Sassy Romano Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Bhakti Mimulus wrote: So, are you saying that a viewer based AO is much better in preventing lag? WHy would SL build a viewer that is not optimized for their site? BT There's lots of things that LL do with their viewer that are less than optimal. Viewer 2 in its original debut was so far off the usability that people rejected it. The viewer has evolved over time, just like everything else. Always lots of places that it can be optimised but isn't in the default LL viewer. They only have so much resource. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Bhakti Mimulus wrote: WHy would SL build a viewer that is not optimized for their site? BT We keep wondering the same exact thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloo Uriza Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Bhakti Mimulus wrote: So, are you saying that a viewer based AO is much better in preventing lag? WHy would SL build a viewer that is not optimized for their site? It's not that it isn't optimized, it's that it's basic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 Sassy Romano wrote: Medhue Simoni wrote: Why would and AO need 17 scripts? Now, I'm not a coder, but I did help develope my own AO. Whether the calls are made by a script, or by a viewer, there has to be communication to the server or no1 else would see the animations. All that you are doing with a viewer is saving that .01s time in the sim's script time, which is not hammering a sim but making calls when needed. Again, I'm not a coder, but I think I remember the time actually being 0.001ms. The only time this is going to affect anything, is if the sim owner massively overloads their sim with scripts. And this is exactly what bothers me about this arguement. There are many aspects to Lag, and many other things that are creating many more problems, yet people want to quivel over some tiny .001ms, but ignore the 5000 textures their viewer is downloading and redownloading. If anything, a viewer based AO is simply adding to the work your own pc is doing. You'd have to ask the creator of that AO to get that answer. Point being, there are potentially a number of scripts per AO (not all of course) which depending on the implementation could be running around with open listeners and all sorts of other code which is simply not required when there's no LSL scripted AO in use. As for viewer and AO doing the same thing, no. The viewer already knows the locomotion state of the avatar in local code and can play the appropriate animation and the UUID of the animation is known to other viewers. The LSL scripted AO has a fast timer (once you get "fast" it makes little difference if it's 0.01, 0.001 or whatever because it's not bound to be that and there's typically not enough frame time for it to work at that desired time anyway). That fast timer is constantly requesting the avatar locomotion state (an LSL function) and then calling llStartAnimation just to get an animation going so is constantly making LSL processing all the time. A viewer based AO is doing very little at the local PC. There's quite a difference indeed. There are a few ways to make an AO script, and they are not the same in how they use the resources, which is why we made our own. Plus, I'm talking about strictly AOs, not all the extra stuff that people add to them. Adding those extras to a comparison with a viewer AO and a scripted AO, isn't even a proper comparison or arguement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 Baloo Uriza wrote: Bhakti Mimulus wrote: So, are you saying that a viewer based AO is much better in preventing lag? WHy would SL build a viewer that is not optimized for their site? It's not that it isn't optimized, it's that it's basic. This is really the ultimate point. If there is 1 thing that makes your avatar fun, it's the things that your avatar can do. A viewer based AO is as basic as you can get. You might as well just go play in Blue Mars. They don't even overide all the AO overrideds. If there is 1 thing that every sim owner should consider, it is letting your residents play. Yes, there are limits, but if you don't let them have some toys, they won't be coming back. I totally abandoned my Linden home cause they have no clue how to set up a sim and turned scripts off in all the common areas. So, to even change my hud while I was out and about, I had to find some1's porch who allowed scripts to run. I have jump enhancers in some of my AOs, and I love jumping everywhere, from building top to building top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: There is a couple of way to make an AO, and they are not the same in how they use the resources, which is why we made our own. Plus, I'm talking about strictly AO, not all the extra stuff that people add to them. Fundamentally, you get the locomotion state in a fast timer and play an animation. There aren't many other ways than that to determine the current state of the avatar and what animation should be playing. That's the issue. All the other stuff about the hud is just fluff and can be done in all kinds of ways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 Bhakti Mimulus wrote: Sassy Romano wrote: Medhue Simoni wrote: Why would and AO need 17 scripts? Now, I'm not a coder, but I did help develope my own AO. Whether the calls are made by a script, or by a viewer, there has to be communication to the server or no1 else would see the animations. All that you are doing with a viewer is saving that .01s time in the sim's script time, which is not hammering a sim but making calls when needed. Again, I'm not a coder, but I think I remember the time actually being 0.001ms. The only time this is going to affect anything, is if the sim owner massively overloads their sim with scripts. And this is exactly what bothers me about this arguement. There are many aspects to Lag, and many other things that are creating many more problems, yet people want to quivel over some tiny .001ms, but ignore the 5000 textures their viewer is downloading and redownloading. If anything, a viewer based AO is simply adding to the work your own pc is doing. A viewer based AO is doing very little at the local PC. There's quite a difference indeed. So, are you saying that a viewer based AO is much better in preventing lag? WHy would SL build a viewer that is not optimized for their site? BT Technically, in general, AOs don't cause any lag at all. If a well made AO script is lagging a sim, it is because the sim owner is using up way too many resources and not leaving any for the residents to use any. Let me give you a good example, which is my own sim. I have a huge store, and Roberto, my scriptor, has a huge store. Plus, I have a furniture maker on my sim, who uses way more resources than both me and Roberto. Plus, we created a whole combat system with about 20 animated NPCs roaming around that will attack you and you can kill them and eat them. The combat system also has numerous script items on the sim, which allow you to interact with them. So, I have all this going on with my sim, and if I want to have a battle with 20 people and hundreds of bullets flying everywhere, it's not big deal and we will rarely see any lag at all. If we do, it is always because some1 in the group is lagging every1 else with with the objects they are wearing, and I'm not talking about any scripts here. So, when it comes to scripting, it is all about how well the scripts are made. Now, when it comes to things like textures and polygons on Avatars, the sim owners can't control that and it is up to the users to wear reasonable attire for the activities they are engaged in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: So, to even change my hud while I was out and about, I had to find some1's porch who allowed scripts to run. I have jump enhancers in some of my AOs, and I love jumping everywhere, from building top to building top. If it's your own HUD, why not just script it so that it works in script disabled land? I agree that a viewer based AO won't necessarily have the same functions as a scripted one but which locomotion states are missing? Have you looked at the current Firestorm list? The viewer AO there can also load different animation sets, cycle and randomise and that suits probably what most people do with an AO. Of course it won't suit an AO that's specific to the needs of a custom avatar for example where there's a need to animate a jaw in a growl but that's not the majority of uses. I do understand wanting to defend scripted AO's so vigorously when it's a key product that is sold but just as easy to sell the animation sets and suitable instructions for import to a viewer based AO. In fact do both, make it easy for the end user such that they don't have to extract all the animations first if the end result is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 Sassy Romano wrote: Medhue Simoni wrote: So, to even change my hud while I was out and about, I had to find some1's porch who allowed scripts to run. I have jump enhancers in some of my AOs, and I love jumping everywhere, from building top to building top. If it's your own HUD, why not just script it so that it works in script disabled land? I agree that a viewer based AO won't necessarily have the same functions as a scripted one but which locomotion states are missing? Have you looked at the current Firestorm list? The viewer AO there can also load different animation sets, cycle and randomise and that suits probably what most people do with an AO. Of course it won't suit an AO that's specific to the needs of a custom avatar for example where there's a need to animate a jaw in a growl but that's not the majority of uses. I do understand wanting to defend scripted AO's so vigorously when it's a key product that is sold but just as easy to sell the animation sets and suitable instructions for import to a viewer based AO. In fact do both, make it easy for the end user such that they don't have to extract all the animations first if the end result is the same. It's not about defending scripted AOs, it's about what is better for the users, and what is really the cause of all the lag that most people experience. Why don't I overide the no script function, cause I don't like overriding SL inate functions, which if used correctly, is about the sim owner having control and using the sim the way they want. My AO will still function, you just can't use the buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 Sassy Romano wrote: Medhue Simoni wrote: So, to even change my hud while I was out and about, I had to find some1's porch who allowed scripts to run. I have jump enhancers in some of my AOs, and I love jumping everywhere, from building top to building top. I agree that a viewer based AO won't necessarily have the same functions as a scripted one but which locomotion states are missing? Have you looked at the current Firestorm list? The viewer AO there can also load different animation sets, cycle and randomise and that suits probably what most people do with an AO. I haven't looked lately at Firestormers, but does it overide swimming? How about swim turning? Does it automatically go into swimming when you are in SL water? Can you swim in some1's pool? How about fly turning, slow fly, or your typing anim, or your away anim, or your busy anim. These are just off the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: Sassy Romano wrote: Medhue Simoni wrote: So, to even change my hud while I was out and about, I had to find some1's porch who allowed scripts to run. I have jump enhancers in some of my AOs, and I love jumping everywhere, from building top to building top. If it's your own HUD, why not just script it so that it works in script disabled land? I agree that a viewer based AO won't necessarily have the same functions as a scripted one but which locomotion states are missing? Have you looked at the current Firestorm list? The viewer AO there can also load different animation sets, cycle and randomise and that suits probably what most people do with an AO. Of course it won't suit an AO that's specific to the needs of a custom avatar for example where there's a need to animate a jaw in a growl but that's not the majority of uses. I do understand wanting to defend scripted AO's so vigorously when it's a key product that is sold but just as easy to sell the animation sets and suitable instructions for import to a viewer based AO. In fact do both, make it easy for the end user such that they don't have to extract all the animations first if the end result is the same. It's not about defending scripted AOs, it's about what is better for the users, and what is really the cause of all the lag that most people experience. Why don't I overide the no script function, cause I don't like overriding SL inate functions, which if used correctly, is about the sim owner having control and using the sim the way they want. My AO will still function, you just can't use the buttons. The sim owner doesn't have control. Fly 70m above ground, scripts run. It's a pointless setting to be honest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 Now that, I did not know, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: I haven't looked lately at Firestormers, but does it overide swimming? How about swim turning? Does it automatically go into swimming when you are in SL water? Can you swim in some1's pool? How about fly turning, slow fly, or your typing anim, or your away anim, or your busy anim. These are just off the top of my head. It's pretty comprehensive, doesn't include away or busy (i'm never away via config and busy I won't use because items get lost) so neither of those states interest me. Swimming down/up/forward are covered, there's no such state as swimming left/right so they do need to be done in a scripted item by determining "in water". Typing is covered yes. In my case, when I enter water, my swimming hud auto attaches and when I leave water it auto detaches. As I said, horses for courses but most people won't need a scripted AO to be worn all the time and could easily use a viewer based one for most of their need. Zero sim impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakti Mimulus Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Sassy Romano wrote: Medhue Simoni wrote: I haven't looked lately at Firestormers, but does it overide swimming? How about swim turning? Does it automatically go into swimming when you are in SL water? Can you swim in some1's pool? How about fly turning, slow fly, or your typing anim, or your away anim, or your busy anim. These are just off the top of my head. As I said, horses for courses but most people won't need a scripted AO to be worn all the time and could easily use a viewer based one for most of their need. Zero sim impact. Ok, you convinced me to try Firestorm again. For some reason, I always go back to the SL viewer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 I think you forget I'm an animator, If I say there are swim turning state, than there are, or I've been making imaginary animations for years, lol. Or maybe, Roberto just knows more tricks than most. Ulitmately, If Firestorm could make an AO system that I approve of, I'd consider it. The biggest reason I would never want LL to make an internal AO is that they can't be trusted. They fix whatever they feel like. I'm still waiting for them to fix a 6 year old looping bug which, techinically, affects all looping animations. They still haven't fixed turning priorities. The whole uploader needs a complete redo and they just won't do it. The less they are involved, the better. But again, this is about what is actually causing the lag that most people experience. Yes, there are things like the HUDDLE that use alot, but this is not the norm that any1 will get from an animator. Texture and polygon lag is what is the main culprit for 99% of all the lag that people see. Especially if they are using an old laptop. If they are using and old laptop, than adding more work for it with an internal AO is not going to help them. So, granted, not by alot, but an internal AO is probably not the way to go for them, as well as all the other extra features they'd use in their veiwer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: I think you forget I'm an animator, If I say there are swim turning state, than there are, or I've been making imaginary animations for years, lol. Or maybe, Roberto just knows more tricks than most. Ulitmately, If Firestorm could make an AO system that I approve of, I'd consider it. The biggest reason I would never want LL to make an internal AO is that they can't be trusted. They fix whatever they feel like. I'm still waiting for the to fix a 6 year old looping bug which, techinically, affect all looping animations. They still haven't fixed turning priorities. The less they are involved, the better. But again, this is about what is actually causing the lag that most people experience. Yes, there are things like the HUDDLE that use alot, but this is not the norm that any1 will get from an animator. Texture and polygon lag is what is the main culprit for 99% of all the lag that people see. Especially if they are using an old laptop. Of course I don't forget. the list of playing animations is here http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetAnimation and the locomotion states are here http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetAgentInfo As you'll see, there's no such animation state as "swimming turning" but what is easy enough to do via script is determine when the avatar is in water and then replace "turning left/right" with an animation which is a swimming left or right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 See but the thing is also how these things work and what you can change. If you are not an animator, and you aren't asking animators what they want, then you have no business making an animation system. I deal with customers looking for animation and animation products on a daily basis. I pretty much know exactly what they want to see and how they want to use it, yet if you goto a user group meeting about internal AOs, you won't see 1 animator in the group. Can we please get off the AO topic, as it has little to nothing to do with the topic? Every1 that knows anything about creating 3d objects, knows that here is massive texture and polygon abuse in SL. That's why I made the video, so that shoppers would be more educated when choosing mesh and other clothing or worn items. The reason is that mesh has the ability to even be worse than prims and sculpties because LL does nothing to limit the things you wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 1 final word, just incase you think I'm arguing because I'm gonna lose money. I'll make about 8 times the money if people just buy individual animations. My AO packages are actually that much cheaper. So, techinically, I should be all for internal AOs. I make the packages because the animations are made to go together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 Here is a blog by LL announcing different projects they are implementing right now to address many of the issues we have talked about in this thread. Kudos to LL! http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Tools-and-Technology/Project-Shining-to-Improve-Avatar-and-Object-Streaming-Speeds/ba-p/1583465 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charolotte Caxton Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Nice. Thanks for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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