Does second life need to be governed?

[JeanneAnne]

>>Studies have shown that 83.7% of all academics who write about Second Life spend little to no time actually using the platform, and therefore their statistics are pure poppycock.<<

Boellstorff spent a couple years inworld doing ethnographic research in & on SL. He used inworld interviews & surveys for gathering info. Since the surveys werent administered randomly he didnt do any stats on the results

Who else besides Boellstorff has done serious research on SL? Prolly others have but im not aware of it. If you could turn me on2 some references .. id prolly read em .. Thanks!

Jeanne

[nt274]

Jeanne 

A good starting point is Smyth's (2009 paper: 

'Back to the Future: In Search of an Understanding of Crime and Punishment in Second Life'. 

(http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1416840)

I have read Boellstorff's work and have also done participant observation myself - I would love for my dissertation to be a collaborative piece of work and I think instead of student's thinking they can study a community or people they can actually learn best from working with a community - as after all Second Life residents have been playing the game a lot longer than I have! 

[nt274]

Jeanne 

A good starting point is Smyth's Paper: Smyth, Sara M. , Back to the Future: In Search of an Understanding of Crime and Punishment in Second Life(June 9, 2009). Rutgers University Computer & Technology Law Journal, 2009

I have read Boellstorff's work and have also done participant observation myself - I would love for my dissertation to be a collaborative piece of work and I think instead of student's thinking they can study a community or people they can actually learn best from working with a community - as after all Second Life residents have been playing the game a lot longer than I have! 

[nt274]

Ami, 

Thanks for your response! A lot of food for thought! I think you are right, my inital research ideas will definitely change as I get to know more about second life. I think that the link between real life and second life jurisdictions is one that will play a big part in my research. And yes I agree with you, there is alot of regulation already in place. My  research is not aimed at increasing the goverance of second life. It is about questioning the measures that are already there as well? I mean is there already too much regulation? 

Nicola.

 

[nt274]

Second Life is too highly policed already - yes I see your point and is something I will consider in my research! Thanks

[Sy Beck]

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JeanneAnne wrote:

No, Second Life doesn't need to be "governed."

Yes it does

No it dont

The human spirit cries out for freedom.

And laws to protect that freedom

Laws arent necessary, they're authoritarian impositions on freedom

Real Life is already far to regulated & unfree

Maybe, depends on perspective, time and place

Perspective, time & place dont matter .. RL has been far too regulated & unfree @ least since the dawn of agriculture

We go into SL in order to exercise complete freedom.

An over exaggeration as you signed a ToS to do so.

So? I do what I feel like in SL .. usually what I do conforms to the ToS but I dont really care if it does or not. LL can ban me if they want. I dont really care

There is no "crime" in SL

Yes there is.

No there isnt.

 ...there is nothing to steal or vandalize

Yes there is

No there isnt

Anyone can Role Play being a cop or dom or master or whatever .. & everyone else can simply ignore such control freaks.  

Yay a true fact!

No, its an opinion. You have trubble distinguishing fact from opinion, dont you?

Jeanne

---

No.

You have problems distinguishing human nature from an idealised text book fantasy.  You talk a game, but you're like everybody else here, you obey all the rules everyday because for the most part you enjoy the protection and rewards from them and the protection it affords you from people who really "don't obey rules" and also because you're too chicken s h i t and/or lazy to do anything about it.  You're part of the system now and every day you readily partake in it, enjoying all the benefits it gives you while looking down with faux pity on those who do the same as you.  

You're not a rebel, in reality you quietly acquiesced long ago to the point now where the only revolution left in you is a daily foray onto a tucked away internet forum to assert irrational and hypocritical thinking.  What once may have been an idealist rebel is now only capable of non-sensical trolling.  It is though amusing to read, like getting to the comic strips in the newspapers after all the adults have told us the important stuff and we need to laugh at the absurd.

 

P.S. I really must stop quoting you, the spellchecker took nearly 5 minutes to go through your post.

P.P.S. Don't expect a reply, I'm off out to spend some of my hard earned bucks oppressing a chef to cook for me for financial reward.  Who do you think is need of less oppression, the Italians or the Chinese?  It's the Chinese isn't it?  Italian it is then, yum yum!

P.P.P.S To the OP I'll be in Prezzo's at 6.30 if you want a head to head interview :smileywink:

[JeanneAnne]

---

nt274 wrote:

Jeanne 

A good starting point is Smyth's (2009 paper: 

'Back to the Future: In Search of an Understanding of Crime and Punishment in 

Second

 Life'. 

(

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1416840

)

 

---

Thanks nt274

I could only read the abstract tho ..

Not sure I would agree that  ".. Second Life .. has provided new opportunities for crime because of its global reach, its relatively low cost, and the near perfect anonymity that it provides users." tho .. 

I guess that it depends on how "crime" is defined. If "crime" is anything thats against the law, then I guess that gambling & kiddie pron & IP "theft" & DOS hacks* .. are "crimes" .. but these are arbitrary things that dont necessarily hurt anyone .. I define crime as something that actually causes harm .. Nothing that happens in SL harms anyone .. No1 is ever killed or injured .. no real child is raped or abused .. "theft" is only of code .. not of physical objects .. if it happens @ all .. & the worst a hack does is forces ppl off their butts & in2 scary RL for awhile .. Since theres no way to actually cause harm to other in SL i dont feel like any crimes are ever committed there & hence theres no need for laws or rules .. Others will disagree uv course .. Thing is tho .. I dont want to rule or control or police any1 & i dont appreciate any attempts 2 rule, control or police me .. So leave me alone in SL please !!

Jeanne

*btw .. is the rumor true that yesterdays trubble was caused by a DOS attack? Thats the rumor iv seen going around .. Someone in FB said that SL & WoW were both down due to hacks .. Eny1 know if its true ???

[nt274]

I would like to thank everyone for their contributions to this forum! I think it has generated a really fruitful discussion and I'm thrilled. I am still only in the stages of designing my project. However at a later date (i.e.. June or July 2012) I will start think about finding willing participants for interviewing. Everyone who has posted seems to have a genuine interest in the governance of second life - be that an anti-governance stance! If you would like to be part of this project I'd love to beable to contact you at a later date when I have explored second life further, done more reading and finalised my methods. So let me know if you would be interested :-) Thank you again! 

[Ziggy21 Slade]

I would like to ask the OP, why do so many students choose Second Life as a place to conduct their studies?, these forums see a post like yours at least once a week.

Is it just that it seems a bit less like study if it involves a computer game (sigh!, yes I know it's not a game) or is there some other reason why this particular set of internet users is selected for so much scrutiny.

It doesn't sound like you have spent much time here, thats ok, we all have to start somehwere, but I would say that Second Life really takes a bit of getting into, you cant sort of pop in and take a poke around and walk away with much of an impression of the life of a resident.

I dont believe we need any further governance, as others have said, there is plenty of that already, although I think some of what we have could be more effective, well, maybe not in practicality, so lets just say it would be nice if some things were more effective, for instance, someone who copybots should be banned for good, but realistically there is no way of achieving this.

I agree with Ann, I think suggestions of the sort of crimes that are commited here are grossly exaggerated, I don't think you could get away with money laundering for long, and criminals now have Bit coins so they are unlikely to waste time here. There have been instances of under age avatars having sex etc, but I think this is pretty much a thing of the past, I know some people who documented the activities of certain people who were involved in this both here in SL and in their own open sim set up, the evidence was forwarded to the UK police who took action and closed them down. IP theft however is very, very, common. 

[JeanneAnne]

>>You have problems distinguishing human nature from an idealised text book fantasy. <<

Like you have the inside skinny on "human nature." :catlol:

>>..you obey all the rules everyday..<<

No i dont .. i smoke weed & speed & run red lites .. i may do worse stuff that i dont care to mention in a public forum too .. How would you know? You dont know me or know what i do .. im not scared of >>..people who really "don't obey rules" .. << either .. i like outlaws .. the ppl i dont like are small-minded control freaks who get all pissy in defense uv a status quo that oppresses not only them but the entire biosphere .. You may think that youre the rational mature adult who needs to explain "human nature" & how things work in the "real world" to the likes of idealistic immature ltl me .. but i only see you as someone thoroly indoctrinated w/ the memeplexes of control you uncritically absorbed from those who serve their own purposes ~not yours~ by having you believe them .. 

Jeanne

[Perrie Juran]

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

---

nt274 wrote:

Jeanne 

A good starting point is Smyth's (2009 paper: 

'Back to the Future: In Search of an Understanding of Crime and Punishment in 

Second

 Life'. 

(

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1416840

)

 

---

Thanks nt274

I could only read the abstract tho ..

Not sure I would agree that  ".. Second Life ..

has provided new opportunities for crime because of its global reach, its relatively low cost, and the near perfect anonymity that it provides users." tho .. 

I guess that it depends on how "crime" is defined. If "crime" is anything thats against the law, then I guess that gambling & kiddie pron & IP "theft" & DOS hacks* .. are "crimes" .. but these are arbitrary things that dont necessarily hurt anyone .. I define crime as something that actually causes harm .. Nothing that happens in SL harms anyone .. No1 is ever killed or injured .. no real child is raped or abused ..

"theft" is only of code .. not of physical objects ..

if it happens @ all .. & the worst a hack does is forces ppl off their butts & in2 scary RL for awhile .. Since theres no way to actually cause harm to other in SL i dont feel like any crimes are ever committed there & hence theres no need for laws or rules .. Others will disagree uv course .. Thing is tho .. I dont want to rule or control or police any1 & i dont appreciate any attempts 2 rule, control or police me .. So leave me alone in SL please !!

Jeanne

*btw .. is the rumor true that yesterdays trubble was caused by a DOS attack? Thats the rumor iv seen going around .. Someone in FB said that SL & WoW were both down due to hacks .. Eny1 know if its true ???

---

My bolding, ""theft" is only of code .. not of physical objects .."

Aren't both obtained or produced by real life effort?  Real Life labour, whether it be physical or mental?  Are you saying that because the work was only "mental" there should be no reward and / or no protection against the theft of that work?  Is the person who laboured to produce that code not entitled to the same protections that say a shopkeeper has against shoplifters?

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

you paid $25.00 for a book about SL? My local library doesnt have it, neither do the surrounding ones. seems a shame that a paperback book is $25.

 

[JeanneAnne]

>> (sigh!, yes I know it's not a game) <<

I say that SL IS a game .. Uv course, it all depends on how you define "game" .. Many would insist that games must have rules & goals .. To my mind thats just 1 subset of games .. SL can legitimately be considered an open ended game .. but whether you consider it a game, a metagame, gaming platform, virtual world, social medium or whatever .. it still is what it is .. & these categories or definitions arent mutually exclusive

Jeanne

[JeanneAnne]

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

you paid $25.00 for a book about SL? My local library doesnt have it, neither do the surrounding ones. seems a shame that a paperback book is $25.

 

---

I ordered it from Amazon .. dont really remember what it cost @ the time .. It sells for $20.34 rite now tho ..

When I buy books they end up in my moms library ..

Jeanne

[Perrie Juran]

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

you paid $25.00 for a book about SL? My local library doesnt have it, neither do the surrounding ones. seems a shame that a paperback book is $25.

 

---

Your Library doesn't have inter-library loan?  I have waited several weeks to obtain books that way but will do it unless it is something I really want to own for future reading.

[Enigma Cassavetes]

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

---

nt274 wrote:

Jeanne 

A good starting point is Smyth's (2009 paper: 

'Back to the Future: In Search of an Understanding of Crime and Punishment in 

Second

 Life'. 

(

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1416840

)

 

---

Thanks nt274

I could only read the abstract tho ..

Not sure I would agree that  ".. Second Life ..

has provided new opportunities for crime because of its global reach, its relatively low cost, and the near perfect anonymity that it provides users." tho .. 

I guess that it depends on how "crime" is defined. If "crime" is anything thats against the law, then I guess that gambling &

kiddie pron

& IP "theft" & DOS hacks* .. are "crimes" .

. but these are arbitrary things that dont necessarily hurt anyone .. I define crime as something that actually causes harm .

. Nothing that happens in SL harms anyone .. No1 is ever killed or injured .. no real child is raped or abused .. "theft" is only of code .. not of physical objects .. if it happens @ all .. & the worst a hack does is forces ppl off their butts & in2 scary RL for awhile .. Since theres no way to actually cause harm to other in SL i dont feel like any crimes are ever committed there & hence theres no need for laws or rules .. Others will disagree uv course .. Thing is tho .. I dont want to rule or control or police any1 & i dont appreciate any attempts 2 rule, control or police me .. So leave me alone in SL please !!

Jeanne

*btw .. is the rumor true that yesterdays trubble was caused by a DOS attack? Thats the rumor iv seen going around .. Someone in FB said that SL & WoW were both down due to hacks .. Eny1 know if its true ???

---

You seriously saying child porn isnt a crime and causes no harm?  What is your experiance or facts for saying such a thing?

[JeanneAnne]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

---

My bolding, "

"theft" is only of code .. not of physical objects .."

Aren't both obtained or produced by real life effort?  Real Life labour, whether it be physical or mental?  Are you saying that because the work was only "mental" there should be no reward and / or no protection against the theft of that work?  Is the person who laboured to produce that code not entitled to the same protections that say a shopkeeper has against shoplifters?

 

---

The way i feela bout it is that code ~like music~ is the product of the human imagination & should be ~like water & air & sunshine~ absolutely free .. Products of the human imagination belong to us all .. Since it's ours to begin w/ how can it be "stolen" ?? The best poets & musicians & artists of all sorts have always shared their work freely .. Once greed sets in the 'product' ~whatever it is~ becomes cheapened .. becomes devalued by the very attempt to place value on it .. Good code like good art of every sort is priceless .. & its vain to try & place a price on the priceless .. The commodification of our common inheritance is wrong .. It's an artifact of the pathological socio-economic system that oppresses us .. It's our duty to resist & subvert this sociopathic socio-economic system in the attempt to get out from under it .. If you have talent for making stuff .. give the stuff you make away .. In turn, take what you need ~& no more~ from others .. Reciprocate .. Share & share alike .. Renounce greed .. Be happy

Jeanne

[JeanneAnne]

---

Enigma Cassavetes wrote:

---

---

You seriously saying child porn isnt a crime and causes no harm?  What is your experiance or facts for saying such a thing?

---

No. Please don't misconstue me .. Of course real child porn causes immense harm & is a true crime if there ever was one !!

What I'm saying is that SLex w/ or between child avatars in SL doesnt constitute real child porn. Those kiddie avatars are cartoons, not real children, & most likely theyre run by adults not children. Even if an underage person lies & gains access to an A rated region & has his or her avvie engage in SLex .. no physical harm to that child is occurring .. Psychological harm? Thats debatable .. Does pedophilic adults indulging in virtual pedophilic acts inspire them to do the same in RL? Thats debatable too .. Personally i think that in some instances it might .. In any case such activity is detestable to me .. but do i have the right to impose my values on others in a virtual game where no real children are being harmed? Well .. whether or not i hava "right" to do so i dont intend to

Jeanne

[Heart Brimmer]

It may not constitute RL porn or maybe it does, you see two people on the screen getting it on, depends on the person behind the avatar but, doesn't matter,IT IS against the TOS and anyone that does have sex with a child avatar WILL have their account taken away, period. 

 

Edited to add something.

[Rybus Zuhal]

SL could be monitored by law enforcement, it would be funny, because people already try that, you have those second life justice league who act like the super crime fighters of second life, reporting everyone. (They don't get anything done)

 There are others who basically "play" the role as law enforcer, but anyone can simply report someone in the end, just some of these guys had been like pets for lindens.

 

However these people have no real power, this is afterall a game with a lot of freedom, and though like any other game, you have moderators. It is still just a game, just that it has the freedom to make it whatever game you want it to be.

When you go into a sim you kind of are on someone else's property, and he can do whatever he wants to you, and likely will have rules he wants everyone to follow in his sim, if you don't, you might get kicked out, reported, or well just handled by the people in their own way.

 

I mean when I was law enforcement for an RP sim, I just simply put everyone in jail, packed everyone in there, it doesn't really stop them from just leaving or teleporting away(But don't tell them that)

 

The most crime you get are people who duplicate, steal, and basically grief, and you can't stop that, because banning them will probably just have them come back and do twice as much damage, which is usually the the case, you can just keep making alternate accounts and coming back.

As far as a game goes, this game has sex, drugs, and basically everything, but none of it is actually illegal because it is just a game and though some things are against the rules of second life, like having people roleplay children and pedophiles, and other things (the reporting system is unbiased, griefers report people too to ruin their fun)

People break the rules all the time, but if no one cares to report them nothing happens, just consider secondlife the wild west of the internet.

[JeanneAnne]

---

Heart Brimmer wrote:

It may not constitute RL porn or maybe it does, you see two people on the screen getting it on, depends on the person behind the avatar but, doesn't matter,

IT IS against the TOS and anyone that does have sex with a child avatar WILL have their account taken away, period. 

 

Edited to add something.

---

If 2 ppl are sitting @ their computers running child avatars who have slex in a skyhouse somewhere .. how is LL going to even knowa bout it? Saying that they WILL have their accounts taken away only applies if someone reports them

Jeanne

[Drake1 Nightfire]

they do.. its out for the next 4 months.

i was just very confused as most paperbacks are like 5-8 bucks.

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

As I said in a prior thread...

Under federal law (18 U.S.C. §2256), child pornography1 is defined as any visual depiction, including any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture, whether made or produced by electronic, mechanical, or other means, of sexually explicit conduct, where  

• the production of the visual depiction involves the use of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; or
• the visual depiction is a digital image, computer image, or computer-generated image that is, or is indistinguishable from, that of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; or
• the visual depiction has been created, adapted, or modified to appear that an identifiable minor is engaging in sexually explicit conduct.  

Federal law (18 U.S.C. §1466A) also criminalizes knowingly producing, distributing, receiving, or possessing with intent to distribute, a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting, that

• depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct and is obscene, or
• depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, **bleep**-genital, or oral-**bleep**, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex and such depiction lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.

So it does indeed constitute real child porn. According to US Federal Law.

[Perrie Juran]

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

---

My bolding, "

"theft" is only of code .. not of physical objects .."

Aren't both obtained or produced by real life effort?  Real Life labour, whether it be physical or mental?  Are you saying that because the work was only "mental" there should be no reward and / or no protection against the theft of that work?  Is the person who laboured to produce that code not entitled to the same protections that say a shopkeeper has against shoplifters?

 

---

The way i feela bout it is that code ~like music~ is the product of the human imagination & should be ~like water & air & sunshine~ absolutely free .. Products of the human imagination belong to us all .. Since it's ours to begin w/ how can it be "stolen" ?? The best poets & musicians & artists of all sorts have always shared their work freely .. Once greed sets in the 'product' ~whatever it is~ becomes cheapened .. becomes devalued by the very attempt to place value on it .. Good code like good art of every sort is priceless .. & its vain to try & place a price on the priceless .. The commodification of our common inheritance is wrong .. It's an artifact of the pathological socio-economic system that oppresses us .. It's our duty to resist & subvert this sociopathic socio-economic system in the attempt to get out from under it .. If you have talent for making stuff .. give the stuff you make away .. In turn, take what you need ~& no more~ from others .. Reciprocate .. Share & share alike .. Renounce greed .. Be happy

Jeanne

---

". If you have talent for making stuff .. give the stuff you make away .. In turn, take what you need ~& no more~ from others .. Reciprocate .. Share & share alike .. Renounce greed .. Be happy "

 

So last week when the person who "needed" my bicycle went on my back porch and rode off on it with out asking or telling me it was OK?   And when I discovered it was missing I must have been wrong about thinking I needed to ride it and was even more wrong for not being happy about this person who obviously then must have needed it more than me for taking it?

Maybe I need your computer, which is the fruit of someone's intellectual processes more than you.......

In RL some of my best friends are professional singer-songwriters.  Do you really have any comprehension of how much work it is for them?  The many hours of work that can go into honing that one line in a song or that one riff on the  guitar that makes your heart sing?  What will you do when they walk in your front door and just help themselves to the food in your refrigerator with out asking you?

Have you ever watched a musician sweat while they performed?  Do you realize that it is work?

Or do you keep your front door locked?

I've been reading your posts for a while now and have to say the diarrhea that is running out of your ears is mind boggling.

Anarchy is the wolf in sheep's clothes disguising itself as freedom while it devours your liberties.

You are no better than the thief who stole my bicycle.

 

[JeanneAnne]

I like the idea of bicycles being fungible .. Just take the nearest one .. Leave it for the next person when youre thru w/ it .. Your problem was that you considered one particular bicycle to be "yours" .. so that when someone else needed it they "stole" it .. Why not just let that person have that one .. & you take the next one that comes along when you need it? I think that some cities in euroville or somewhere are doing this ..

>>Maybe I need your computer, which is the fruit of someone's intellectual processes more than you.......<<

Well .. come on over then .. youre free to use it .. Actually it isnt even "mine" .. its an old one my brother assembled .. altho he'll never want it back .. I share it w/ every1 who lives in the house .. & guests

>>.. singer-songwriters.  Do you really have any comprehension of how much work it is..<<

"If it aint fun it aint rock&roll" If your friends consider music making "work" mebbe they oughta do something theyd consider fun .. instead

>>Have you ever watched a musician sweat while they performed?  Do you realize that it is work?<<

in intimate venues theres no need to get all worked up .. a lotuv that sweating is due to being under intense lighting .. thats what happens when musical performances become commodified .. touring & performing becomes drudgery .. you make my point for me !! LoL  A good drummer tho .. is an aerobic athlete .. yeah ther gonna sweat kickin them cans !!

>>Or do you keep your front door locked?<<

No

>>I've been reading your posts for a while now and have to say the diarrhea that is running out of your ears is mind boggling.<<

Doesnt surprise me that you feel that way Perrie .. Its just 2 be expected uv the hive-minded thoroly inculcated w/ sociopathic capitalist ideology .. You were prolly intelligent enuf to have resisted your socialization .. but its too late now .. At some level you instinctively realize that your attitudes & opinions have been programmed .. so you feel compelled 2 vehemently defend the submission uv your thot process to the control of others .. your self-esteem depends on it .. You can find affirmation in numbers too .. Most ppl are as mind constrained as you are

>>Anarchy is the wolf in sheep's clothes disguising itself as freedom while it devours your liberties.<<

It's -archy .. in all its forms .. that devours liberty .. the absence of -archy IS freedom .. You have it exactly backwards .. just like in 1984 .. propaganda is truth .. war is peace .. slavery is freedom .. The pathological memes that have parasitized your mind hav turned your reason 180^o around backwards

>>You are no better than the thief who stole my bicycle.<<

LoL If you need a bicycle thers an old 1 in the garage you can have .. feel free !!

Jeanne