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Mobile SL isn't far off

Paul Hexem

By Paul Hexem,
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Qie Niangao

Qie Niangao

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Firstly, I think the tech-spec focus here kind of misses the big enduring problem of usability. The way users interact with a virtual world will need some serious re-thinking if it's to have broad appeal on mobile devices.  (Not just screen real estate--my Retina-screened iPad has way more pixels than my desktop display, but using touch to control my SL experience... that needs changes deep in the UI design.)

Also, I never bet against mobile technology. For example, IBM's Lithium-air technology might start appearing in mobile devices and remove the battery bottleneck for a decade or two.

Finally, it's good to be concerned about SL's mobile viability. There are new platforms (e.g., Cloud Party -- which isn't what it sounds like, in this discussion) that pose existential threats to SL, unless SL either gets mobile-capable or becomes a true interactive building environment (that is, embeds Blender-like Mesh creation, not merely enables import like everything else that will soon be capable of everything SL does now).

(Incidentally, I see Cloud Party as an immediate death warrant for OpenSim. Killing off SL's scale advantage would take a little longer.)

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Masami Kuramoto

Masami Kuramoto

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Qie Niangao wrote:

(Incidentally, I see Cloud Party as an immediate death warrant for OpenSim. Killing off SL's scale advantage would take a little longer.)

Cloud Party is a threat neither to SL nor to OpenSim. To see why, you need to look at what makes each of those platforms attractive. For SL it is nine years or 192 terabytes of content as well as a certain level of anonymity in roleplay activities. For OpenSim it is the appeal of true ownership and independence.

Cloud Party is a walled garden just like SL. Few people will give up OpenSim for that. It is more likely that Cloud Party will encourage someone to create a similar WebGL-based front-end for OpenSim. That would make perfect sense as it would complete OpenSim's mission to become the Apache server for virtual worlds, a cross-platform middleware between standard database servers and standard web browsers.

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Vance Adder

Vance Adder

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Epic has had their Unreal engine working flawlessly on mobiles for a long time now. Since then, mobiles have only gotten faster and it will only continue. Epic is good at creating very efficient code capable of squeezing maximum performance from hardware with minimal waste. A quick glance at low quality Second Life without the lighting, shadars, and extra features and I see absolutely zero reason that couldn't be brought over to a mobile platform today. Realistically (and it's already been mentioned), the only problems would be streamlining the UI and power consumption. To address those problems, you need some sharp usability experts. As for power consumption, this has already been discussed at length.

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Qie Niangao

Qie Niangao

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:

Qie Niangao wrote:

(Incidentally, I see Cloud Party as an immediate death warrant for OpenSim. Killing off SL's scale advantage would take a little longer.)

Cloud Party is a threat neither to SL nor to OpenSim. To see why, you need to look at what makes each of those platforms attractive. For SL it is nine years or 192 terabytes of content as well as a certain level of anonymity in roleplay activities. For OpenSim it is the appeal of true ownership and independence.

Cloud Party is a walled garden just like SL. Few people will give up OpenSim for that. It is more likely that Cloud Party will encourage someone to create a similar WebGL-based front-end for OpenSim. That would make perfect sense as it would complete OpenSim's mission to become the Apache server for virtual worlds, a cross-platform middleware between standard database servers and standard web browsers.

That's awfully optimistic, in my opinion. especially about OpenSim. I suppose it's possible that the developers harbor no illusions about there ever being many users, nor much revenue, but I really doubt the significant effort that goes into it would be much motivated by knowledge that the thing is simply never going to grow. And there's just no getting around it, nobody starts at OpenSim; it feeds solely at the teat of SL's marketing, such as it is. If, say, 90% of new SL prospects are instead diverted to another platform, SL can linger, but it so limits the future of OpenSim that it would take real OCD to keep slogging away at developing it. (That's assuming OpenSim remains based on the SL sim/viewer architecture, not anything interoperable with other, successor platforms.  I can't imagine what such interoperability could mean, but otherwise, the rosiest forecast is to be the Apache server of buggywhips.)

And I do think that 90% of SL sign-ups would be perfectly happy in Cloud Party.  Sure, there are a few who (for whatever reasons) need their roleplay to remain anonymous, but that's not the growth market--unless LL pivots to emphasize Adult content exclusively. As to user-generated content, meh. Yeah, there's lots of it in SL, 90% of it is crap (Sturgeon's Law) and, if the vulnerability weren't already obvious, everything Mesh-based in SL is either already loaded on Cloud Party or can be with trivial effort.

Admittedly, Cloud Party may not be the actual successor here. I have my own doubts about their dev leads, for example, and some skepticism about Facebook's patience for such a venture, competing with other projects that turn to gold overnight. But I think it's an existence proof of a huge vulnerability that either the Lab addresses decisively, or it must accelerate shifting their business to other products.

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Storm Clarence

Storm Clarence

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Seven Overdrive wrote:

Storm Clarence wrote:

You may find
link interesting.

I saw that and think it is pretty neat, but sadly it's not available for iOS.  Good to see that someone is trying to get a graphical version of SL on mobile platforms though.  :smileyhappy:

I think it's pretty cool too.  However, we are further away than it appears.  There are issues with both hardware and software so by the time we figure it out SL in its current implementation may not exist.      

PS Sassy I guess I can make a blanket statement like that [sic] as there is at least one reference point.    

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Sassy Romano

Sassy Romano

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Storm Clarence wrote:

Seven Overdrive wrote:

Storm Clarence wrote:

You may find
link interesting.

I saw that and think it is pretty neat, but sadly it's not available for iOS.  Good to see that someone is trying to get a graphical version of SL on mobile platforms though.  :smileyhappy:

I think it's pretty cool too.  However, we are further away than it appears.  There are issues with both hardware and software so by the time we figure it out SL in its current implementation may not exist.      

PS Sassy I guess I can make a blanket statement like that [sic] as there is at least one reference point.    

It's not a good reference point though, non optimised, non official and incomplete.  Prior to this app, the frame of reference was "since there's no graphical viewer on a mobile device, it's not possible".

The existence of it says otherwise.  I did mention earlier that I felt that it is quite feasible but the lack of optimisation in the platform will be an issue.

I'm still happy using a remote client and streaming it for the occassions when I have to do that. :)

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Masami Kuramoto

Masami Kuramoto

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Qie Niangao wrote:

That's awfully optimistic, in my opinion. especially about OpenSim. I suppose it's possible that the developers harbor no illusions about there ever being many users, nor much revenue, but I really doubt the significant effort that goes into it would be much motivated by knowledge that the thing is simply never going to grow. And there's just no getting around it, nobody starts at OpenSim; it feeds solely at the teat of SL's marketing, such as it is. If, say, 90% of new SL prospects are instead diverted to another platform, SL can linger, but it so limits the future of OpenSim that it would take real OCD to keep slogging away at developing it. (That's assuming OpenSim remains based on the SL sim/viewer architecture, not anything interoperable with other, successor platforms.  I can't imagine what such interoperability could mean, but otherwise, the rosiest forecast is to be the Apache server of buggywhips.)

Just like any other open source project, OpenSim does not need growth and revenue. It can continue existing as a niche product for many years to come, even beyond the end of Second Life. It does currently depend on Linden Lab's viewer software, but if Linden Lab folds, their viewer will still be around. OpenSim will continue to be used by those who want to host "their own" virtual worlds, online or offline. Neither SL nor CP currently offer that.

I was considered too optimistic about virtual worlds using JavaScript and WebGL at a time when most people expected Unity 3D to take over the whole virtual worlds market. Now, with Cloud Party as a proof of concept, the elephant in the room has grown so large, it is impossible to ignore any longer. One interesting thing about CP is that the client is open source and can be studied by anyone interested. So I predict there will be a WebGL-based viewer for OpenSim at some point -- and it may actually come from Linden Lab!

And I do think that 90% of SL sign-ups would be perfectly happy in Cloud Party.  Sure, there are a few who (for whatever reasons) need their roleplay to remain anonymous, but that's not the growth market--unless LL pivots to emphasize Adult content exclusively. As to user-generated content, meh. Yeah, there's lots of it in SL, 90% of it is crap (Sturgeon's Law) and, if the vulnerability weren't already obvious, everything Mesh-based in SL is either already loaded on Cloud Party or can be with trivial effort.

The Facebook login problem can be fixed easily by introducing display names and hiding the "real" login names. In fact Cloud Party's support forum is already doing just that. Facebook's policy doesn't have to be Cloud Party's policy.

When I talk about terabytes of content making people stick to SL, I don't mean to imply that CP can't have tons of nice content. What I mean is that SL users have grown large inventories over the years, and it's hard for them to give those up, even if a competing world is technically superior and/or cheaper. Creators can transfer content between worlds easily, but their customers can't.

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Qie Niangao

Qie Niangao

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I'm not sure our threads ever crossed on the subject, but I too have long been "too optimistic" about WebGL in public, so we retroactively agree on that anyway. :smileywink: Indeed, that's why I raised the subject of Cloud Party in a thread ostensibly about Mobile SL, so I sure hope you're right, and that the Lab has a team somewhere putting the final touches on a tablet-friendly WebGL-based viewer.

Repeating myself from an earlier post, the other (not mutually exclusive) option for SL's viability (and/or OpenSim's) is to focus again on in-world creation as the core of SL content, instead of abandoning that differentiator in favor of the much easier current approach of commodity mesh import. At the moment, Cloud Party seems to be slavishly following the Blue Mars path -- indeed, the place is currently populated by the usual suspects early adopters from Blue Mars, back when it still had prospects of relevance.

Of course, content can be much more than geometry, so it's possible for SL to retain differentiation by such things as better scripting and interactivity, or other elaborations that make content "platform-sticky." I think that's what pathfinding and experience permissions are really about -- on the premise that Rodvik is businessman enough to see the risk in imported user-generated content that can be readily imported everywhere else, too.

Not to focus on our differences, but perhaps to clarify: I think you're quite correct that current SL (and OpenSim) users will remain "sticky" to their inventories of user-generated content... for a while. If, however, another platform breaks through to a new virtual worlds market an order of magnitude larger, with an order of magnitude more user-generated content being created for it, before long SL will look like MySpace, and OpenSim like a ham radio club.

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Maelstrom Janus

Maelstrom Janus

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Surely rather than trying to jump ahead and package sl for another group of users wouldnt it be nice if Lindens tried to focus on sorting out issues which continue to be a headache for existing users. Im crashing on tp more than ever and tps arent actually working 'more than ever'...boundary crashes are still the norm rather than the exception despite the promises of a previous 'seo'...

 

The building menu hasnt undergone any changes for ages and new features for 'inworld' builders are rarer than chickens teeth....

 

Instead of trying to bundle up sl so that it works on some piddling little screen try and get it working for everyone else. I see this proposed modifications as merely resulting in a diminished service for people who wnat to view sl as they have always done on a decently sized monitor screen.

 

In my book these supposed steps forward never seme to mean improvements...look at mesh... all it meant was clothes that dont properly fit your avi, items which take ages to rez and the inworld building system falling into a state of stasis rather than pushing features forward for inworld builders....

 

 

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  • 6 months later...
KinPlayful

KinPlayful

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I don't believe there is a "specific" viewer for mobile. I have found a way that you can access SL on a mobile device though ... it works fine on my iPhone, iPad and iPod.

Go to your App Store and search "Splashtop 2 - Remote Desktop" ... the App itself cost about $4.99US

This will enable you to remotely hook in to your PC desktop from anywhere with your mobile device. IT took about 5 minutes to download the app, install and make a couple of changes on my PC ... and it works just fine :)

... of course, what ever you access on your mobile device will be displayed on your PC while you are not there ... just saying **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt=":smileywink:" title="Smiley Wink" />

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Zzog Posthorn

Zzog Posthorn

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It is very possible to use a touch screen to naviate around sl, however it is a bit combersome. 

I use my iphone (works on ipad better) to remote my desktop machine ... all the heavy grapihc lifting is done by the desktop and the iphone just handled the remote session. Works well over what was 3g (even though they call it 4g now)  

For the remote session I used a app called splashtop which even sends the sound from the desktop to my phone (but no sound going back from phone to desktop) this allows me to see a seen and move about. I actually float the arrow keys up from splashtop so its a bit easier to use but agian you just double click to navigate where you want you AV to go and it walks there. 

However to be honest that eats through battery fairly quickly and so 9 times out of 10 I am just logging in to have a quick chat with people and in that case will go with the text based solution called Pocket MV.

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Christin73

Christin73

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I too have pocket mv. Its ok. I am slowly learning how to move and not just stand in one spot. Also apparently they fixed the cloud issue because last night I was not a cloud to people. I was actualy fully rezzed. I am glad that they fixed cloud. The next step will be to be able to change outfits. Unfortunantly you have to pay $5.00 to have access to your inventory. But its better then nothing. And yes it does seem to eat up battery power fairly fast.

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