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JeanneAnne wrote:

>> Why would it be wrong for me to expect someone to respect my right when I am out romantic dancing at a place dedicated to that not to be attacked by a fire breathing dragon?<<

Why would it be wrong for a fire breathing dragon to expect someone to respect its right to attack people? After all, isn't that what fire breathing dragons
do
??

Jeanne

At what point does it become 'uncool?' 

For instance what if it decided to chase me relentlessly all over the Grid ?

ETA.  The thing is we can talk about Individual Rights, but what happens when those Individual Rights are in conflict?

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Keli Kyrie wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

I try to simply take things in stride and be respectful of others.

I do have my Martian avatar that I goof off with occasionally but I also recognize that there can be a point where enough is enough.

As far as your SL experience being a reflection on your RL I don't see a way to separate them.  It is still "you" sitting behind the keyboard.

But really what your questions make me think of is my best and oldest friend in SL.  We have stood by each other for over five years now.  She is a very warm and caring person.  She is a Second Life artist.  Her art work is stunning!  But it is also dark and moody.  So while I marvel at the emotion she can capture and evoke with her art work, it is also difficult for me to look at. Maybe the best way I can express it is that when I see here art I can also feel her pain.

Thank you Perrie is it always good to see your thoughtful replies. While I can see that it is very hard for a lot of people to separate their SL from their RL I think it is worth reminding for others it is not. For them it is like going down to the arcade, putting a quarter in the slot, and using up their three lives. When the game is over they just start again sometimes with a new alt. For them it is hard to see why everyone is taking things so serious, to them it is just a game after all. btw thank you so much for sharing your story about your friend it has given me much to think about.
:)

Let's approach this from the point of view that Second Life really IS "just a game." However, there aren't any formalized rules or roles to this game - you play it however you want to.  And HOW you play it is a function of the person who's behind the keyboard - in a setting like this, how could it be anything else?

There are people on SL who maintain they're playing "roles", even when they're posting in fora and on feeds. Where did the roles come from, though? I don't believe any of us here has an agent calling us saying, "Hey, good news - you can pay rent for a couple of months! I got you a gig as the villian in a toothpaste commercial forum feed."  We play the roles we choose to play and ultimately WANT to play. And what we want to do comes from who we ARE, sometimes even more strongly than what we ACTUALLY do in RL where we temper our behavior to follow laws and conventions.

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

Let's approach this from the point of view that Second Life really IS "just a game." However, there aren't any formalized rules or roles to this game - you play it however you want to.  And HOW you play it is a function of the person who's behind the keyboard - in a setting like this, how could it be anything else?

There are people on SL who maintain they're playing "roles", even when they're posting in fora and on feeds. Where did the roles come from, though? I don't believe any of us here has an agent calling us saying, "Hey, good news - you can pay rent for a couple of months! I got you a gig as the villian in a
toothpaste commercial
forum feed."  We play the roles we choose to play and ultimately WANT to play. And what we want to do comes from who we ARE, sometimes even more strongly than what we ACTUALLY do in RL where we temper our behavior to follow laws and conventions.

 

I think you are exactly right. Well said!

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ROB34466IIIa wrote:

/me looks from his comfy seat on his wall.

/me smiles.

care_001.jpg

You know .. this was hanging on my wall long before this thread. Given to me by a good friend.

 

I' ve been and I still am happy to pass it to almost anyone along in SL who wants one.

There are yet those I will not give it to myself.

 

That' s SL(F).

 

 

ETA : Original object by Carmsie Melodie.

 

 

I think the sentiment of your sign is wonderful and many people will see the beautiful in it. But there are people in SL that have no emotional investment in what they call a game. To them it is just a game, by you insisting that "Feelings are Real for All People in SL" you are taking the fun of SL from them. They may attack you for this, but when you look at it you attacked first by implying the they are lesser people than yourself because they don't have RL Feelings for the game they are playing. You can't react very well to people that are different than you if you don't see that they are different. Just because some does not have RL Feelings for SL does not mean they are a lesser Human Being, they just have different needs, wants, and desires.

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Games!  Is SL a zero-sum game or non-zero-sum game?

Imo, it is non-zero-sum ergo it is not pareto optimal.  However, if someone wants to make it pareto optimal, then I will try my hardest to win; just like they are trying.

 

  

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Perrie Juran wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

>> Why would it be wrong for me to expect someone to respect my right when I am out romantic dancing at a place dedicated to that not to be attacked by a fire breathing dragon?<<

Why would it be wrong for a fire breathing dragon to expect someone to respect its right to attack people? After all, isn't that what fire breathing dragons
do
??

Jeanne

At what point does it become 'uncool?' 

For instance what if it decided to chase me relentlessly all over the Grid ?

ETA.  The thing is we can talk about Individual Rights, but what happens when those Individual Rights are in conflict?

Those are very good questions Perrie, & the answers, of course, vary from person to person. What's cool to one person may very well be totally uncool to the next. I might think that being chased by a fire breathing dragon all over the grid is fun whereas you might get sickuv it pretty quick. I guess there'd be no law or politics or social sciences or any of that kinda stuff if Individual Rights never conflicted. This thread is interesting cuz seems to me like it's been a collective effort to sort conflicts between Individual Rights out ..

Jeanne

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Tari Landar wrote:

There's a difference between standing up to a bully, and trying to put one in it's place, imo. Sometimes it might seem like a grand idea, in theory, but once brought to fruition-not so much.


Long ago in the previous GD forum, we had a long discussion about dealing with toxic personalities. I quite agree that trying to put a bully in his/her place is a grand and foolish idea. I wish I could remember the name of the person who observed that, in such situations, we wait for the opportunity to deliver that one perfect zinger that will put the bully in his/her place. She thought that was an arrogance we can't afford, and I agree.

At the end of the day, it's about setting standards for yourself and living up to them.

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>>Let's approach this from the point of view that Second Life really IS "just a game." However, there aren't any formalized rules or roles to this game -<<

I think that the formalized rules are determined by grid architexture & software. The newbie enters the game & must rather quickly learn how SL works. They learn well & thrive or learn just enuf to function in the limited way they see fit or they fail to learn how things work, get frustrated & leave. The latter outcome seems the most common. Seems to me that SL has far more 'losers' who leave than 'winners' who stick. Or do I have that backwards?

>>We play the roles we choose to play and ultimately WANT to play.<<

Do we? Or are those roles wholly determined by our heredity & environment?

>>And what we want to do comes from who we ARE, sometimes even more strongly than what we ACTUALLY do in RL where we temper our behavior to follow laws and conventions.<<

So our real lives are the roles we play & our SL avatars better reflect who we 'really' are? Even if our avatar is a fire breathing dragon? Could be! for all I know ..

Jeanne

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Keli Kyrie wrote:

Not at all. It does not need to be that hard. If we all made one improvemnet in how we treat eachother the world would be a better place tomorrow. It can just be somrthing as simple as smiling at someone and telling them good afternoon.


And if you smile and say good afternoon while that person is publically verbally abusing someone? There's a time to frown as well.

I have seen people in real life in very verbally abusing situations find peace again by just such an act, but often times it takes more then one person smiling to make it work. For example you and your friend come across a couple having a very verbally abusive conversation, what do you do? You could call the cops but they might take a half an hour to get there and the couple could be gone by then. You could join in the fight and start verbally abusing the person you think is wrong in the situation, sure that might help. Or you can take care of what is happening in that moment in time and try to defuse the situation. You can smile at them, make a joke, do some unexpectedly nice for them. Once the argument is defuse you can take the girl aside and talk to her about how she is dealing with her relationship with this man. Your friend can take the man aside and talk to him about how he is letting the stress of his work environment get to him and how he is acting that out on his wife. This example may work or it may not work but how will you ever know if you never try to talk to people?

I don't know about you but when I see everyone ganging up on someone calling them EVIL, especially if THAT PERSON HAS DONE SOMETHING WRONG, ...well how can I say this... (do you really know when it is time to throw rocks at someone?)





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JeanneAnne wrote:

>>Let's approach this from the point of view that Second Life really IS "just a game." However, there aren't any formalized rules or roles to this game -<<

I think that the formalized rules are determined by grid architexture & software. The newbie enters the game & must rather quickly how SL works. They learn well & thrive or learn just enuf to function in the limited way they see fit or they fail to learn how things work, get frustrated & leave. The latter outcome seems the most common. Seems to me that SL has far more 'losers' who leave than 'winners' who stick. Or do I have that backwards?

>>We play the roles we choose to play and ultimately WANT to play.<<

Do we? Or are those roles wholly determined by our heredity & environment?

>>And what we want to do comes from who we ARE, sometimes even more strongly than what we ACTUALLY do in RL where we temper our behavior to follow laws and conventions.<<

So our real lives are the roles we play & our SL avatars better reflect who we 'really' are? Even if our avatar is a fire breathing dragon? Could be! for all I know ..

Jeanne

Once you acknowledge the conceit that the fire breathing dragon is able to type and is absent a script, it becomes difficult to deny that the character of the actor shines through.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

>>Let's approach this from the point of view that Second Life really IS "just a game." However, there aren't any formalized rules or roles to this game -<<

I think that the formalized rules are determined by grid architexture & software. The newbie enters the game & must rather quickly how SL works. They learn well & thrive or learn just enuf to function in the limited way they see fit or they fail to learn how things work, get frustrated & leave. The latter outcome seems the most common. Seems to me that SL has far more 'losers' who leave than 'winners' who stick. Or do I have that backwards?

>>We play the roles we choose to play and ultimately WANT to play.<<

Do we? Or are those roles wholly determined by our heredity & environment?

>>And what we want to do comes from who we ARE, sometimes even more strongly than what we ACTUALLY do in RL where we temper our behavior to follow laws and conventions.<<

So our real lives are the roles we play & our SL avatars better reflect who we 'really' are? Even if our avatar is a fire breathing dragon? Could be! for all I know ..

Jeanne

Once you acknowledge the conceit that the fire breathing dragon is able to type and is absent a script, it becomes difficult to deny that the character of the actor shines through.

I think you may be right Madelaine. I like the idea that I actually may be a fire breathing dragon in Vanaheimr, playing the role of a woman sitting at a computer in the meat world, playing the role of a fire breathing dragon in SL. I think that this may be a profound psychological breakthru for me !! Thanks! :catwink:

Jeanne

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Lol, isn't Jesus the son of the guy that is going to burn people's souls in all of eternity for not being on His side?

btw, I love Jesus

No.  He is the Son of the Guy that says you have a choice on how to live your life.  He does not judge you, you judge yourself.

PS And I am an athiest.  ETA But I read the book.

 

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Keli Kyrie wrote:
 Just because some does not have RL Feelings for SL does not mean they are a lesser Human Being, they just have different needs, wants, and desires.


Someone playing / doing SL without any form of emotion at all ? I'm attacking those that "don't have RL Feelings for the game they are playing" ?

What kind of player / resident is that ? Is one of those even human ? :robotindifferent:

 

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Keli Kyrie wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Keli Kyrie wrote:

Not at all. It does not need to be that hard. If we all made one improvemnet in how we treat eachother the world would be a better place tomorrow. It can just be somrthing as simple as smiling at someone and telling them good afternoon.


And if you smile and say good afternoon while that person is publically verbally abusing someone? There's a time to frown as well.

I have seen people in real life in very verbally abusing situations find peace again by just such an act, but often times it takes more then one person smiling to make it work. For example you and your friend come across a couple having a very verbally abusive conversation, what do you do? You could call the cops but they might take a half an hour to get there and the couple could be gone by then. You could join in the fight and start verbally abusing the person you think is wrong in the situation, sure that might help. Or you can take care of what is happening in that moment in time and try to defuse the situation. You can smile at them, make a joke, do some unexpectedly nice for them. Once the argument is defuse you can take the girl aside and talk to her about how she is dealing with her relationship with this man. Your friend can take the man aside and talk to him about how he is letting the stress of his work environment get to him and how he is acting that out on his wife. This example may work or it may not work but how will you ever know if you never try to talk to people?

I don't know about you but when I see everyone ganging up on someone calling them EVIL, especially if THAT PERSON HAS DONE SOMETHING WRONG, ...well how can I say this... (do you really know when it is time to throw rocks at someone?)





"(do you really know when it is time to throw rocks at someone?)"

I never advocated throwing rocks. You've known me for well over a year, in both public and private, during which we've had conversations that I hope would have shown you that I've used all the civil methods you prescribe. If your statement was directed at me, I believe it's misplaced.

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Great and well said, can agree totally that it is not the av be it dragon or tiny or a prim with lips but the mental attitude and character that av shows day to day. An avatar has no personality, that comes from the RL person behind it. I have met some pretty nice dragons and even at talking shoe that I would sit at the same table with and some I don’t wish to be on the same continent as them.

 

This question is more to me veiled speech in quest of an answer to someone who is just a little butt hurt. The very idea that someone in SL can control another is in itself dumb, if one feels controlled turn the big switch. Now, that someone in SL can harass to the point of making another person’s life miserable in SL for no other reason than sick joy that is a different matter.

 

There seems to be three things overlooked in this post and they are the guides to “your” SL adventure. 1. Apply the TOS as the yardstick to conduct for your SL. 2. Read the Community Standards and apply. 3. Do what you want, as you wish within the context of the two previous statements.

 

SL is no different than RL in that we tend to friend and travel with people who are like minded and can enjoy the same things. If there are small mind types that feel harassment is an acceptable part of their SL and persist to attack a group or specific members well WTF. People are either one personality or another (as a rule) so if you wish to be on the green bus don’t **bleep** when the red bus has no room.

 

It’s simple make a choice and live with it. I know of people that have played both ways for over a year before one group deciding enough was enough.

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Lol, isn't Jesus the son of the guy that is going to burn people's souls in all of eternity for not being on His side?

btw, I love Jesus

You know what they say: "Power corrupts & absolute power corrupts absolutely." When you're God Almighty you don't have to answer to anyone & so are free to be as mean as you feel like being.

Jeanne

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Some time ago Keli Kyrie wrote (emphasis hers):

I KNOW MOST WON'T LIKE THIS
... 
but we need trolls... just like we need Lurkers, Helpers, and Goofballs.
 No one is more important than anyone else. If everyone was a Helper how boring would that be? To me it was all the Wild and Diverse Personalities that made the old GD so great and this party is a place for all of them to come together in one place.

And now Keli Kyrie writes (emphasis mine):

Hi Cali,

  
I am not saying I condone trolls
or bullies what I am questioning is how we react to people that see things differently from the way we do. The fact is some people see SL as a game and treat “the characters” in it as a game. Do we let these people freak us out on a daily basis, do we let them “ruin” our SL just because they see things differently then the rest of us? If you go to the stove once and grab the cast iron skillet and get burned that is one thing, but if you do it day after day... Come on grab a pot holder, make sure the stove is off, adapt to the situation. Even if someone carries the skillet into your room and says it is safe don't trust it.... those skillets can stay hot for a long time. Test it. We don't have to keep getting hurt over and over again. If you are going to handle bees wear thick gloves don't go in there with your heart on your sleeve.

Keli, before I read this as self contradiction, can you explain it?

And why should we expect the victims of bullies to grow thick skins, yet not hold the bullies accountable for their actions? It seems to me you are being hypocritcal.

Okay so a bully writes on a forum your singing sucks. What to you do? How do you punish them? Do you cry about it and attack them back? Or do you just roll with the punches and let those bullies make you a millionaire? Nearly 32,000,000 hits on youtube who is laughing at the bullies now. I am saying you can't execute people just because you don't like what the write but you can choose how you react.

 

Even Katy Perry is her friend now because she didn't let the bullies get her down. Life is more about how you react to situations then what happens to you.

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Keli Kyrie wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Some time ago Keli Kyrie wrote (emphasis hers):

I KNOW MOST WON'T LIKE THIS
... 
but we need trolls... just like we need Lurkers, Helpers, and Goofballs.
 No one is more important than anyone else. If everyone was a Helper how boring would that be? To me it was all the Wild and Diverse Personalities that made the old GD so great and this party is a place for all of them to come together in one place.

And now Keli Kyrie writes (emphasis mine):

Hi Cali,

  
I am not saying I condone trolls
or bullies what I am questioning is how we react to people that see things differently from the way we do. The fact is some people see SL as a game and treat “the characters” in it as a game. Do we let these people freak us out on a daily basis, do we let them “ruin” our SL just because they see things differently then the rest of us? If you go to the stove once and grab the cast iron skillet and get burned that is one thing, but if you do it day after day... Come on grab a pot holder, make sure the stove is off, adapt to the situation. Even if someone carries the skillet into your room and says it is safe don't trust it.... those skillets can stay hot for a long time. Test it. We don't have to keep getting hurt over and over again. If you are going to handle bees wear thick gloves don't go in there with your heart on your sleeve.

Keli, before I read this as self contradiction, can you explain it?

And why should we expect the victims of bullies to grow thick skins, yet not hold the bullies accountable for their actions? It seems to me you are being hypocritcal.

Okay so a bully writes on a forum your singing sucks. What to you do? How do you punish them? Do you cry about it and attack them back? Or do you just roll with the punches and let those bullies make you a millionaire? Nearly 32,000,000 hits on youtube who is laughing at the bullies now. I am saying you can't execute people just because you don't like what the write but you can choose how you react.

 

Even Katy Perry is her friend now because she didn't let the bullies get her down.
Life is more about how you react to situations then what happens to you.


I'm going to stand firm here, Keli. I asked for an explanation for your apparent self contradiction and I didn't get it. I am not arguing against helping people to grow thicker skins. I want to know what your argument is for our needing trolls and/or bullies.

If you don't wish to engage me further on this, say so. I am getting tired of what appears to me to be either over arching pre-suppositions on your part (I have never suggested we execute anybody), or your inability to see any perspective but your own in the middle of arguing that we should welcome everybody's perspective.

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JeanneAnne wrote:
 

>>I think that the formalized rules are determined by grid architexture & software. The newbie enters the game & must rather quickly learn how SL works. They learn well & thrive or learn just enuf to function in the limited way they see fit or they fail to learn how things work, get frustrated & leave. The latter outcome seems the most common. Seems to me that SL has far more 'losers' who leave than 'winners' who stick. Or do I have that backwards?<<

Yes, but the rules aren't FORMALIZED, just as in real life there's no book (as far as I know) saying LEVEL 1 - BABY: Crawl from LIVING ROOM to DINING ROOM. Optionally, eat RAISIN ON FLOOR for one Snack Point - roll 2d6 to determine Diarrhea Level.

>>Do we? Or are those roles wholly determined by our heredity & environment?<<

I note that you wrote this post as Liberal Arts Class Jeanne instead of Sk8rgurl Jeanne. This was a "choice" as you had more than one option. Whether or not what we choose is predetermined by our upbringing is an interesting question but not really on-topic here.

>>So our real lives are the roles we play & our SL avatars better reflect who we 'really' are? Even if our avatar is a fire breathing dragon?<<

Bingo

 

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