't

you

negatively impacting all those other people's lighting with your lantern? Or is it just my facelight? Hmmm?

Guess they left the definition of

hypocrisy

out of yours.

---

Your facelight.  People expect a physical object to be a light source.

[Griffin Ceawlin]

Just a case of "Do as I say, not as I do."

[Innula Zenovka]

---

Griffin Ceawlin wrote:

No, instead it refers to my refusal to bend to some people's very narrow view of how I should live my Second Life.

 

Sorry. Here's an unedited quote from Pussycat earlier in the thread. There's no "if" there.

 

Its essentially a -mild- form of griefing.

---

What Pussycat actually said, in context, was:

---

There's some serious debate here over whether or not a person wearing facelights disrupts the lighting for others around them.

- If that is the case, then it is essentially a form of griefing. Mild as most may not be aware they are doing this to others.

---

Notice the qualifications.   Clearly your facelights don't disrupt other people's lighting, so by no stretch of the imagination do her remarks apply to you.  

Equally clearly, some people use facelights that seriously disrupt other people's lighting, to the extent that, in a crowded and dark club, they make it impossible to see the avatars around them because they're so washed out by the excessively bright lights.

 

 

[Baloo Uriza]

Not quite.  People tend to only use things like flashlights and lanterns when it's too dark to see in a scene without breaking character.  Facelights don't have that use case scenario.

[Griffin Ceawlin]

Ah. Well. I don't roleplay, so... Not likely my facelight will stumble into your RP sim.

[Baloo Uriza]

Many people never break character.  There's also the factor that facelights do still cause issues for rendering desired light sources for other people.  So, hey, if you want to defend selfish vanity in the face of all logic and cooperation and tear down people for calling you on it, go right ahead.  It does say a lot about the content of your character, and nothing good.

[Penny Patton]

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Griffin Ceawlin wrote:

No, instead it refers to my refusal to bend to some people's very narrow view of how I should live my Second Life.

 

Sorry. Here's an unedited quote from Pussycat earlier in the thread. There's no "if" there.

 

Its essentially a -mild- form of griefing.

---

 Umm, when you take a single sentence out of a larger statement then it's still an edited quote.

Also, she made more than one post to the thread. Taking one out of context from the others is no better than taking one line out of context from the rest of the post because then you don't see that she is referering to the large, multi-source and overwhelming nose lamps.

 It's pretty obvious that no one in this thread is telling you how you should live your Second Life until such point as you begin to negatively affect their own.

 

 Also, since you brought it up in your reply to Baloo, disabling attached lights stops the light from being rendered, but not how that light affects other lights if you're limited to 6 local lights. So someone running around with a noselamp large enough to break local lighting would still have that affect, just you wouldn't also see the supernova of light around them.

 

---

Rival Destiny wrote:

...scuse me please...I have no dog in this fight, however - what is the difference between a face light and a lantern when it comes to lighting up an area?

I would think that if the issue is adding an unwanted light source, neither would be desireable.

 

---

  There's a few things to consider here. Is the lantern excessively bright? Does it take up an excessive number of local light sources?  If it does, it's no better than the noselamps which prompted this thread.

 On the other hand, let's assume you have a lantern and a nose lamp of equal brightness and only one light source. A lantern provides a visible light source, the nose lamp is a phantom, invisible light source. Aesthetically, the nose lamp appears broken, it's light out of nowhere which is disruptive to the scene.

 In a videogame, if you picked up a lantern and did not illuminate your surroundings, you'd consider it broken. Same with any cartoon, movie, etcetera, if someone had an obviously lit lantern and yet it cast no light, it would look broken or out of place.

 If a videogame came out where half the character's faces were brightly lit at all times, even in darkness, with no visible source no any explanation or consistency to the light, that would be considered lauighably poor graphics.Same if you saw the same in any movie or tv show.

 

 

[Griffin Ceawlin]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

---

Griffin Ceawlin wrote:

No, instead it refers to my refusal to bend to some people's very narrow view of how I should live my Second Life.

 

Sorry. Here's an unedited quote from Pussycat earlier in the thread. There's no "if" there.

 

Its essentially a -mild- form of griefing.

---

What

Pussycat actually said

, in context, was:

---

There's some serious debate here over whether or not a person wearing facelights disrupts the lighting for others around them.

- If that is the case, then it is essentially a form of griefing. Mild as most may not be aware they are doing this to others.

---

Notice the qualifications.   Clearly your facelights don't disrupt other people's lighting, so by no stretch of the imagination do her remarks apply to you.  

Equally clearly, some people use facelights that seriously disrupt other people's lighting, to the extent that, in a crowded and dark club, they make it impossible to see the avatars around them because they're so washed out by the excessively bright lights.

---

And this is the other quote, in context:

SL only renders the 3 (or 6?) nearest light sources.

So when you wear a facelight, you screw up lighting for anyone near you.

Its essentially a -mild- form of griefing. Mild only because most people doing it don't know they are causing this impact to local lighting.

So, perhaps I'm only a -mild- griefer. But I've heard the protests from people saying that it impacts their local lighting (not in person, mind you, where I've never had a complaint; just here on the Forum). So maybe not so -mild-.

[Griffin Ceawlin]

"Griefing" is one of those fighting words, Penny. You know it. I know it.

If I use a facelight (and yes, they're called facelights, not "noselamps"), I'm a griefer, even if only a -mild- one.

Sure sounds like someone telling me how I should or should not live my Second Life to me.

[Innula Zenovka]

How Facelights used to affect other light sources, and still do for people who don't have Lighting and Shadows enabled, is a tad complex, but was explained for us by Kitty Barnett back in 2008.    So your Facelights, on the settings you seem to be using, shouldn't affect anyone's lighting particularly, unless you're so close to them that one hopes their attention is meant to be on you rather than the general surroundings.    No one else is likely to get the benefit of your Facelights, of course (which is why I stopped using mine -- no one else could see them anyway, I reasoned, so I'll just play with my Windlight settings so I look nice to me).  

I don't think people should use Facelights, or make static lighting effects, unless they actually know how SL lights affect each other.

[Penny Patton]

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Griffin Ceawlin wrote:

"Griefing" is one of those fighting words, Penny. You know it. I know it.

 

If I use a facelight (and yes, they're called facelights, not "noselamps"), I'm a griefer, even if only a -mild- one.

 

Sure sounds like someone telling me how I should or should not live my Second Life to me.

---

 

 "One of those righting words"? Sorry, no, it doesn't carry any special weight with me.

Sure sounds to me like you're going way out of your way to find something to be insulted about, and now that multiple people have pointed out that you're not even in the category being discussed, you've dug yourself a hole so deep you're unwilling to admit you were wrong.

[Griffin Ceawlin]

This isn't the first facelight discussion I've ever participated in. It's always the same bull.

"You're ruining local lighting."

"You're an attention whore."

"You're vain."

"You're selfish."

Now we can add:

"You're a griefer."

It's either a -mild- form of griefing... or it's not.

Guess we should wait for Pussycat to tell us which.

And I should ignore the rest. Right?

BTW, what exactly was I wrong about?

[Penny Patton]

---

Griffin Ceawlin wrote:

BTW, what exactly was I wrong about?

---

 I'll use pictures to see if that helps.

This;

 

Is not the same as this;

[Griffin Ceawlin]

Oh, but I'm still ruining local lighting! So, even though my facelight is turned down low and people and objects have to get within 0 meters of me for it to cast any light onto them... I'm a griefer, albeit a -mild- one.

I find it amusing, btw, that you'll defend the use of an attached light as long as it's not a phantom, ignoring the fact that it's ruining local lighting for everyone else.

Think of all the hours that builder put in to getting the lighting just right so that some fool with a flashlight can come along and spoil someone else's SL. Tsk. tsk.

[Innula Zenovka]

I'm sorry, but I really think you're being over-sensitive here, Griffin.   Certainly if I was still using Facelights (which, when I did, I had on similarly subdued settings to yours) I wouldn't have taken any of the strictures here as being directed at me.  No one is going to complain about your Facelights because no one can see them unless they're right up close to you, at least somewhere busy where there's lots of other light sources, so as far as most people are concerned, you might as well not be wearing any, and if you turned them off, probably no one would notice any difference.    You might as well not be wearing them, since they're doing no more harm than they do any good.

 

[Freya Mokusei]

Some posters here are quite happy to make a solid black-white answer on Facelights: the whole thread is filled with people saying NO, NOT EVER, NOT IN MY SL. To my eyes, that's the attitude that Griffin's fighting.

The statement "x may be considered a mild form of griefing" is too easily reducable to "you may be mildly breaking ToS if you x"; that's a strong accusation to make. Especially when a 'mild' break of the ToS can still (to peoples' perception) cost you access to your account. Using the word 'griefing' in that sentence was intentionally inflamattory.*

It's fairly obvious that while Facelights are affecting other peoples' experiences, this is a moot point. Simply having an avatar walk across your view affects your framerates, imposters, shadows, etc. It's also been pointed out that there are legitimate uses for attached lights. If RPer's get a pass for needing lanterns to see (when they could adjust windlight settings), then others must get a pass under the same conditions (i.e., when adjusting windlight settings would 'fix' the percieved issue).

Clearly, a 'no' to attached lights won't work.

If an absolute 'no' doesn't work, then the case must be finding the 'line' between sensible illumination and abusive lumination. As Penny's post above shows, it's quite an obvious line.

ETA: * The word 'Griefing' in SL has a very specific, very concrete definition, set out by LL in their ToS. It's 'breaking the law'.

[Perrie Juran]

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Griffin Ceawlin wrote:

My world, my imagination, Penny.

 

When people try to tell me how I should live my Second Life and suggest that if I don't live it exactly as they'd like me to that I may be a "griefer" (never mind that I'm not exactly a resource hog and I break none of the TOS), yeah, I kinda get bent out of shape about it. The anti-facelight brigade is just one element (the "scale" Nazis are another; one can't help but notice the crossover). If I choose to have a giant avatar with strings of Christmas lights hanging off of me, a slave tethered to each, that's my business, isn't it?

 

As for aesthetics... this may present a better view (same settings; Ultra, default midnight, facelight set to low brightness and small radius):

 

It may not serve a purpose for you. I don't happen to care about that. It serves mine.

Have a nice day.

---

I totally agree with you about it being "Your World, Your Imagination."  And I do not consider it my place to tell any one else how to live their lives.  I may make a suggestion or express my opinion regarding something, and some things I have very strong opinions about.  But I still always say, "Your World, Your Imagination."

Obviously there are things that are clearly understood by many of us as being defined by Linden Lab as griefing.  Yet we still get our share of people who post in here saying, "I had no idea what I did was wrong," or who think that they should be able to do whatever they want.

One of the things here is we are still a community or at least at a minimum that we share this World.  So there will always be issues that fall under the heading of "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."  Because what is clearly defined as griefing in the TOS, well, isn't that what the issue really is about? Everyone's ability to Enjoy the World to it's max?

While I would never call someone who wears a Facelight a 'griefer,' yes, they do cause me grief In World.  Lot's of it.  So am I supposed to never say anything at all?  Is it wrong of me to ask another resident if they are aware of the problems their Facelight is causing other people?  Do I not have an equal right to be able to enjoy a venue with out it washing out my enjoyment of the World?  Where and how do we find the balance?

[Malanya]

@Faye yes there are avi's named Malanya. I know by experience shopping inworld and on MP that  1) sometimes you don't receive your purchase or the item you purchased   2) Item(s) get sent to the wrong avatar either when purchasing outright or as a gift. No need for apologies. I know those issues are not with sellers but have a lot to due with delivery and circumstance beyond your control. I would check on posting a customer's transaction like that though it may involve a privacy issue if the person didn't ask for it to be discussed on a forum as I am sure I am not the only Malanya that reads the forums, I say that without any rudeness.

 It is hard as on any social site to express the attitude or emotion in text. I meant my post in a light hearted way with receiving the email and clueless. I feel that too many people complain instead of teaching people how to make this shared world a more enjoyable place. Residents have the right to use anything they want but yes if it is disturbing to another there are ways to handle it, but not griefing unless it has malicious intent behind it (as it was referred to a form of griefing by another poster) and your OP didn't express that, just that it was annoying. You have the right to rant and we all have the right to reply. I was thrown by the only other response that was a hidden warning about posting in the community, I don't need a scolding by here by any means. It's funny SOME people that have been here a few years feel they can act like that towards others they BELIEVE don't know what's going on in sl opposed to those of us who came back a few years later. I did read all of your replies :matte-motes-bashful-cute-2:Thank you for your reply.

 

[Charolotte Caxton]

 

 

[Dresden Ceriano]

Wait a minute... let me get this straight...

Pussycat equates people who wear facelights to griefers and Griffin is somehow being oversensitive for pointing out the ridiculousness of that assertion?  Give me a break.

Calling someone a griefer implies nefarious intent and, while it doesn't surprise me that Pussycat would take such a radical stance, it boggles my mind that anyone else, with half a brain, would support such a contentious, hyperbolic statement.

...Dres

[JoJo Aurelia]

---

Malanya wrote:

@Faye yes there are avi's named Malanya. I know by experience shopping inworld and on MP that  1) sometimes you don't receive your purchase or the item you purchased   2) Item(s) get sent to the wrong avatar either when purchasing outright or as a gift. No need for apologies. I know those issues are not with sellers but have a lot to due with delivery and circumstance beyond your control. I would check on posting a customer's transaction like that though it may involve a privacy issue if the person didn't ask for it to be discussed on a forum as I am sure I am not the only Malanya that reads the forums, I say that without any rudeness.

 It is hard as on any social site to express the attitude or emotion in text. I meant my post in a light hearted way with receiving the email and clueless. I feel that too many people complain instead of teaching people how to make this shared world a more enjoyable place. Residents have the right to use anything they want but yes if it is disturbing to another there are ways to handle it, but not griefing unless it has malicious intent behind it (as it was referred to a form of griefing by another poster) and your OP didn't express that, just that it was annoying. You have the right to rant and we all have the right to reply. I was thrown by the only other response that was a hidden warning about posting in the community, I don't need a scolding by here by any means. It's funny SOME people that have been here a few years feel they can act like that towards others they BELIEVE don't know what's going on in sl opposed to those of us who came back a few years later. I did read all of your replies :matte-motes-bashful-cute-2:Thank you for your reply.

 

---

My OP was troll-like, actually, and I did address that in a later post... It was a crazy day and I went sideways...but I left it because people are "talking" about facelights and that's a good thing, on both sides of the fence.  I've learned a lot reading the posts.  It's been my experience over the years on any forums that no matter what is said, how it's said, what it's about, someone will post back and rip that OP a new one. The topic doesn't matter, the forum doesn't matter.  It's one of the reasons I don't post much anywhere on the Internet. Many people "edit" their posts after they say something nefarious, for example someone said my skin was cheap, and then they removed that when I said who my skin maker was... I try not to edit what I've said even if I wish I'd not said it! Anyways... regarding privacy, I thought about that, but it was a pair of shorts. If it was a thingy or a whoopie bed, I'd not have put it there. But point well taken and the forum cops took it off. TYVM

[Malanya]

LOL...Awesome popultaion control!

[Charolotte Caxton]

Cuts down on lag.

[Innula Zenovka]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

Wait a minute... let me get this straight...

Pussycat equates people who wear facelights to griefers and Griffin is somehow being oversensitive for pointing out the ridiculousness of that assertion?  Give me a break.

Calling someone a griefer implies nefarious intent and, while it doesn't surprise me that Pussycat would take such a radical stance, it boggles my mind that anyone else, with half a brain, would support such a contentious, hyperbolic statement.

...Dres

---

No, you haven't quite got it straight.

What Pussycat actually said, in context, was:

---

There's some serious debate here over whether or not a person wearing facelights disrupts the lighting for others around them.

- If that is the case, then it is essentially a form of griefing. Mild as most may not be aware they are doing this to others.

---

Griffen took this to apply to him, for no good reason that I can understand, since clearly his facelights are so subdued that they can't possibly be disrupting other people's lighting.

I just wish that more people would show the good sense in adjusting their facelights so as not be obtrusive and disruptive that Griffin has shown in adjusting is.