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Aard Andel

age play

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Aard Andel wrote:

Wow, nice
ad hominem
argument against me personally. Too bad it conflicts with your J. S. Mill quote. Now can we get back to the question?

OK. What exactly is your issue with LLs restriction on sexual ageplay? Do you find it "unfair"? There's a solution to that. Cancel your account and go elsewhere. I don't think LL is going to change their policy to accomodate you any time in the near future.

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I did. And I told you what my impression was. You didn't deny it, either. That and the fact that you now won't answer a direct question speaks volumes.

Like I said... If you were expecting many tears to be shed, you're looking in the wrong place.

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Aard Andel wrote:

... then it's a business decision, not a moral one.

What?  Under market democracy there is absolutely no difference between a business decision and a moral decision.

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Okay, this seems to have run its course. I have been condemned by the holier-than-thou, the wowsers and bluestockings, which is about what I expected. To recap: I have no argument with LL's dictum that an avatar obviously made to look like a child should not appear in a sexual context. But It doesn't make any sense to me that I can safely roleplay an 18-year-old girl being raped by her father, but not a 17-year-old girl making tender love to her boyfriend; which is not, I repeat not, child pornography in any sense. It is also absurd that, as a verfified adult, I can be thrown out of an adult establishment for not meeting the owner's (not LL's) arbitrary height restriction. You can quote me all the absurd legalities you want, or in the case of one of you, make a personal attack on me based on my profile, but none of you has persuaded me that it is okay to allow depictions of incest, rape, bestiality, torture and death while banning "young love."


This bud of love, by summer's ripening breath,
May prove a beauteous flower when next we meet.
Good night, good night! as sweet repose and rest
Come to thy heart as that within my breast!

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You are being disingenous or are just an idiot.  In case you are the latter I'll put it as plain as i can.

In the state I live in, it is against the law to depict sex involving minors in any way, EVEN IF EVERYONE IN THE DEPICTION IS ACTUALLY AN ADULT AND/OR ITS A TOON.  Adult pornography itself is not.  Further it is against the law to provide a service where such depictions are shown.  Most if not all states have these laws and there are also federal laws against it.  SL could be forced to shut down completely and employees criminally prosecuted with long jail terms following.  SL is a US company and must follow US law.

So its not a moral decision, its not even a business decIsion, its a legal decision to keep LL's people out of jail and the service from being shut down.

You personal decisions and morals, or lack thereof,  give you no right to demand that someone commit a serious crime.

As far as you being told to leave venues, the people that pay the tiers set the rules.  They can boot you out, for no reason at all actually, even a public venue.  Until you pay tier on a venue you have no say over what an owner does or  does not do.  Your only choice is that if you want to go to an adult venue, you can change your avatar to look like and adult.

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Aard Andel wrote:

... none of you has persuaded me that it is okay to allow depictions of incest, rape, bestiality, torture and death while banning "young love."
by s

Take it up with LL.

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I'm age verified and I've been to adult sims where very adult content exists.  My avatar is 5' 2" (measured against a prim).  I've never been asked to leave.  I've interacted with others at these sims (in, at least, a somewhat adult way).........and never been questioned about my age. 

It's not the height of your avatar.  It's how you present your avatar.  How you chat.  Maturity does come across in text chat.

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I've been trying to figure out what your point was from the very beginning.........I think I've failed.

It seems you are trying to equate your moral values upon Linden Lab.  You seem to not care that there are legalities involved.......only what you think the moral stand should be.  You said we are all "holier than thous"........but who's talking about morals?  I think there's only one participant in the thread who's go that route....care to guess who?

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Exactly Peggy.  If the OP has been asked to leave, its not her height that is the problem.  I've never kicked anyone out due to their height..  I suspect that she was wearing a child avatar, maybe not a toddler, but one that looks like a minor.  In her profile she depicts herself as a minor too and makes it clear she RP's a teen prostitute. 

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Aard Andel wrote:

a 17-year-old girl making tender love to her boyfriend; which is not, I repeat not, child pornography in any sense.

age of consent in SL is 18

if you play a under 18 on SL doing it then your account is pretty much toast. doesnt matter how tender you think it is

is same on any online site. even pr0n sites. is the law that says must be 18, both in real age and depiction. even if age of consent in reals jurisdiction is 16 or even 14

if you think should be different then you will have to take it up with your lawmakers. dont think they going to support you tho. they got enough to worry about with actual rl teenagers already online without adding fake ones to their worries as well

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Aard Andel wrote:

They've made a moral decision for you, whether you like it or not.

They're complying with what appears to be US law and, as it happens, the law in the UK, where I live.   That's not an issue for me.   Other than that, they're saying it's "Your World, Your Imagination" and people can create and do pretty much what they want, with the only restriction that some things we have to do on A-rated land.  That's fine by me -- I'll decide for myself what sort of things I want to create and/or do, within the constraints of what's legal. 

Maybe I've misunderstood your point -- and  I'd be grateful if you could explain more clearly what it is you LL to do -- but I thought you were saying it was in some way immoral for LL to permit various forms of RP that you find distasteful and, since they've banned age-play, you want them to ban other things too.

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Aard Andel wrote:

Just curious ... why is LL so fixated on preventing (virtual) "age play" when it allows so many other (virtual) illegal activities, many of which are worse, e.g. rape, incest, bestiality, torture, snuff, etc.?

Romeo and Juliet would be banned in SL.

First and foremost, let me introduce you to my 10' pole. It's the sort of thing I always need to drag out for threads like this:

534846.jpg

Now, I don't know if you are serious or trolling, so I'll give you the serious answer.

In 2007, a Germal television program, Report Mainz, did an expose about sexual ageplay and the trading of first life pedophiIic images within Second Life. This led to the original rules regarding both activities. As to why they treat sexual ageplay (which for the context of your question and to clarify, is sepate from the first life pedophiIia mentioned above) different from the others is a combination of legal reasons (if memory serves, images of children having sex, even if they happen to be cartoons, etc., is against the law in some European countries) and a dash business sense (how would you like to be known as a user of "that 3D virtual world that allows sex with kids?"). While many of the other things you mentioned are illegal in first life, the virtual depiction of them may not be.

Now the more succinct answer.

Seriously? We've been down this path plenty before. No. Just no. It is banned in the Terms of Service of Second Life. The "why" is irrelevant. Don't do it. 

Oh, and Romeo and Juliet, if memory serves, did not have sexual congress center stage at the Globe Theater, so your argument doesn't quite stand up. 


Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

I applaud LL for their stance on age play.........a line has to be drawn somewhere and when it comes to children I'm 100% behind them.

 ^^

This

 

(and now I'mma take my 10' pole and head out of this mess. ITBL.)

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

I'm age verified and I've been to adult sims where very adult content exists.  My avatar is 5' 2" (measured against a prim).  I've never been asked to leave.  I've interacted with others at these sims (in, at least, a somewhat adult way).........and never been questioned about my age. 

It's not the height of your avatar.  It's how you present your avatar.  How you chat.  Maturity does come across in text chat.

Correct. An unknown avatar might get extra scrutiny, and some sims (maybe many) do have height limits as they're easier to enforce than asking people in person or looking at their behaviour, but presentation is much more important.

If you were to show up in a schoolgirl uniform wearing pink pigtails, running a child ao, and making silly childish gestures, you'd be kicked out by the first officer with proper authority to appear (and asked to leave by most regulars).

If that same avatar is wearing adult clothes, ao, hair, and talks like an adult, most people in adult sims couldn't care less (in M sims, they tend to be much more strict about such things, as the risk of getting banned after a griefer reports you for inappropriate content is much higher (the short avatar could be a griefer fishing for being allowed to ageplay just to get a sim closed down).

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Aard Andel wrote:

but not a 17-year-old girl making tender love to her boyfriend; which is not, I repeat not, child pornography in any sense

 

to respond to that i give you US Federal Law.

According to US law 18 USC 1466A

In response to Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition, Congress passed the PROTECT Act of 2003 (also dubbed the Amber Alert Law) and it was signed into law on April 30, 2003 by then president George W. Bush. The law enacted 18 U.S.C. § 1466A, which criminalizes material that has "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting", that "depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct and is "obscene" or "depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in ... sexual intercourse ... and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value".

 

By its own terms, the law does not make all simulated child pornography illegal, only that found to be obscene or lacking in serious value. And mere possession of said images is not a violation of the law unless it can be proven that they were transmitted through a common carrier, such as the mail or the internet, or transported across state lines. There is also an affirmative defense made for possession of no more than two images with "reasonable steps to destroy" the images or reporting and turning over the images to law enforcement.

 

I direct your attention to the bold text.. Since SL is accessed via the internet any sexual interaction between an adult and child av is indeed against the law. Since SL users must abide by LL rules and LL must abide by US laws any age-play is illegal.

 


Aard Andel wrote:

 It is also absurd that, as a verfified adult, I can be thrown out of an adult establishment for not meeting the owner's (not LL's) arbitrary height restriction.

 

My sim, my rules. i can toss your butt out for not being a furry, or female, robot, elf, dragon, or any other thing i want. deal with it.

as someone used to say "time to put on your big girl panties."

Aslo i noticed that you are a Dirty Lolita... and complaining about RP. Have fun with that.

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Wait...those things are worse than child rape? FYI- child sex age play depicts children in sex acts. Children are incapable of consent. Therefore, age play depicts scenes of child rape.

IMO, the worst crime that can be comitted.

That and, child pron is illegal in the US, where LL operates from. Depictions of other sex acts are not illegal.

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<<They've made a moral decision for you, whether you like it or not>>

No sweetie. They have made a legal decision that reflects the laws in the US and protects them AND you, whether you like it or not.

Do you know that you can go to jail for performing an act of child sex age play? It's called child pornography and it happens to be illegal.

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<<It is also absurd that, as a verfified adult, I can be thrown out of an adult establishment for not meeting the owner's (not LL's) arbitrary height restriction>>

Club owners have the right to throw you off of their land for any reason. They pay for the land, they make the rules. Deal with it.

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I think the age-play rules are just fine as they are.

Personally, I'd throw you off my land as soon as I looked at your 1st life pic. 

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Roseysun Galicia wrote:

LL's
is in keeping with the U.S. Federal statute/law that outlaws
all depictions
of "sexual age play" a.k.a. child porn.  The U.S. Supreme Court has upheld the definition.

LL's policy is here:

The Federal Statute "Obscene visual representations of the sexual abuse of children" is here:

More information is here: 
  Specifically the sections: 
  • 1466A - Obscene visual representations of the sexual abuse of children

  • Section 2252A
  • Further Developments


The thing that makes it so hypocritical is that there's nothing to prevent sexual age play from going on in private sims, which I'm sure it does all the time. It only gets ppl banned if someone sees it & reports it. So why have a policy ~or laws for that matter~ which are unenforcable? What's the point .. besides maybe thinking that it might cover corporate hineys in case of a lawsuit? Prolly wouldn't even do that .. judges & juries tend to see thru policies designed solely to give the appearance of 'due diligence' w/out offering any real remedy for the perceived problem. I think that the OP is perfectly justified in pointing out the futility & hypocracy of LL policy when it comes to sexual age play.

Jeanne

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Aard Andel wrote:

Okay, this seems to have run its course. I have been condemned by the holier-than-thou, the wowsers and bluestockings, which is about what I expected. To recap: I have no argument with LL's dictum that an avatar obviously made to look like a child should not appear in a sexual context. But It doesn't make any sense to me that I can safely roleplay an 18-year-old girl being raped by her father, but not a 17-year-old girl making tender love to her boyfriend; which is not, I repeat not, child pornography in any sense. It is also absurd that, as a verfified adult, I can be thrown out of an adult establishment for not meeting the owner's (not LL's) arbitrary height restriction. You can quote me all the absurd legalities you want, or in the case of one of you, make a personal attack on me based on my profile, but none of you has persuaded me that it is okay to allow depictions of incest, rape, bestiality, torture and death while banning "young love."

This bud of love, by summer's ripening breath,

May prove a beauteous flower when next we meet.

Good night, good night! as sweet repose and rest

Come to thy heart as that within my breast!

LOL Yup! It's absurd alrite .. Are you just noticing for the 1st time how absurd the culture that pervades our lives is? The absurdity of it all is what makes it funny!!

Jeanne

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