Baloo Uriza Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Heck, it became possible to have a relatively complex avatar come in with ARCs well in the green with the introduction of sculpted primatives. Mesh just allows for more detail, though, sadly at this time, sacrifices the ability to use the clothing system we all grew up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloo Uriza Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Hopefully the clothing issue gets resolved soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: Bhakti Mimulus wrote: This whole conversation has been very interesting for me. I don't remember any Arc Wars. However, what I am finding now is that various sites are reporting my script count and memory usage and telling me I am burdening their sim. However, I am only wearing what i think I need. I don't know how to do without my AO, and I don't know now to shop for one that gives me the best functional bang for my scripts. The person who created my hair is no longer in business and I can't find one that I like better, and i have no idea if that is the issue. I have tried on several occassions to keep removing things until I hit an acceptable level from a couple of resource usage counters and by the time I get down to something they like, I am wearing almost nothing except for my clothes. Once I get to that point, i don't really want to play any more. For me, SL is more than just a chat place, and my avatar is what makes the whole game fun. BT Yep, and for now, things are going to be this way. With mesh here tho, it is very possible to have your whole avatar all done up and still be way under the limits. Plus, If the customers demand it, the merchants will have to consider these issues or earn much less. So this is as much an educational thing as it is a proactive thing. Mesh easily has the ability to get rid of a good portion of all the lag we see, if creators make things efficiently. As Baloo mentioned, texture are a huge part of the problem. and this is where mesh comes in big time. Just the amount of textures alone will be cut by the thousands compared to what we were dealing with a year ago. For the vast majority of mesh items created, they will require 1 texture for the whole mesh. Compare that to anything complex made with prims or sculpties. Personally I find all of this frustrating. I don't mind learning technical things. But that is not my forte in life. While there is a learning curve to Second Life it shouldn't require being a geek to be able to enjoy it. I love helping but I find the amount of time I spend doing that In World appalling. Maybe I need to learn how to say 'no' more often or play dumb when I get asked a question. The way ARC and Land Impact numbers are being handled are a step forward. But how am I supposed to know if for a given builds complexity that the numbers are good? How am I supposed to know if a creator had done a better job with textures that the Impact would have been only 5 rather than 10 or what ever the numbering system may be. Heck, now I need to go look up whether textures effect the impact number. I never thought about that before. All I really want to do is go enjoy my Second Life. I think it is the Labs responsibility that we are dealing with so much of this. They could have and still could do things to make sure that things were better optimized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Perrie Juran wrote: I think it is the Labs responsibility that we are dealing with so much of this. They could have and still could do things to make sure that things were better optimized. One of the more spot on statements in this entire thread. I've never seen a more hands-off, take no responsibility company in my entire life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloo Uriza Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Perrie Juran wrote: Personally I find all of this frustrating. I don't mind learning technical things. But that is not my forte in life. While there is a learning curve to Second Life it shouldn't require being a geek to be able to enjoy it. I love helping but I find the amount of time I spend doing that In World appalling. Maybe I need to learn how to say 'no' more often or play dumb when I get asked a question. Well, to be fair, you can enjoy SL without being a builder or a scripter. But if you do want to build or script, well, it's just the nature of the beast. Perrie Juran wrote: The way ARC and Land Impact numbers are being handled are a step forward. But how am I supposed to know if for a given builds complexity that the numbers are good? Lower is always better in terms of rendering cost (ie, how difficult is it to render that object). If you start getting into the yellows or reds on the colors, there's probably a way to simplify things. Wish there was a rendering cost info display for objects, since that would be useful for furry av builders and architects. Perrie Juran wrote: I think it is the Labs responsibility that we are dealing with so much of this. They could have and still could do things to make sure that things were better optimized. Pretty much the only way to do that is to make building and scripting a walled garden that only professionals given strict guidelines are allowed to use. When you let amatuers edit, you're going to get a broader result set. It would help if builders could take criticism more constructively. For example, when providing positive feedback on how to accomplish the same thing in a way that doesn't utterly destroy framerates, the typical reaction these days is WHY DO YOU AHTE MY AWESOME!1?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloo Uriza Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Gadget Portal wrote: One of the more spot on statements in this entire thread. I've never seen a more hands-off, take no responsibility company in my entire life. In terms of the content of the virtual reality, that's kind of the point of SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 Gadget Portal wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: I think it is the Labs responsibility that we are dealing with so much of this. They could have and still could do things to make sure that things were better optimized. One of the more spot on statements in this entire thread. I've never seen a more hands-off, take no responsibility company in my entire life. If you ask me, LL should put the display cost of every item on the Marketplace. It should have it's own spot, like the land impact. Every items now has a display cost value, and I think it works the same as the Draw Avatar Cost or ARC or whatever it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloo Uriza Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 That'd be cool but hard to pull off, since most stuff comes boxed (even though, IIRC, the marketplace supports the much more convenient folder delivery option). Boxes would have a RC somewhere in the vicinity of 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 The vast majority would not care. I'd like to see script count listed, typical script time, memory use, whether scripts can be deleted or not but that won't happen. The vast majority don't care about that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloo Uriza Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Sassy Romano wrote: The vast majority would not care. I'd like to see script count listed, typical script time, memory use, whether scripts can be deleted or not but that won't happen. The vast majority don't care about that either. It's not that they don't care, it's that they don't know they need to care. It's an awareness issue. If people knew that using more efficiently designed stuff means better framerates for not only yourself, but everyone around you, and efficiency was something that was advertised right on the box (so to speak), and everything else were equal, then people would pick the more efficient option almost every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakti Mimulus Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Baloo Uriza wrote: Sassy Romano wrote: The vast majority would not care. I'd like to see script count listed, typical script time, memory use, whether scripts can be deleted or not but that won't happen. The vast majority don't care about that either. It's not that they don't care, it's that they don't know they need to care. It's an awareness issue. If people knew that using more efficiently designed stuff means better framerates for not only yourself, but everyone around you, and efficiency was something that was advertised right on the box (so to speak), and everything else were equal, then people would pick the more efficient option almost every time. Yes, that is what i meant when I was talking about my AO/dance hud. I have had it for a long time, and it works great. I would have no idea how it compared script wise or memory wise with another hud. I have tried many, and this one had the best features for me. At no point did lag enter into my shopping becuase there was no way for me to know. The only thing I have ever been able to do was change things to mono when I have the option. When I make things myself, I am aware of texture use, but besides my clothes and hair, I don't carry these things with me very often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloo Uriza Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Heck, most viewers have an AO built in already; just load your animations into that and you're not increasing load on the sim any more than you would manually playing an animation out of your inventory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 Sassy Romano wrote: The vast majority would not care. I'd like to see script count listed, typical script time, memory use, whether scripts can be deleted or not but that won't happen. The vast majority don't care about that either. When you have a marketplace where competition is crazy, like SL, then all LL has to do is add the option, and merchants will rush to post their display costs. Well, all the merchants with low display costs would. Then, the consumers would start to notice and all would gravitate towards the more efficient content. It's literally that simple. I even bet we'd start to see those display cost on the actual signs, just because it would be a huge marketing bonus, much like LOW Prim is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 Baloo Uriza wrote: Heck, most viewers have an AO built in already; just load your animations into that and you're not increasing load on the sim any more than you would manually playing an animation out of your inventory. Well, whether script are an issue or not has everything to do with the sim owner and how many scripts are being used on their land. Plus, what kind of scripts. Many things that use prim animation scripts are very laggy, and some scripts are old. If you ask me, My land uses a crapload of script because I have a sciptor on my sim, with a huge store, and a furniture merchant, who uses more scripts than any1. Even me with all the things I test, and my whole combat system with animated npcs, those furniture scripts far exceed anything I have in my store. If a sim owner needs to limit the occupants, than it is more likely they are simply using up way too many resources themselves. Even with all I got going on with my sim, I could still have a good 20 people all using up 2k in script memory, and us all engaged in combat with hundreds of bullets rezzing per minute. Plus, I'm a bit biased. I make AOs. And, to me, If I had to move around SL without my full AO with greetings, gestures, and couples stuff all built in, I just won't leave my sim, lol. You gotta let people have some toys to play with. It's free entertainment for every1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Except LL's viewer which has no built in AO so they can't beat people up while not adding features that are in other viewers that help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Not necessarily. People pay for land, they have a quota upon which to put purchased items so need to know land impact. Right now there's no direct financial relationship between having something with low or high draw weight, therefore most don't care because they don't need to care. Until there's a financial impact, there, that's a better term than land impact, then I don't expect to see behavior change. Further, LL has over 200 marketplace JIRA entries, with showstoppers several months old. Maybe when theyve addresses 199 of them will this happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakti Mimulus Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Sassy Romano wrote: Not necessarily. People pay for land, they have a quota upon which to put purchased items so need to know land impact. Right now there's no direct financial relationship between having something with low or high draw weight, therefore most don't care because they don't need to care. Until there's a financial impact, there, that's a better term than land impact, then I don't expect to see behavior change. Further, LL has over 200 marketplace JIRA entries, with showstoppers several months old. Maybe when theyve addresses 199 of them will this happen. I certainly hope that LL does not start charging more for what I do on my land. I pay for this land to use its full capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Baloo Uriza wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Personally I find all of this frustrating. I don't mind learning technical things. But that is not my forte in life. While there is a learning curve to Second Life it shouldn't require being a geek to be able to enjoy it. I love helping but I find the amount of time I spend doing that In World appalling. Maybe I need to learn how to say 'no' more often or play dumb when I get asked a question. Well, to be fair, you can enjoy SL without being a builder or a scripter. But if you do want to build or script, well, it's just the nature of the beast. Perrie Juran wrote: The way ARC and Land Impact numbers are being handled are a step forward. But how am I supposed to know if for a given builds complexity that the numbers are good? Lower is always better in terms of rendering cost (ie, how difficult is it to render that object). If you start getting into the yellows or reds on the colors, there's probably a way to simplify things. Wish there was a rendering cost info display for objects, since that would be useful for furry av builders and architects. Perrie Juran wrote: I think it is the Labs responsibility that we are dealing with so much of this. They could have and still could do things to make sure that things were better optimized. Pretty much the only way to do that is to make building and scripting a walled garden that only professionals given strict guidelines are allowed to use. When you let amatuers edit, you're going to get a broader result set. It would help if builders could take criticism more constructively. For example, when providing positive feedback on how to accomplish the same thing in a way that doesn't utterly destroy framerates, the typical reaction these days is WHY DO YOU AHTE MY AWESOME!1?! Been without internet for two days such catching up. No, I don't want SL to go to only 'experts' can build. My main point is I feel very strongly that LL could do a much better job in orientation. Of course lower is always better when it comes to rendering cost. My point is if I am looking at a Mansion made with mesh and it has a rendering cost of "1000,' until the time comes that there are a significant amount of other Mansions to compare it too, how do I know whether or not it could have been built with a cost of say, only 500? There's going to be a learning curve here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 Sassy Romano wrote: Except LL's viewer which has no built in AO so they can't beat people up while not adding features that are in other viewers that help. See, the problem with your example is that AOs were never a problem. They were just demonized by the alternative viewer people, with no evidense at all that every1's AO was causing any lag at all. I have yet to see an AO script that could lag a sim. Whether you have a built in AO or a hud, all the same processes are still happening, just without a tiny call for an animation. The reality was, that it was the many other useless tools that people used, combined with the massively inefficient way that things were made, especially reguarding textures. Even today, very few people have made any kind of tutorials on how to make something efficiently, when any1 that knows anything about 3d and streaming content could have told you the problem 5 years ago, and what was gonna happen if LL didn't lead the way in educating it's creators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: Sassy Romano wrote: Except LL's viewer which has no built in AO so they can't beat people up while not adding features that are in other viewers that help. See, the problem with your example is that AOs were never a problem. They were just demonized by the alternative viewer people, with no evidense at all that every1's AO was causing any lag at all. I have yet to see an AO script that could lag a sim. Whether you have a built in AO or a hud, all the same processes are still happening, just without a tiny call for an animation. The difference? An AO has scripts (consume sim memory and processing time) and a fast timer. I've just done a quick sample and an AO with 17 scripts and a fast timer to keep hammering the sim with the llStartAnimation every 0.01s will always be a load compared with...um nothing (viewer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 Why would and AO need 17 scripts? Now, I'm not a coder, but I did help develope my own AO. Whether the calls are made by a script, or by a viewer, there has to be communication to the server or no1 else would see the animations. All that you are doing with a viewer is saving that .01s time in the sim's script time, which is not hammering a sim but making calls when needed. Again, I'm not a coder, but I think I remember the time actually being 0.001ms. The only time this is going to affect anything, is if the sim owner massively overloads their sim with scripts. And this is exactly what bothers me about this arguement. There are many aspects to Lag, and many other things that are creating many more problems, yet people want to quivel over some tiny .001ms, but ignore the 5000 textures their viewer is downloading and redownloading. If anything, a viewer based AO is simply adding to the work your own pc is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: Why would and AO need 17 scripts? Now, I'm not a coder, but I did help develope my own AO. Whether the calls are made by a script, or by a viewer, there has to be communication to the server or no1 else would see the animations. All that you are doing with a viewer is saving that .01s time in the sim's script time, which is not hammering a sim but making calls when needed. Again, I'm not a coder, but I think I remember the time actually being 0.001ms. The only time this is going to affect anything, is if the sim owner massively overloads their sim with scripts. And this is exactly what bothers me about this arguement. There are many aspects to Lag, and many other things that are creating many more problems, yet people want to quivel over some tiny .001ms, but ignore the 5000 textures their viewer is downloading and redownloading. If anything, a viewer based AO is simply adding to the work your own pc is doing. You'd have to ask the creator of that AO to get that answer. Point being, there are potentially a number of scripts per AO (not all of course) which depending on the implementation could be running around with open listeners and all sorts of other code which is simply not required when there's no LSL scripted AO in use. As for viewer and AO doing the same thing, no. The viewer already knows the locomotion state of the avatar in local code and can play the appropriate animation and the UUID of the animation is known to other viewers. The LSL scripted AO has a fast timer (once you get "fast" it makes little difference if it's 0.01, 0.001 or whatever because it's not bound to be that and there's typically not enough frame time for it to work at that desired time anyway). That fast timer is constantly requesting the avatar locomotion state (an LSL function) and then calling llStartAnimation just to get an animation going so is constantly making LSL processing all the time. A viewer based AO is doing very little at the local PC. There's quite a difference indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakti Mimulus Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I hope you are correct about this, because I don't know what I would do without my Huddles, and it does not seem to be supported or updated any longer. I have tried many AOs and none give me the funtionality that this does, or that I am as familiar with. I know how to use this one. Besides, no other AO tells me how it affects performance so what am I to go by? If the alternative is to not use my HUDS then I may as well go to Open Sim, which is a pretty unexciting experience to me so far. I normally run 4 HUDS, the Huddles, my private HUD, a radar, and a hug and kiss HUD. That does not seem to me to be too much to expect out of SL. Yet, all of the meters that I encounter say that I am way over in scripts and memory usage. Well, I do have nice hair too, and usually one piece of jewelry. When I experience lag, it seems to me to be from two things. Either there are lots of avatars on one sim, or the sim is full of textures and if you do control Alt T...all you see is red. BT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakti Mimulus Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Sassy Romano wrote: Medhue Simoni wrote: Why would and AO need 17 scripts? Now, I'm not a coder, but I did help develope my own AO. Whether the calls are made by a script, or by a viewer, there has to be communication to the server or no1 else would see the animations. All that you are doing with a viewer is saving that .01s time in the sim's script time, which is not hammering a sim but making calls when needed. Again, I'm not a coder, but I think I remember the time actually being 0.001ms. The only time this is going to affect anything, is if the sim owner massively overloads their sim with scripts. And this is exactly what bothers me about this arguement. There are many aspects to Lag, and many other things that are creating many more problems, yet people want to quivel over some tiny .001ms, but ignore the 5000 textures their viewer is downloading and redownloading. If anything, a viewer based AO is simply adding to the work your own pc is doing. A viewer based AO is doing very little at the local PC. There's quite a difference indeed. So, are you saying that a viewer based AO is much better in preventing lag? WHy would SL build a viewer that is not optimized for their site? BT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Huddles... 52 scripts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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