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Boudicca Littlebird

Is goodwill running thin?

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I have noticed that the goodwill between some and the lindens is very thin, is there two groups here, one that come to SL to be entertained and another group that come here to do business, what I have noticed in these threads is that those that run business are very stressed and on their last legs as regards goodwill, whereas the ones here for just entertainment can see nothing wrong and dismiss the other group out of hand, am I wrong or is this a trend?

 

From my own point of view I am here for business, I find the lindens aloft and out of touch, like they judge all people by how much money they can get from them, directly or indirectly, I have also found they use some residents as spy's just to ask questions while they listen (do I give those a disjointed view on life, lol), the thing about people focused on money is that they are very backward in all other areas, but that is my view do any others share it?

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I have been in SL for a very long time, and have run a business, for over 6 years in SL. The trend has always been, those that can pay and are willing to, for services or products, and the free loaders. The trend for the last few years has been, that SL is a "free" source of entertainment like TV. While i provide small rentals for incredibly cheap prices, we have to constantly beg for rent to be paid on time, or for a tenant to even let us know they have moved on.  We have and do take care of our long time customers, and have made sure they can keep their homes, even when RL has dealt them some financial woes.

 The ones in SL i feel the worse for, are club owners, that have to throw money at residents to even get them in a club. I am sorry, but if i have to pay someone to come and fun, forget it. I have seen full stage entertainment in SL walk away with less than 1K in tips with over 50 ppl attending the concerts or venues.  Entertainment needs to organize in SL and make everyone pay to enjoy being entertained in SL. There is really no reason for traffic any longer since the MarketPlace has put most malls out of business. At least entertainers are willing to work for their money, which is more than i can say for 80% of our residents, that hoard around freebie chairs like moths to a light bulb. Don't get me wrong, i enjoy an occasional freebie from a store i have spent money in and stay in their group, its a nice perk for loyal shoppers.

So yes goodwill is running thin, of course the entertained that don't tip (freeloaders)  are very happy and content in SL, while the entertainers and creators are pulling their hair out trying to make a few bucks to pay for rent and other things they need to put into their businesses to keep the doors open.

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i've been in sl going on 6 years  here soon..

it pretty much seems the same to me..infact it has been worse at some points..especially when the CEO M was around..a lot of the LL doesn't care anymore came from His era..

Rodvik is at least putting an effort into trying to fix that...

we'll see if he will be able to..

but for the most part  i think you  will always it where you can't please everyone..and i don't think it is just business owners and those that don't own businesses..

i think if you look at just busienss owners..you have some that are fine and some that are unhappy..

the same would be for none business owners..

still the ones that are unhappy..they are still here..so there has to be something they like about the place hehehe

 

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cinda Hoodoo wrote:

 The ones in SL i feel the worse for, are club owners, that have to throw money at residents to even get them in a club. I am sorry, but if i have to pay someone to come and fun, forget it. I have seen full stage entertainment in SL walk away with less than 1K in tips with over 50 ppl attending the concerts or venues.  Entertainment needs to organize in SL and make everyone pay to enjoy being entertained in SL. There is really no reason for traffic any longer since the MarketPlace has put most malls out of business. At least entertainers are willing to work for their money, which is more than i can say for 80% of our residents, that hoard around freebie chairs like moths to a light bulb. Don't get me wrong, i enjoy an occasional freebie from a store i have spent money in and stay in their group, its a nice perk for loyal shoppers.

I DJ at a club that has been operating since 2006.  I remember sploders and contests.  While we still hold events periodically where L$ and other prizes are awarded, we long ago stopped doing regular contests.  The club is surrounded by a shopping mall so patrons come to the mall to shop and/or to the club to be entertained and have fun.  If you can create an environment where people want to be and enjoy, they will come without the gimmick of a contest.

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Boudicca Littlebird wrote:

I have noticed that the goodwill between some and the lindens is very thin, is there two groups here, one that come to SL to be entertained and another group that come here to do business, what I have noticed in these threads is that those that run business are very stressed
and on their last legs as regards goodwill
,
whereas the ones here for just entertainment can see nothing wrong and dismiss the other group out of hand, am I wrong or is this a trend?

 

From my own point of view I am here for business, I find the lindens aloft and out of touch, like they judge all people by how much money they can get from them, directly or indirectly, I have also found they use some residents as spy's just to ask questions while they listen (do I give those a disjointed view on life, lol), the thing about people focused on money is that they are very backward in all other areas, but that is my view do any others share it?

Nearly 100% of the sellers in SL with whom I have had any experience have wonderful customer service and aim to satisfy even the nastiest customers.  I do not know what you mean by the bolded statement but I have not experienced this and I have been in SL over five years.

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

still the ones that are unhappy..they are still here..so there has to be something they like about the place hehehe

 

Yeah, it's called addiction...

:)

 

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I would say both of your two grroups are on thin ice with the lindens.

While the Lindens made some MAJOR improvements to the service over the last year with updates to viewer 3 (and thus why those not on viewer 3 tend to have seen almost none of these) and to the sims and servers...

They have also grown very distant - stopping almost all of their inworld contact, almost all of their blog contact, being very short and terse in the few jiiras they communicate in, making sporadic comments in random places NOT within their brand (like third party forums or plurk, twitter and facebook), reducing tech support to almost nothing, and so on...

Some of the new features have not gone over smoothly - and due to lack of communication; when this has happened it has come in waves of sudden shock rather than people being braced and prepared. The linden's typical response is something like "but at 3:30 am, a random linden posted on IRC that something was up." and we're like "Um, IRC has not been something 99% of the net uses anymore since about 1997..."

(Well maybe not IRC... but they couldn't hide their comments to us frm us any better than that...)

 

 

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Triple Peccable wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

still the ones that are unhappy..they are still here..so there has to be something they like about the place hehehe

 

Yeah, it's called addiction...

:)

 

that wears off after a couple of years..then it all you hehehe

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You know it has always been my feelings that anyone that is on the payroll of Linden Labs, should be required to maintain a regular avi, that either has a business or a home as a regular joe blow resident. To play in the game, to create, or try to, to observe thru a residents eyes what the problems are. Hands on in SL with the Lindens has become non existent. So they wonder why the Phoenix/Firestorm viewer is WAYYYY more popular than theirs, well for one they keep open channels of communication with volunteers mind you, in 2 group chats that run around the clock. What is even more amazing is they listen to the residents, help them past hurdles, find bugs fast, and have to fight Linden Labs tooth and nail for any changes they want to make, because lord knows no one can be better than the LL viewer in SL.

Now any company with an ounce of common sense, could figure this out, unless you're so stove up in your ivory tower, you will just let them eat cake and be happy.

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cinda Hoodoo wrote:

You know it has always been my feelings that anyone that is on the payroll of Linden Labs, should be required to maintain a regular avi, that either has a business or a home as a regular joe blow resident. To play in the game, to create, or try to, to observe thru a residents eyes what the problems are. Hands on in SL with the Lindens has become non existent. So they wonder why the Phoenix/Firestorm viewer is WAYYYY more popular than theirs, well for one they keep open channels of communication with volunteers mind you, in 2 group chats that run around the clock. What is even more amazing is they listen to the residents, help them past hurdles, find bugs fast, and have to fight Linden Labs tooth and nail for any changes they want to make, because lord knows no one can be better than the LL viewer in SL.

Now any company with an ounce of common sense, could figure this out, unless you're so stove up in your ivory tower, you will just let them eat cake and be happy.

OZ and Jessica had a really good interview on a lot of the things you are touching on..

they have their reasons why they won't let 3rd party viewers run wild in sl..

i think OZ has really been a breath of fresh air with finally giving answers that don't beat around the bush like so much LL information in the past..

you may have seen this already..but if you haven't. it's a really good interview..

also for anyone that may be reading that hasn't..

they go over a good bit of area =)

http://treet.tv/shows/specials/episodes/firestorm-07mar12

 

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I have watched several of their interviews Ceka, they are good, am going to watch this one too. Do you remember all the flap when Jessica and Blue, and a bunch of others were laid off from LL? I think they lost their most devoted and creative staff during that time. I feel awed that they pulled together for this game and stayed, we are the better for it.

Thanks for posting the URL for it !

 

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Yes, i think goodwill is running thin towards the lindens from business owners, and is it any surprise?  The Lindens have all but stopped communicating with the business community.  They seem in fact to be working against it, unless you are one of their favored few.

 

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cinda Hoodoo wrote:

You know it has always been my feelings that anyone that is on the payroll of Linden Labs, should be required to maintain a regular avi, that either has a business or a home as a regular joe blow resident. 

Certainly everyone is custmer service and marketing should have linden accounts that are required to be 'inworld' during their work hours - even if not active. In fact for the marketeers, 90% of the time those 'toons' would not be active. But they need to 'eat the dogfood' to know how to sell it. Marketers should be split - 1/4 having a linden home, 1/4 a mainland lot, 1/4 estate, 1/4 no home. Different perspectives on the team. I've worked on a marketing team so I know this is -NOT- how you split duties - but they don't need to be -playing- SL, just knowing it. You can still have your team split up in terms of email, SEO, conferences/campus walks/office tours, strategic, etc...

Half of tech support / customer service should be handling issues by talking to people INWORLD, not through live chat. Live Chat should end up reserved for people who can't login or can't login without notable issues. If people are logged in and moving around - inworld support should TP -to- them.

They should have staff of about 10-30 people who are customer service / community managers that stay inworld and visit hotspots -LOOKING- for residents to interract with. I give such a wide range because I'm not really sure how many it would take. Start with 10, and hire more if the project seems to need more.

They should have 3 full time bloggers, that are paid to write 2 blogs -PER BUSINESS DAY-. Two of them about inworld, and one about out of world technical. OR... 1 inworld, 1 marketplace, 1 technical. But I think you really want it 2 inworld, and the third split between technical and marketplace.

2 BLOGS -EACH-, PER BUSINESS DAY. No less. 500 word minimum each. Maybe 1000.

- So there should be 6 blog entries getting posted on the secondlife.com website EVERY BUSINESS DAY.

- There's so much content in SL, you could do 100s of blogs a day. And in fact, residents do just that... so the excuse of 'not enough to write about' is not valid.

And residents are -NOT- your marketing or blogging team. Interests are different. What we highlight in our blogs is -NOT- what you want highlighted for a successful branding message. If you rely on us to do your marketing and blogging, its a recipe for failure.

 

- If you run a community based platform, and I don't care what the Lindens think they have, that is what it IS, you need this kind of involvement to succeed. Right now they have been treading the waters of profitable for years - but that's not a stable position to be in...

I've written about how SL needs to embrace being a game, and a lot of people misunderstand me when I write that and think I'm calling it a game. I'M NOT. I'm saying it needs to embrace that business model, and sell itself in that community - because that's the stable future. That's the growing industry. That's where adults go now, even for serious activity.

That's the world of folks that will accept SL.

And the above advice about community involvement with your own platform, is how successful gaming companies do it.

- Even small time players maintain many of these elements, staffing abilities dependant.

 

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cinda Hoodoo wrote:

I have watched several of their interviews Ceka, they are good, am going to watch this one too. Do you remember all the flap when Jessica and Blue, and a bunch of others were laid off from LL? I think they lost their most devoted and creative staff during that time. I feel awed that they pulled together for this game and stayed, we are the better for it.

Thanks for posting the URL for it !

 

ya that was back in the whole emerald mess with that DLL file..

they only disallowed the viewers that had that in it..they still allowed older versions..

they really didn't lose access to sl or where a new viewer of theirs was not allowed..

after they regrouped..the main thing was them at  getting back on the LL tpv list..

they would not let them back on if certain things were not met and certain members stayed on the staff..

ya i remember that time period..

i had the audio of  when Jessica took over and they did that interview with treet i believe..

a lot of them came back..i remember only coming back to the new viewer myself after i heard lordgreggreg was back..

when i first heard he left is when i jumped off emerald..

i remember always feeling strange about that  version..mainly because every time i would have to log in two times..then to hear there was something up with it..i was like..ahh i knew something was up with that double logging stuff lol

not that i think i was ever at risk or anything..if anything was to go wrong it wouldn't be hard to find out who did it ..i mean they are well known to LL hehehe

but i use phoenix firestorm mostly now since they switch to the new V3 interface..

i really didn't use them too much when they were the V1 viewer..it just never ran well for me..and i didn't really need all that stuff anyways..when FS came out in pre alpha i was all over it..loved it..

then when mesh came out i waited for them to come out with a solid version since the first one was kind of rushed..i believe i was on catznip and the main viewer as well..when phoenix FS went V3..i've been there ever since..it runs great for me..

i think they not only came back  from that old bad period..i think they overtook it..

i mean mesh really never took off until the tpvs started to switch over..it went from like 25% to 75% pretty fast then..

i'm just glad to see OZ in there now and wanting to work with the tpvs..i know a lot may not feel it..but i have a good feeling about certain things in sl..

we may not ever be at the 2009 peak agan..but i think it's still gonna get a lot cooler in time..mesh with get better and more accepted and games will take off and path finding will bring lots of cool things..

all guessing on my part..but i'm gonna give the new CEO and his team the benefit of doubt for now like they asked to erase a bad history..i know it will take some time..

it worked for phoenix..so i'm gonna give Rodvick inc.the same shot as i gave them..heck knows i blamed M for a lot of things..it wouldn't be fair to pin them on Rodvik..

not after he gave me that awesome BEARPONY!!!\o/

one of his first given away..i haz a special..

lol

we were having fun over at slu as to who got the first and the best bearpobny one day..that was a blast lol

 

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cinda Hoodoo wrote:

You know it has always been my feelings that anyone that is on the payroll of Linden Labs, should be required to maintain a regular avi, that either has a business or a home as a regular joe blow resident. To play in the game, to create, or try to, to observe thru a residents eyes what the problems are. Hands on in SL with the Lindens has become non existent. So they wonder why the Phoenix/Firestorm viewer is WAYYYY more popular than theirs, well for one they keep open channels of communication with volunteers mind you, in 2 group chats that run around the clock. What is even more amazing is they listen to the residents, help them past hurdles, find bugs fast, and have to fight Linden Labs tooth and nail for any changes they want to make, because lord knows no one can be better than the LL viewer in SL.

Now any company with an ounce of common sense, could figure this out, unless you're so stove up in your ivory tower, you will just let them eat cake and be happy.

I'm trying to imagine what it would be like on "group chats that run around the clock" with Lindens, rather than with TPV volunteers. Even in the Firestorm group chats, there's occasional hostility. If chat support were instead provided by people who actually got paid for their efforts, the level of slighted entitlement would be much worse.

Frankly, my impression is that goodwill is indeed running thin -- because SL users have become bitchy on a hair trigger. I'm not sure if this is an acquired response to lack of support when problems are stated civilly, or if it's the result of some selection process by which anybody with a passably pleasant personality is systematically driven from Second Life.

(Also, I'm not sure we can tell whether or not all Lindens are already required to have and use a regular, non-Linden account. For all we know, they may already walk amongst us--and as with the general population, some share of them may be lost to vampirism, Gor, or obsessive breedable husbandry.)

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You could be right Qie, but the actions of the Lindens do not show this, nor bring it to proof. It appears they are more interested in the newer player than the old ones, and gem "hunts" on "special" sims for premium accounts is well..what can i say other than very out of touch. The $L seems to be in decline, business's that used to be hot are long gone, yes replaced by others that will be here until they are botted to death.  The game has pretty much gone to sex and breedables, i feel no sense of community any longer.

There are bright spots, occasionally you find a cute club where everyone is having fun and chatting, omg chatting ! Then the usual drama ensues, or something they can't get past financially or something outrageous the Linden's refuse to get involved in, and its gone. I will say..if you call LL, customer service personnel have ALWAYS gone out of their way to help me.

Maybe they are just giving us a free hand in managing it ourselves, and hoping for the best...

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The $L seems to be in decline

Although a number of statistics are indisputably in decline, the L$ hasn't been among them. See this chart from Tyche Shepherd's superb gridsurvey website. (Note that a lower exchange rate, L$ to US$, reflects an increase in the value of the L$ relative to the US$. It takes more US$s to buy the same number of L$s as a few years ago.)

I do very much sense a kind of "community vaccuum" in SL. It may be because the Lindens have intentionally pulled back, I gather with the intent of encouraging residents to form their own communities. Certainly, not all community-building efforts by the Lindens were successful--sometimes they were meddling, and some of the traditional stuff may be obsolete now--but I'm not so sure there's guaranteed success in leaving customers to their own devices with the hope that vital communities will emerge, just because SL is "a social platform."

Maybe it's just a temporary gap during a transition. Still, I really miss what Robin brought to SL, now so many years ago.

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Lindens *are* inworld during their working hours and several of them have visited the club where I DJ and stayed around (at least, their avatar was there...they may have been multitasking).  You can reach many Lindens on the 'feed'. (my.secondlife.com). As I have had homes on mainland for the past couple of years, I see Lindens pop around doing various things.

There are far more of us than there are of them so it is no wonder if they seem invisible at times. 

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I've been in SL for about 7 years now, and I can confidently say I've been extremely patient with them, but it's been increasingly difficult to maintain that level of patience when here I am, 7 years later, and SL is still lacking simple, basic features for content creation.

 I don't necessarily think that every Linden needs to live, eat and breath SL, but they do need more people on staff, in decision making positions, who do. They are also entirely too focused on programmers. I've yet to meet a Linden who knows the first thing about content creation beyond tooling around with prims in SL. Many high level Lindens, many of whome are still at SL in decision making positions, have at one time or another derided and dismissed absolutely essential features that SL lacks.

 I can name a handful of things LL could do over the course of a day, from programming all the way through QA testing, which would make sims four times larger. Wouldn't that be nice? Would you like four times as much land? It's easier than you think.

 I can name several key issues that result in low framerates, issues that LL themselves can alleviate.

 I can name other issues that are the source of most of the "lag" you experience in SL on a daily basis. Solving these issues isn't actually that difficult but would require a bit of work on LL's end. 

 I can name a few simple tools that every other piece of content creation software in existance, from Notepad to Photoshop and Maya, that SL lacks, which would make building in SL a hundred times easier. I'm talking basic stuff like "select all" or "save state". Nothing fancy.

 LL has had all these issues brought to their attention, all of the solutions to these issues offered to them on a silver platter, yet for 12 years they've mostly ignored the problems.

 

 So yeah, patience is wearing thin.

 

On the other hand, Rodvik came in and said a lot of the right things right off the bat. He's delivered on several issues since coming on the scene. I think that's given LL a considerable amount of breathing room with their irate userbase, but at the same time they've gotten more tight lipped which makes people worry. They'll need to consistently deliver more improvements as time goes on because they've barely scratched the surface and the customers have already been waiting a long time.

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

it pretty much seems the same to me..infact it has been worse at some points..especially when the CEO M was around..a lot of the LL doesn't care anymore came from His era..

Rodvik is at least putting an effort into trying to fix that...
 

He is? How long has he been here now? A year or more? It doesn't taker anywhere near that long to show users that they matter to the company as users and not just as dollars. In his time, the marketplace has been very badly screwed up and the Lindens who deal with it, and who did communicate, became silent. In his time, the way that LL communicates to the users has deteriorated from very bad to much worse. I don't see any evidence that Rodvik is trying to show the users that LL cares about them. All he's doing is showing that LL cares about LL's profits, and that's all.

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Venus Petrov wrote:


Boudicca Littlebird wrote:

I have noticed that the goodwill between some and the lindens is very thin, is there two groups here, one that come to SL to be entertained and another group that come here to do business, what I have noticed in these threads is that those that run business are very stressed
and on their last legs as regards goodwill
,
whereas the ones here for just entertainment can see nothing wrong and dismiss the other group out of hand, am I wrong or is this a trend?

 

From my own point of view I am here for business, I find the lindens aloft and out of touch, like they judge all people by how much money they can get from them, directly or indirectly, I have also found they use some residents as spy's just to ask questions while they listen (do I give those a disjointed view on life, lol), the thing about people focused on money is that they are very backward in all other areas, but that is my view do any others share it?

Nearly 100% of the sellers in SL with whom I have had any experience have wonderful customer service and aim to satisfy even the nastiest customers.  I do not know what you mean by the bolded statement but I have not experienced this and I have been in SL over five years.

I think the OP means goodwill towards LL. If s/he does, then I have no goodwill towards LL. It faded away years ago - entirely due to LL themselves. In fact I have ill-will towards the company.

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Oh I think all know that I refer to LL, have you heard of the art of "twisting it to suit me".

 

I think you have made it clear about your position on goodwill, it was your comments that made me ask the question, I just wanted to know if others felt like you.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

it pretty much seems the same to me..infact it has been worse at some points..especially when the CEO M was around..a lot of the LL doesn't care anymore came from His era..

Rodvik is at least putting an effort into trying to fix that...
 

He is? How long has he been here now? A year or more? It doesn't taker anywhere near that long to show users that they matter to the company as users and not just as dollars. In his time, the marketplace has been very badly screwed up and the Lindens who deal with it, and who did communicate, became silent. In his time, the way that LL communicates to the users has deteriorated from very bad to much worse. I don't see any evidence that Rodvik is trying to show the users that LL cares about them. All he's doing is showing that LL cares about LL's profits, and that's all.

he was announced as CEO on dec,23 2010..

they don't have to show they care..they just have to deliver..thats one thing that has always baffled me about sl..everyone thinking  they have to care..for years people have been talking about how LL doesn't care..now it's all something new?

rodvik is giving way more of a damn about users than M sure did..

as i see it from the things i look at it's on a better track than when M was here..

and ya it does take more than a year for some things to kick into gear..and it hasn't been a year since a lot of those things were put in..

and the market ..it's been running smooth and fast deliveries since they put those folders in place...

haven't had a faild delivery in a good long while now..

and rodviks mistake he made was showing he was gonna be a people person and show up in the forums and open up his blog and twitter and be hands on..now that he had to stop it because of the massive volume..people think he doesn't care anymore..

i'll stick to what i said and give them the benefit of doubt until I feel like taking it back..

Tell me honestly you believe rodvik is more about Money than M was?

 

 

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I think that LL is only about money - M, Rodvik, whoever. Of course, businesses are about money but most businesses also cater for their customers, if only because ssatisfying customers more profitable, whereas LL turns a blind eye and caters only for the company. That's what I mean when I use the word "care". I sometimes put it another way - LL doesn't give a damn about their customers as customers. They only give a damn about getting as much as they can from them.

You said that "as long as it works...". It doesn't work. It used to work but it hasn't worked for a very long time and Rodvik shows no signs of making it work. The system (SL itself) largely works, of course, but there's more to running a company well than that. Customer service only manages to work sometimes. Also, keeping the customer informed hardly works at all. It's things like that that don't work, and they are very important to the whole

I'm pleased that you haven't had any problems with the marketplace for some time, but it's not many weeks since the whole thing was really b.ggered, and it stayed that way for quite some time. Switching over to direct delivery caused it. Some time ago, those who were dealing with marketplace problems posted about them in the forum, but that came to a stop, and nobody was telling LL's paying customers anything, and the customers had to grin and bear it.

On the whole, LL does not work as a normal company with paying customers. It hasn't worked like one for years, and there are no signs that I'm aware of that anything is about to change. Rodvik has been here for about 1½ years and things between LL and customers have got worse in that time, as others have also pointed out in this thread. It's not that they aren't aware of the customer dissatisfaction. It's that they don't care enough about customers to do anything about it. Rodvik may be marginally successful in improving profits for LL but he's absolutely no good in the customer department and, imo, intentionally keeping the customers dissatisfied is failure on his part.

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