Mass banning from commercial land without no reason. Some thing good we should encurage in SL?

[Mac Shoreman]

"The key is not to confuse 'privately owned' and 'publicly owned' property."

For your and others information. Most western democracies have laws that prohibit owners of stores and other "public" places like restaurants and cinemas from denying people entry for no reason. Race, family, friends, religion and that kind of stuff are in these democratic countries not valid reasons to not allow people to enter a store, restaurant or cinema. That stores and malls do this any how does not make it OK and by the law.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I'm sorry this happened to you. I too have been banned from places I've never been simply for being a rival owner or associated with a rival, or for really no reason at all.  And your right that it has no place in SL.  We are all supposed to be adults here (with the exception of some teens) and should have left this type of junior high drama long ago.  Unfortunately other than contacting the owner, and trying to get them to change their mind, there isn't anything much that can be done.  But what goes around comes around and in the long run they only hurt themselves.

Private Land is private land, even when it is commercial.  The owner can decide who they want there and who they don't.  Personally I don't want LL dictating to me who can go there and who can't or anything else about a sim I pay big money for.  Its a slippery slope to allow them to do it even once. 

[Rival Destiny]

But that's just it ... you aren't talking about publicly owned land not allowing you, the public, to enter.

You are talking about land that is NOT public.  It is PRIVATELY owned, and the owners are allowing people to enter.  Like your home in real life - you can call it whatever you want, but it is still privately owned and only you can dictate who enters.

[Mac Shoreman]

"You are talking about land that is NOT public.  It is PRIVATELY owned, and the owners are allowing people to enter. "

No I am not talking about "by the law here" I am stating my opinion about a sad behaviour I hoped not to face in Second Life. What ever the law states about right and wrong and what the TOS states is all together one thing. What I think is a sucky way to do things in SL as a market place owner is another. They can lean back on TOS or the Laws in Uganda, but in MY OPINION it does not make it right. THAT is what I say.

[Mac Shoreman]

I do totally agree.

"Private Land is private land, even when it is commercial.  The owner can decide who they want there and who they don't.  Personally I don't want LL dictating to me who can go there and who can't or anything else about a sim I pay big money for.  Its a slippery slope to allow them to do it even once. "

This is soo true but if people just take **bleep** when landowners in commercial sims behave bad just they because they can without saying anything, nothing is going to change never ever. If the written law does not help or do any good, bringing attention to bad things might make people think and prevent it from happening.

[161488303349]

i went to your inworld shop. is a few people on your own banlist

is possible you now caught up in a tit-for-tat with an associate of one of the names banned from your place

[Mac Shoreman]

"But that's just it ... you aren't talking about publicly owned land not allowing you, the public, to enter."

All stores, cinemas or restaurants in Germany, UK, France or any other democracy in the west world with laws forbidding owners of stores, cinemas or restaurants to randomly stop people from entry based on religion, politics, skincolor or what ever are private owned venues. Your rhetoric parallel to the real world (if a democratic contry in the west) falls flat.

SL is SL and the thing still is, that the behaviour of group banning people for no good reason is just **bleep**! Law, no law, TOS, no TOS. Just common sense.

[Mac Shoreman]

I ban people that HAVE done some thing bad... not BEFORE they do anything or BEFORE i know who they are.

Just plain stupid comment.

 

[Rival Destiny]

Well if it's any consolation, SL is not RL & it is a luxury not a necessity.

If this were somehow impeding your basic human rights or breaking a law, then there would most definitely be a reason to complain.

But what you are saying, is that you and anyone else, should be able to dictate what another person does with their private property.  And that, IMO, is a double standard.

 

[Mac Shoreman]

"is possible you now caught up in a tit-for-tat with an associate of one of the names banned from your place"

I once more say. I have never ever meet them people and I have never ever been on any of their lands or any thing. No connection what so ever and pleas... Read first.

[Rival Destiny]

---

Mac Shoreman wrote:

"But that's just it ... you aren't talking about publicly owned land not allowing you, the public, to enter."

All stores, cinemas or restaurants in Germany, UK, France or any other democracy in the west world with laws forbidding owners of stores, cinemas or restaurants to randomly stop people from entry based on religion, politics, skincolor or what ever are private owned venues. Your r

hetoric

parallel to the real world (if a democratic contry in the west) falls flat.

SL is SL and the thing still is, that the behaviour of group banning people for no good reason is just **bleep**! Law, no law, TOS, no TOS. Just common sense.

---

Actually, you are comparing real life laws with an online platform where people buy server space.  One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

If you consider this carefully, it's your parallel that falls flat.

In real life, you pay taxes to use public places.  If you were required to pay to support land in sl, then you would have a legitimate stance.  Since you do not, you can't complain that someone who pays dearly for their spot on the server, doesn't let you enjoy the fruit of their labours.  You can't expect things for free in real life so I've no idea why you would expect them in sl.

Bottom line is, the sim owner is letting you go there & doing so because they want to, not because they have to.

[Mac Shoreman]

"But what you are saying, is that you and anyone else, should be able to dictate what another person does with their private property.  And that, IMO, is a double standard."

What I state is what I type and what this or that or what ever, the point is still... the mass banning for no good reason on commercial land is a **bleep**ty behaviur I wish I did not have to face in SL. From that you can guess things as much you like.

[161488303349]

---

Mac Shoreman wrote:

"is possible you now caught up in a tit-for-tat with an associate of one of the names banned from your place"

I once more say. I have never ever meet them people and I have never ever been on any of their lands or any thing. No connection what so ever and pleas... Read first.

---

tit-for-tat

you ban them. they/alts/associates/business partners/friends/whoever ban you

[Mac Shoreman]

"In real life, you pay taxes to use public places."

stores, cinemas and restaurants and even private owned public transportations are private property in most democrratic societies and NOT payd for with tax money. STILL they are prohibited to stop people randomly and for no good reason from entry or use of the facilities as long as the oblige to follow the establishements rules.

[Canoro Philipp]

rejection feels really bad specially when you dont deserve it.

its bad that this person had to ban all those people maybe as a safeguard that non of the friends of the person s/he had a disagreement with will have repercusions against him/her for having that disagreement. it seems it was a big problem.

this is not the Second Life i wish it was, if it was on me, Second Life would be a place where artists would create anything they have on their minds, everyone would be friendly with each other, it would be a very pleasant society. maybe many of us wish that was Second Life, a paradise, im sure even Philip Rosedale the creator of Second Life would have wish that, he decided to give the people a lot of freedom, to turn this into an escape from the restrictions we had from real life, but it didnt turn out to be a paradise in the concept of many, because what it may be a paradise for some, it may be a hell for others.

people concept of good and evil are very contrasting, for some slavery may be a very bad thing, and for some it may be an ideal form of living, for some dark gothic castles are beautiful, for some they are horrible, and with the large amount of those contrasting minds, Second Life can not be a paradise for everyone.

some of those things that hurt us in real life are gonna filter into Second Life, because after all, we all are humans with emotions, we can take drastic decisions that hurt somebody else, and being in a virtual world dont stop us from doing that.

i wish Second Life was a paradise, but in fairness to others, i prefer it the way it is, with freedom for everybody to express their anger, their love, their jokes, their sadness.

[Tari Landar]

I agree that it sucks to be banned from places without seemingly any cause. It happens a lot. It really sucks and can leave a very sour taste in your mouth. Everyone has the right to complain about whatever they want to complain about too. So I won't tell you not to complain. But I will say that *continuing to complain doesn't always bring about change, or at least not the expected one. Sometimes it does, and sometimes it's extremely effective. But other times, it's really not.

The times when it's not, it's typically because of the *way someone complains or how they address the issue, how they word that which they're choosing to say...things like this. It does make a difference when you use some of the statements you have. You may not think so, but others clearly do. There is a huge difference between saying you dislike something terribly, and stating exactly why you do...and comparing that thing to something along the lines of terrorism. There just is a difference. I'm sorry others couldn't point that out to you more clearly. But for some, that sort of comparison is actually pretty darn offensive, since the two aren't even on the same playing field.

I do understand your frustrations, in fact I am willing to bet most people do, on some level. But you have to look at things from not only your own perspective. Especially when you're making your opinions known on a public forum where opinions and experiences are going to be as vastly different as the participants themselves.

Personally, I tend to offer a heck of a lot more room for emotional complaints, which is what I honestly believe yours is. Not that this is a bad thing. But your complaint is quite clearly very emotionally driven. You seem very disturbed by this sort of action-again not a bad thing. I think it might be best to take some time, calm yourself(not saying you're out of control or something) and think on things before responding back. Some of your responses are getting more and more aggressive which is the exact opposite of the response you want from others. If you want others to respond in kind, then you must first set the precedent.

As far as the issue is concerned, while it does suck, and you are free to be as angry as you want, i want to ask you to sit back and think real hard before answering these questions(you don't have to actually answer them here to us, lol). What exactly are you out(as in, what is being taken from you) by not being able to participate in any activity that might take place on this sim? I know, the hunts you, or your partner that is will not be able to participate in. But other than that, what is the damage being done? Is it worth more than a simple complaint of frustration-hoping to get other merchants to realize their actions have an effect? Is it worth others thinking you might be a little more than they can handle, and thus having a backfire effect(because this is extremely possible, given the responses thus far). Is it really worth getting that frustrated over, when there are hundreds if not thousands of other hunts, other sims and other merchants willing to welcome you with open arms?

I honestly don't think it's worth it, for you, or anyone. I think that while it's good to say your peace(or is it piece? hmmm), important even, sometimes you really need to leave it at that and not continue on with an argument that leaves you and readers flustered. Because in the end, those merchants are losing out, but so are you. You could be just as easily losing customers as they are. Some issues just aren't worth it. Some are, of course, but this one isn't likely to be that kind of issue. It isn't likely to get too much better than we already see. And aside from an initial complaint, our absolute best defense against actions we don't like, is to not support those who make such actions. Let your feet do the talking, as they say. Eventually if what they are doing is really that bad, wrong, or ineffective they will either change their ways or go by the wayside with the countless others. In the end, you still win, you're still the better person(or at least can think of yourself as such) because you didn't stoop to a level that put you down in the same place. Your actions(words in this case) may be different, but the effects they have on others, might not be so different.

Yeah, long winded, just thought I'd explain it and clarify so I don't have to come back and do so again

 

[Mac Shoreman]

"i wish Second Life was a paradise, but in fairness to others, i prefer it the way it is, with freedom for everybody to express their anger, their love, their jokes, their sadness."

Is cool. =)

I love my SL, as is and has been for 3,5 years, and thats why I posted this. I do not want more of non-reason group banning in SL.

[161488303349]

---

Mac Shoreman wrote:

I ban people that HAVE done some thing bad... not BEFORE they do anything or BEFORE i know who they are.

 

Just plain stupid comment.

 

---

can mouth off at me as you like. is ok

+

anyways. i thought you asked a question. like

my partner and i have been banned from a shop. i dont know why?

+

i give you one reason already

a second reason is another latest greatest evah gridwide 'protection' system being offered

you and your partner for whatever or no reason at all may have been added to that list

once added by any owner of a parcel protection object then your name can be propagated to every other owner who has the same system installed on their parcel. when that happens then you are autobanned from all them other parcels as well

the biggest problem with these kinda systems is that anyone can buy them and add whoever they like to the system

anyone includes people who obtain them and then add random names to it for the lulz

[Eileen Fellstein]

I'm not sure why you would want to support a place if it's as horrible as you say. You do realize that by even having your avatar on that sim or accepting any product from them that you might display to others visually in any capacity you are helping them? Also in so doing you are cosigning all the things you are accusing them of. Think about it.

Nothing made of prims in this world is worth that level of compromise if you truly believe the things you claim about this business.

Let your absence speak louder than words. Let them ban themself right out of business.

[Mac Shoreman]

Eileen: I do agree to what you say in general but I do not want to support the place and I never said the place is horrible. I said that group banning people for NO good reason sucks. I am not going there so I am not "cosigning all the things you are accusing them of. " which is... group banning people for no good reason. In this case it is not "me" it is "us". Me beeing banned, reason/no reason, I would not bother.

[Charolotte Caxton]

The more you post, the more I think they had a pretty good reason for banning you. :matte-motes-kiss:

[Mac Shoreman]

"The more you post, the more I think they had a pretty good reason for banning you."

Nice way to call me stupid. thank you!

[Charolotte Caxton]

Nope. Never called you stupid. Thanks. That was your own doing, I would call you over dramatic, a drama queen.

[Heavenly Villa]

As someone who knows mac - he is neither stupid nor a drama queen.    He is simply raising an issue that is understandably frustrating.

 

[Tari Landar]

Raising an issue is one thing.

Being increasingly aggressive, confrontational, and rude is an entirely different thing. It doesn't matter if others are doing so to him, or I should say if it seems like that are. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I think lots of great advice has been offered and at some point one would have to weigh the pros and cons of continuing to debate something that is, obviously, at this point causing more of a backfire effect.

It doesn't matter how nice or good of a person the OP is. Perception is everything, and first impressions say a lot.  Much the same that those who ban for no reason are likely giving a bad impression....so would someone who makes an issue into more than it really is. Or rather, tries to make others believe it's more than it is. What's super important to some, is not so to everyone. Definitely not worthy of an argument in which one would get defensive. I'm thinking this one falls into that category.

I don't think there have been too many people that said, the issue is perfectly fine and dandy. In fact it seems to me most people said it sucks, and there isn't a whole lot you can do but let your feet do your talking. But responding in this manner, isn't going to get the result you believe it will. Nor will it change the minds of others. Maybe if the approach were less abrasive and aggessive, the outcome may have been a bit different.

I don't think there is much that can be said to change how folks perceive you once they believe you've dropped off the dramatic cliff on something, lol. Hey, everyone does it at some point in their lives, we just need to figure out when enough is enough and walking away is probably the better option. Not shutting up, and refusing to share your thoughts, but walking away from the argument... the two aren't mutually exclusive, lol.