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How Laggy is Your Avatar?


Medhue Simoni
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I hate to be hugely pedantic and I appreciate the message that you're wanting to put across but ARC and lag are not the same thing.  We had the ARC wars a couple of years ago or so, lets not dig this up again, all kinds of misconceptions existed and still will.

I liken some of these sorts of analysis and explanation to saying that a CPU that runs at 100% is a bottleneck.  That would be true only if there's demand that cannot be met.

Similarly here, the rendering load that is caused by the complexity will differ from PC to PC so what has an undesirable effect to one person is not necessarily going to be a concern to others.

It might be argued "yes but it's now 'lagging' the sim by making it answer requests".  Ok see above about the CPU example, as long as the service delivery is within acceptable bounds, then it's acceptable or we'd all need to run around with no attachments and no scripts and that would be a pretty no fun place.

Lag is just too broad a word to use though without explaining where the impact of draw weight will be noticed and by whom.

I do not want to go through the "you're hair is lagging the sim" arguments all over again :)

Already regularly dealing with inaccurate script memory counters which is the follow on to the ARC wars.

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See, the problem with your side of the arguement, is that it only pertains to people that understand. It doesn't help the average person that couldn't give a crap about the details. They don't want to understand the complexity at all, and I don't blame them. The ARC and current version are a good basis for some1 to go off of, and a good basis to create from. Heck, if you are a creator and you can't stay under the limited, I'd venture to say that you might have more to learn, cause it isn't that hard to stay under, outside of making hair.

If you understand more than the average person, than you can just as easily ignore this post as it does not pertain to you at all. As things stand right now, people and creators that don't know any better are 90% of the Lag issues.

Yes, every person has a different PC, with different specs, but the VAST majority are barely running computers that make the minimum requirements. Again, this is about advice for the average SL party goers, or newby creators.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Yes, every person has a different PC, with different specs, but the VAST majority are barely running computers that make the minimum requirements. Again, this is about advice for the average SL party goers, or newby creators.

My point was simply that the title is then not addressed by the whole of the post as it only addresses one part of the issue and even then that's different per user.  I wasn't saying that the information doesn't have value, just that it's not wholly addressing the question of the subject so the subject should be something like "What's the draw weight of your avatar?" which it then does wholly address.

Like I said, i'm being pedantic but I choose to be, having had too many conversations similar to:-

"your ARC is too high, you're lagging the sim"

"your scripts are using too much memory"

"we relocated the mall up in the sky to reduce lag from scripts" (yes really.  Go on, try it.  Move Outlook further away  from Excel on your monitor and see if they each work faster). 

A little knowledge is not necessarily better than none and can end up being worse when not fully understood.  Just change the title, then the post answers it just fine :)

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Ctrl + Shift +1, and look at the time dialation.

There are many ways to lag a sim in Second Life and I can name a lot of them.

1. Script Time/ Script Memory.

2. Loading a lot of UUID's into the sim to be broadcast to other Agents/Avatars.

3. Packet Spamming.

4. Physics Crashing, I have managed to lag a full sim with only about 50 cubes all physical rapidly colliding with eachother very laggy before.

5. Network attacks.

6. Remote Hud/Object Attacks.

7. Scripted Attacks.

I think what they are talking about though is peoples computers, and Graphics cards not being able to process full avatars with a lot of Vertexes/Polygons, and that can be a problem in any game or service, but its a client side issue/user issue, not an actual problem with Second Life, unless a lot of creators are knowingly releaseing/selling content to crash other users which I doubt.

In fact one of my avatars with like a 10k ARC people were complaining like my friend, but I and a few other people around me had no issue viewing me at all and if it was lagging me I certainly wouldn't be wearing it, and of course there is a difference between wearing an avatar and some people it causes them to lag and then on purposely griefing other users by trying to crash people loading like 300+ sculpts on purpose.

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The stuff just done gone and got all slower and such.

What can folks do, if anything?

- That's really how it counts.

 

Not "the server is slower because of you, or here," and not "your client is slower because of you, or here."

It just done got slow-like.

If a rock is about to fall on my head, its enough to tell me to move out of the way, or move the world out of my way. I don't need to know the law of gravity nor the formular for calculating speed and acceleration and so on to know I ought to step aside.

 

I know for example, that if there are less heavy scripts around, things won't go so slow. So its good general practice to be light on scripts. Don't so much need to know how it affects who and why. Might even be better for some folks not too - so the iconoclasts can be tricked into acting in everyone's best interests, and not just their own - especially when the benefits come to both.

I know that, moving that club into the sky might not help it against the scripts down on the ground or folks on the ground from it... But hey... if I'm on the ground and that ain't, I done go faster. Most folks don't need to know why.

ANd in the video example - yeah, that hair will slow folks down, including the avatar wearing it. It doesn't really matter why. Just that it does. Some of us know why. Try to explain why to some others, and you'll just get back righteous indignation, and then they will act in their own worst interests, because the truth of why offended their self-importance.

 

So 'lag' is often better and more useful in its lay term definition: stuff done going slow-like. Than in its actual definitions split across client, server, network, etc...

 

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Hey guys, this is not a thread about all the causes of lag. This is about Avatar Lag. Yeah, there was a day when scripts were an issue. That is hardly the case today. Of course, I'm speaking generally. As a long time sim owner, server lag is a none issue, and has been for a very long time. If I ever do see any lag, it has to do with avatars, or sculpty and texture abuse on sims. Even at my store, because of all the products that I sell, I have hundreds of product sign textures, which I think I need to add another building to enclose a whole set of products.

Avatar Lag tho, is something that no1 can do anything about, other than what you do with your avatar. This is about educating users only enough that they have some knowledge that they could be impacting others with their choice in worn objects. Many times, I've found a customer complaining about lag, and I point out how high their ARC is. Many thank me for pointing this out, as now they understand why they keep seeing all this lag. They were all thinking this is just how SL is. They generally had no clue that something they wore could slow down their machine.

In my eyes, from what I've seen over the years, Avatar Lag is the single largest, most common lag, that any1 and every1 is going to experience in SL. The amount of inefficiently made items in SL far exceeds the amount of well made items in SL.

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it would be nice if the arc colors could be changed.... for those of us that are red/green colorblind. and move them... they show up right in the middle of nametags. what i love are the people that complain about how "laggy" someone av is in a store filled with high rex textures and thousands of sculpties.

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GothGirl Demonia wrote:

So basically you are talking about Polygons and Vertexes, and people with low end computers?

That is just one of the many things that can cause lag.

 

 

 

And texture abuse! In today's SL, 20 textures on 1 item, is not an uncommon occurence. Of course there are other causes of lag, outside of what we are discussing here, but some person, usually the land owner, has some control over that, and is hardly an issue if the person knows what they are doing.

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Maybe I'm just a mean person, but I believe if an avatar's ARC manages to slow your computer down, it's time to upgrade.

And if you can't afford a gaming computer, perhaps you should look into a different hobby besides computer gaming.

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I've finally gotten around to watching your video.

It would be better if you did a video targeting creators and merchants in SL. It is not fair to ask the average resident to take the time to learn these nitty gritty details which often do affect us.  While personally I have taken the time to do some Avatar optimizations, checking script counts, etc, it can be time consuming and is time taken away from just going out and enjoying SL.  It's too bad that there isn't a review board that could check items for optimization before they are put on sale in SL.  But really I don't think I'd support that.  While I know you are not calling for a return to the days of The Arc Wars,  the potential still exists. 

I did find it interesting that you brought up the issue of hair.  Hair is possibly the biggest resource hog there is.  Note especially Runitai Linden's comment on May 11 and Danny's comment afterward about the way hair is threaded in the viewer.  At least on the surface of things it appears that there is a solution to the hair problem.  https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MAINT-623?focusedCommentId=328285&page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels%3Acomment-tabpanel

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Gadget Portal wrote:

Maybe I'm just a mean person, but I believe if an avatar's ARC manages to slow your computer down, it's time to upgrade.

No, just ignorant.  There's ways to build objects that are more efficient than others, and good designers will keep texture sizes down and map them in ways that reduce the number of different textures an object requires, thus reducing the video RAM requirements.  Same with wireframes for raw mesh and scuplted prims.  Or choosing scupted or raw mesh prims over creating an object out of a jillion basic primatives.  You can have all the hardware in the world and still have lag if the people building the content are sufficiently ignorant/don't give a crap about other people.


Gadget Portal wrote:

And if you can't afford a gaming computer, perhaps you should look into a different hobby besides computer gaming.

If you want a walled garden where that's true, your XBOX wants some love.  

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GothGirl Demonia wrote:

So basically you are talking about Polygons and Vertexes, and people with low end computers?

That is just one of the many things that can cause lag.

On pretty much any GPU in the last five years or so, poly count and vertexes isn't the slayer that excessive texture size and texture count is.

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Similarly here, the rendering load that is caused by the complexity will differ from PC to PC so what has an undesirable effect to one person is not necessarily going to be a concern to others.

Sure, and stairs aren't problems for people with working legs, so hey, whoever needs ramps or elevators just needs to suck it up.

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Baloo Uriza wrote:

No, just ignorant.  There's ways to build objects that are more efficient than others, and good designers will keep texture sizes down and map them in ways that reduce the number of different textures an object requires, thus reducing the video RAM requirements.  Same with wireframes for raw mesh and scuplted prims.  Or choosing scupted or raw mesh prims over creating an object out of a jillion basic primatives.  You can have all the hardware in the world and still have lag if the people building the content are sufficiently ignorant/don't give a crap about other people. 


Hey, nice job elaborating on a given and insulting me in the process. That's cool. Of course a good build is less laggy than a bad one. And if you buy a bad one, be prepared to deal with it either with lag or powering through it with your hardware.

 


Baloo Uriza wrote:

If you want a walled garden where that's true, your XBOX wants some love.  


This is computers 101, and has nothing to do with consoles. If you want to run a 3D rendering platform, be it a game or design software, you need a computer that can do it.

Architects don't buy 200 dollar laptops then cry to AutoDesk when AutoCAD runs terrible, they get better hardware.

Come to SL though, and instead of getting better hardware, users come cry on the forums and expect everything to be dumbed down to their computer's level.

 


Baloo Uriza wrote:

Since when is this a game as opposed to a platform in and of itself?


Since calling it "software on a computer that renders a 3D space just like a computer game or CAD does" takes too much space.

 


Baloo Uriza wrote:
Sure, and stairs aren't problems for people with working legs, so hey, whoever needs ramps or elevators just needs to suck it up.


If you can't make it up stairs, don't rent a second floor apartment, stupid.

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This whole conversation has been very interesting for me. I don't remember any Arc Wars. However, what I am finding now is that various sites are reporting my script count and memory usage and telling me I am burdening their sim. However, I am only wearing what i think I need. I don't know how to do without my AO, and I don't know now to shop for one that gives me the best functional bang for my scripts. The person who created my hair is no longer in business and I can't find one that I like better, and i have no idea if that is the issue. I have tried on several occassions to keep removing things until I hit an acceptable level from a couple of resource usage counters and by the time I get down to something they like, I am wearing almost nothing except for my clothes. Once I get to that point, i don't really want to play any more. For me, SL is more than just a chat place, and my avatar is what makes the whole game fun.

BT

 

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Baloo Uriza wrote:


Medhue Simoni wrote:

Yeah, but..... there isn't a game ever made where the content was not optimized for the platform it is created on, except SL.

Since when is this a game as opposed to a platform in and of itself?

The only thing we can compare SL do is a game, as there is no other world like SL.

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Bhakti Mimulus wrote:

This whole conversation has been very interesting for me. I don't remember any Arc Wars. However, what I am finding now is that various sites are reporting my script count and memory usage and telling me I am burdening their sim. However, I am only wearing what i think I need. I don't know how to do without my AO, and I don't know now to shop for one that gives me the best functional bang for my scripts. The person who created my hair is no longer in business and I can't find one that I like better, and i have no idea if that is the issue. I have tried on several occassions to keep removing things until I hit an acceptable level from a couple of resource usage counters and by the time I get down to something they like, I am wearing almost nothing except for my clothes. Once I get to that point, i don't really want to play any more. For me, SL is more than just a chat place, and my avatar is what makes the whole game fun.

BT

 

Yep, and for now, things are going to be this way. With mesh here tho, it is very possible to have your whole avatar all done up and still be way under the limits. Plus, If the customers demand it, the merchants will have to consider these issues or earn much less. So this is as much an educational thing as it is a proactive thing. Mesh easily has the ability to get rid of a good portion of all the lag we see, if creators make things efficiently. As Baloo mentioned, texture are a huge part of the problem. and this is where mesh comes in big time. Just the amount of textures alone will be cut by the thousands compared to what we were dealing with a year ago. For the vast majority of mesh items created, they will require 1 texture for the whole mesh. Compare that to anything complex made with prims or sculpties.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:


Bhakti Mimulus wrote:

This whole conversation has been very interesting for me. I don't remember any Arc Wars. However, what I am finding now is that various sites are reporting my script count and memory usage and telling me I am burdening their sim. However, I am only wearing what i think I need. I don't know how to do without my AO, and I don't know now to shop for one that gives me the best functional bang for my scripts. The person who created my hair is no longer in business and I can't find one that I like better, and i have no idea if that is the issue. I have tried on several occassions to keep removing things until I hit an acceptable level from a couple of resource usage counters and by the time I get down to something they like, I am wearing almost nothing except for my clothes. Once I get to that point, i don't really want to play any more. For me, SL is more than just a chat place, and my avatar is what makes the whole game fun.

BT

 

Yep, and for now, things are going to be this way. With mesh here tho, it is very possible to have your whole avatar all done up and still be way under the limits. Plus, If the customers demand it, the merchants will have to consider these issues or earn much less. So this is as much an educational thing as it is a proactive thing. Mesh easily has the ability to get rid of a good portion of all the lag we see, if creators make things efficiently. As Baloo mentioned, texture are a huge part of the problem. and this is where mesh comes in big time. Just the amount of textures alone will be cut by the thousands compared to what we were dealing with a year ago. For the vast majority of mesh items created, they will require 1 texture for the whole mesh. Compare that to anything complex made with prims or sculpties.

Hey,

Thanks for the info. I am worried about mesh avatars though. They are not very modifiable, and they can't use our current clothes, and I have probably hundreds of outfits. I think skins will cause a similar problem and that is a very important part of SL.

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