What are you waiting for?

[JeanneAnne]

---

LeeHere Absent wrote:

---

---

Perhaps I misunderstood when you said, "

 SL will be killed by its greed-based economy."  

Sorry everybody.  All bets are off.

 

---

If anything kills it .. it will be that

So long as all SL represents to LL execs & investors is $$$ .. SL only needs to be "good enuf" to keep generating revenue for the parasites. They have no incentive to improve anything so long as the cash keeps flowing from the suckers .. ahem!  ~i mean 'residents'~  who keep throwing real money LL's way. Any innovations or improvements would harm their bottom line so we dont expect any. LL will fix things only to the extent they hav2 in order to keep the $$ flowing in. Newbies arrive in droves but only a very few stick .. just sufficient to replace oldbies who die or leave in disgust .. apparently .. Hence, mediocrity prevails & SL shuffles along year after year like a zombie.

It doesnt hav2 be like this tho. If ppl who actually love SL were in control of it .. if it was run for the sake of fun rather than profit .. SL could keep getting better & better !! This wont happen so long as LL has a stranglehold on SL tho. I have proposed a tier strike in order to either force LL to relinquish control of SL to those who actually love it .. or drive them outuv business. The content creators subscribed to LL's toy economy who dominate these fora have dogpiled me over this suggestion. They seem to think they have a vested interest in preserving the status quo !! LoL As if they arent anything besides LL patsies having their creativity exploited by a ruthless sociopathic corporation.

But whether or not LL's greed & ineptitude kills off SL in the near or mid-term future is any1's guess. Like i said, SL may shamble along on sheer inertia for quite some time. ¿¿ Quien sabes ??

Jeanne

[Perrie Juran]

---

PudgyPaddy wrote:

The

Singularity

has several definitions so let me try this one:

a point in our future (many times set at or around 2030 A.D.) beyond which overwhelming technology changes make reliable predictions impossible.

Although I think this to be a frightening world that many of us, as humans, will not understand, I wait for its arrival.

My question for the forum, if you care to participate, is what event or events in our humanity would you like to witness?

To help illustrate my question I provide a few examples:

- cold fusion

- conquering gravity

- traveling faster than light

I am waiting (to be alive at the time) for 

First Contact

with an alien race. I want to know that we are not alone in this universe, and I would like to meet this new intelligent life.

---

to think of an answer

[PudgyPaddy]

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

---

LeeHere Absent wrote:

---

---

Perhaps I misunderstood when you said, "

 SL will be killed by its greed-based economy."  

Sorry everybody.  All bets are off.

 

---

If anything kills it .. it will be that

So long as all SL represents to LL execs & investors is $$$ .. SL only needs to be "good enuf" to keep generating revenue for the parasites. They have no incentive to improve anything so long as the cash keeps flowing from the suckers .. ahem!  ~i mean 'residents'~  who keep throwing real money LL's way. Any innovations or improvements would harm their bottom line so we dont expect any. LL will fix things only to the extent they hav2 in order to keep the $$ flowing in. Newbies arrive in droves but only a very few stick .. just sufficient to replace oldbies who die or leave in disgust .. apparently .. Hence, mediocrity prevails & SL shuffles along year after year like a zombie.

It doesnt hav2 be like this tho. If ppl who actually love SL were in control of it .. if it was run for the sake of fun rather than profit .. SL could keep getting better & better !! This wont happen so long as LL has a stranglehold on SL tho. I have proposed a tier strike in order to either force LL to relinquish control of SL to those who actually love it .. or drive them outuv business. The content creators subscribed to LL's toy economy who dominate these fora have dogpiled me over this suggestion. They seem to think they have a vested interest in preserving the status quo !! LoL As if they arent anything besides LL patsies having their creativity exploited by a ruthless sociopathic corporation.

But whether or not LL's greed & ineptitude kills off SL in the near or mid-term future is any1's guess. Like i said, SL may shamble along on sheer inertia for quite some time. ¿¿ Quien sabes ??

Jeanne

---

I do think somewhere you missed the point of the assignment.  

[JeanneAnne]

---

PudgyPaddy wrote:

---

---

I do think somewhere you missed the point of the assignment.  

---

How does that John Lennon quote go ?? the one im always seeing on fb .. something like:

my teacher asked us what we wanted to be when we grew up .. & i said that i wanted to be happy .. & she said that she thot that somewhere i had missed the point of the assignment .. & i told her that i thot that somewhere she had missed the point of life ... something like that ..

i responded to the OP .. then the thread went off in different directions .. i think that the idea of some 'breakthru' in collective human development or consciousness is hubristic .. that its not going to happen .. given the kinduv ape we are .. given our bloody & godawful history .. & i think that we are goin2 keep on breeding & wrecking the Ocean Planet's biosphere until our population collapses & we go extinct .. i think that the idea that were goin2 colonize the galaxy is ridiculous & demonstrates profound ignornace of physics & biology .. iv said all this ... so what point have i missed Pudgy?

Jeanne

[LeeHere Absent]

I am assuming you are continuing to indulge in a continued bit of soapbox hyperbole and that you don't actually think the corporation is sociopathic, but rather, that individuals within the corporation are sociopathic.

 

I would also assume that you might be excluding Philip Rosedale from that "sociopathic" group slur since people have posted to you about his vision beyond the dollars as evidenced by the non-capitalistic and profit-focused aspects of Second Life and the LoveMachine, which I am sure you investigated and educated yourself on as I see you continue to speak in depth on the subject.  Or maybe you feel he is conflicted or perhaps duplicitous in combining these potentially contrasting views?

 

I saw the content-creator "dogpile" you are referring to and I remember a number of points including the one in which people felt you were straying from criticizing the situation and veering into personal attacks, despite your denials, yet here again, you call the content creators "patsies" and I think I can see where you might think that an editorial on the situation, but I can also see where the content creators would consider that a personal insult made out of arrogance since you are labeling them with an epithet and from a position of apparent disgust and weak pity.  I remember the content creators also felt there was a kind of "insult added to injury" situation occurring with you because you were calling them names, like "patsy," and yet enjoying the fruits of their labor, crowing about it even.

 

I am not a content creator, just an observer and a consumer of user-created Second Life content.  Oh, and like you, a poster with a perspective.  Seems you and I have a lot in common despite our differences.

[161488303349]

---

Luschious Nightfire wrote:

I'm waiting for the abolition of wealth/money/currency

---

is a symbiotic relationship between labour and capital. currently wealth is measured by capital. everything have a price. including labour

if take away the manual labour component then capital not have any value in itself

in a world devoid of manual human labour for the basic neccesities of life then what labour remains is creative labour. making stuff for fun and the joy of doing for its own sake

i would like to live in that kind of world

[JeanneAnne]

>>I am assuming you are continuing to indulge in a continued bit of soapbox hyperbole and that you don't actually think the corporation is sociopathic, but rather, that individuals within the corporation are sociopathic.<<

Well .. a corporation is a legalistic concept thats actualized by individuals .. So you're correct .. in a way .. Its the individuals who identify w/ & operate w/in the corporate paradigm who are the true sociopaths .. Yet! the very idea of the corporation is sociopathic .. in that it absolves individuals of personal responsibility for the harm they do as components of a greedy corporate entity .. So .. the entire construct is sociopathic & evil .. as are the individuals who participate in the social epitomization of the cancer cell's lust to appropriate all resources unto itself .. Likewise, a society is evil that allows such cancerous sociopathic entities to be legally formalized

>>I would also assume that you might be excluding Philip Rosedale from that "sociopathic" group slur .. <<

Nope. I hold him personally responsible for the resource suk SL is .. He may have been altruistic when younger .. but he has been consumed by greed .. like Judas Iscariot .. & is nothing more than a bloated tick to my mind .. Whatever philanthropy he may indulge in is a public relations jesture .. or motivated by guilt .. At best he's let his ideas be perverted by greed-meisters & hasnt objected cuz its all made him rich

>> Or maybe you feel he is conflicted or perhaps duplicitous ..<<

Absolutely duplicitous !!

>>..people felt you were straying from criticizing the situation and veering into personal attacks..<<

I attack no1 in these fora .. I dont know anyone personally in these fora to attack .. I attack the evil sociopathic cancerous mentality of fascist capitalist corporatism .. Those who defend this anti-life politico-economic aberration may come under my attack by implication but such criticism isnt 'personal' .. yet!  if the shoe fits wear it

>> I can also see where the content creators would consider that a personal insult made out of arrogance .. <<

Yeah .. I suppose i can see how they might feel that way too .. but the sentiment is misguided .. I'd like to see talented content creators fairly reimbursed by the corporate parasites that grow rich off the creativity of others .. rather than be hyperexploited for their efforts by the wealth-suckers .. i would rather not be so blunt in expressing the obvious: how creative ppl are being played as patsies by the corporation .. but when ppl blindly jump to the defense of the very pigs who rip them off .. i guess i feel the need to lay the situation out in its most stark terms .. sorry if that offends but i believe it only offends becuz ppl dont like having it pointed out how badly theyve been played .. makes em feel foolish or sumthin .. guess the messenger is an easier target than the corporate dom whos collared em

>>..since you are labeling them with an epithet and from a position of apparent disgust and weak pity.<<

My disgust is not with the content creators .. It's with the corporation that uses them.  I wouldnt say that i "pity" them either .. since they do what they do of their own volition .. unless its pitiful that theyve swallowed the entire paradigm of usury ~> perpetual growth ~> environmental limits ~> collapse .. thats sequent to the mindset thats been hammered in2 em .. that is pretty sad & pitiful .. but i cant really blame ppl for falling for it given the ubiquity of the message in this sick capitalist society in terminal decline

>> ..crowing about it even.<<

I assure you its nothing to crow about. It's sick. It's evil. & its even sicker that those who are the most impacted & exploited by it are the most vocal in its defense .. personally id like nothing better than to stand w/ the victims but when the victims become the most vocal in defense of their very victimization .. 4give me if i mock them a bit in order to get their attention .. to make the point

>>Seems you and I have a lot in common despite our differences.<<

If you say so LeeHere ...

Jeanne

[Venus Petrov]

---

JeanneAnne wrote:.

Its the individuals who identify w/ & operate w/in the corporate paradigm who are the true sociopaths

.. 

I attack the evil sociopathic cancerous mentality of fascist capitalist corporatism

.

I'd like to see talented content creators fairly reimbursed by the corporate parasites that grow rich off the creativity of others .. rather than be hyperexploited for their efforts by the wealth-suckers

.\

Jeanne

---

 

So, everyone who works for a corporation is a sociopath?  What about small businesses?  What about non-profits?  Who do you exclude?

Fascist capitalism?  I would suggest that those who are subsidizing your SL existence have made some money in RL.  What does that make you?

Anyone who is a content creator in SL and not happy doing it would remove themselves quickly from that circumstance.  Why do you assume they are unhappy doing what they do?

 

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

PudgyPaddy wrote:

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

PudgyPaddy wrote:

what event or events in our humanity would you like to witness?

---

Someone who can actually get me off,

then go away quietly.

---

I thought the best part of gay sex was afterward rolling over and talking football. 

---

Have you considered the possibility that football might have a completely different meaning in the gay community?

...Dres

[Eileen Fellstein]

I just want a stick of margarine/butter that don't get my fingers greasy when I unwrap it.

oh, and a quiet vaccuum cleaner

[Amethyst Jetaime]

The problem with your little naive rants is that they are just flat out wrong and have been proven wrong time and time again in RL.  There hasn't been a country yet based on pure communism, socialism or whatever flavor of what you endorse that has succeed in the long term, proving that you way of thinking is wrong. Please name one country in the world with the type of system you endorse that is, was, or has been flourishing and whose citizens are happy, healthy and have a high standard of living.  Even China has ipso facto admitted failure as they now are allowing citizens to own private businesses and profit from them.  It was only when they allowed this that they started to advance economically and raise the most people out of poverty.  The USSR as fallen and can't get up again and be better than it was before it fell using the same methods.  Even before it fell the majority of people struggled daily and were not happy with the way things were. Any other country that you can name is strictly 3rd world, run by a bloody dictator or evil government that uses force to make its citizens conform and will stay that way unless they too change.

Nature itself has wired things for the survival of the fittest.  To be the most fit to survive you have to be willing and able to do better than anyone else.  You can't point to one species of creature that doesn't follow this rule.  Even bee hives don't.  They may within their own hive, but I've yet to see a hive voluntarily share their wealth with a neighboring hive. 

I have not been brainwashed by anyone or anything.  I've actually given it quite a bit of thought and have concluded that while you can give everybody an equal shot at success, only those people that have the skills, talent,and motivation to do better will do better.  The only way to motivate them to do better is to reward them. Only through encouragement of these people will they invent anything that will allow everyone else a better life.  I do not however, rule out providing for the basic needs of everyone in a country such as mine that is wealthy.  I just want people to be able to rise above the basics or the human condition will never improve.

One final thing.  Why do you stay in SL?  There are open grids out there that are modeled after what you espouse, have no economy and are free.  Why aren't you there now helping them to succeed?  The answer is that these grids have very little quality content and very few people on line at any one time and very little chance of growing.  You aren't there because you want to be here where you have the best chance of making the most social contacts with interesting people and collecting material things free so you can live the high life, which is just another side of the very greed you say you detest so much.  If you truely believe what you say you do, please put your useless and evil money to use by buying a sim and opening it up for anyone to use however they please and provide everything they need to do so for free. I am sure it would be a virtual heaven.

 

[JeanneAnne]

>>The problem with your little naive rants is that they are just flat out wrong..<<

No they aren't.

>>..and have been proven wrong time and time again in RL.<<

Nonsense! All you're doing is stating your opinion. You're arguing on the basis of "adamant assertion." I can assert back just as adamantly.

>>There hasn't been a country yet based on pure communism, socialism or whatever flavor of what you endorse that has succeed in the long term..<<

Utter nonsense!

Gatherer/scavenger societies organized around the extended family/clan shared resources equitably for hundreds of thousands of years. This is the type of social organization natural selection has adapted humans to thrive under. Hierarchical, authoritaian social organization characterized by inequitable resource distribution is a quite recent abberation, dating no earlier than the dawn of agriculture. Such abberant societies are demonstrably maladaptive. Human overpopulation, environmental degradation, the poisioning of the atmosphere & surface oceans with oxidized carbon and the mass extinction of species demonstrates the inherent unsuccessfulness of capitalist socio-political pathology. The consequences of captialist pathology have included slavery, war, the abasement of women, and environmental rapaciousness, to name but a few...

Okay.. that's enuf.. I can't take reading any more of your terse nonsense Amethyst .. Sorry.

Jeanne

 

[PeterCanessa Oh]

Very nicely put.

However: family - clan - tribe organisation is the ultimate heirarchical, authoritarian one.  I'm in charge because I'm the daddy.  It is also exactly what Hobbes meant in Leviathan as "the war of every man against every man" in which life is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short"

I have never encountered any non-fictional accounts of any society that "shared resources equitably" do you have citations?  I'm not at all sure that after a hard day's hunting I'm going to give any of my food to aunt Doreen's second cousin with the squint, especially after what she said about our Malcolm at the gathering.

[JeanneAnne]

---

PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

Very nicely put.

However: family - clan - tribe organisation is the ultimate heirarchical, authoritarian one.  I'm in charge because I'm the daddy.  It is also exactly what Hobbes meant in Leviathan as "the war of every man against every man" in which life is "

solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short"

I have never encountered any non-fictional accounts of any society that "shared resources equitably" do you have citations?  I'm not at all sure that after a hard day's hunting I'm going to give any of my food to aunt Doreen's second cousin with the squint, especially after what she said about our Malcolm at the gathering.

---

Your's is the typical "Tarzanist" view of human prehistory and of contemporary scaveging/gathering societies Peter. !Kung San peoples in the Kalahari spend 19 hours per week, on average, scavenging, gathering & hunting, whereas nearby Bantu subsistence farmers average >100 hours per week of hard labor.. and are less well nourished to boot. As for your "hard day's hunting," the bulk of the calories consumed by both sexes are provided by plant foods gathered by women. Because the women are subsidizing the men, it's the women, if anyone, who are in charge. Indeed, such societies are typically matriarchal & matrilineal. It's true that men provide high quality protein and fat to pregnant & lactating women, and this is important in terms of essential amino & fatty acids necessary for the nourishment of children, but it is qualitatively insignificant calorie wise.

Don't let your new red icon go to your head Peter. I'm sure you can help me with things pertaining to SL but don't emulate Hobbes by going beyond your abilities & deigning to pontificate about things you know nothing about.

Jeanne

[PeterCanessa Oh]

What people really say just fascinates me.

"Subsidisng", "in charge", "matriarchal" - not terms that sit well with equitable and non-heirarchical.  How do the sick, lame, mad, slaves, etc. feel in such societies?

Don't let the Political Philosophy & Economics Masters degree or the Philosophy Phd (thesis: population control and inheritance of power) put you off, a good pontificate exercises the mind.  Didn't I say I thought you'd put your argument very nicely.  Do pay attention when you're being given a compliment ^^

[JeanneAnne]

>>"Subsidisng", "in charge", "matriarchal" - not terms that sit well with equitable and non-heirarchical<<

You're right. But, then, it wasn't me who set the tone for the discussion.

>>How do the sick, lame, mad, slaves, etc. feel in such societies?<<

I imagine that they feel ill, incapacitated, paranoid & anxious.. There are no slaves, tho.

>>Don't let the Political Philosophy & Economics Masters degree or the Philosophy Phd (thesis: population control and inheritance of power) put you off..<<

I'm not put off. It's just that I feel that if an education isn't in math or the hard sciences, it isn't an education.

>>..a good pontificate exercises the mind.<<

Agreed!

>>Didn't I say I thought you'd put your argument very nicely.  Do pay attention when you're being given a compliment ^^<<

Oh come on.. It wasn't a compliment. It was an attempt to positively reinforce my conformity to standard orthography & grammar, so that I would continue expressing myself as you see fit. An attempt to manipulate me, in effect. As such, it was an act of violence. A real compliment would involve allowing me leave to express myself as I see fit. But, then, I don't need your leave..

Jeanne

[PeterCanessa Oh]

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

Oh come on.. It wasn't a compliment. It was an attempt to positively reinforce my conformity to standard orthography & grammar, so that I would continue expressing myself as

you

see fit. An attempt to manipulate me, in effect. As such, it was an act of violence. A real compliment would involve allowing me leave to express myself as I see fit. But, then, I don't need your leave..

Jeanne

---

It's tough love, see how much fun you have when you communicate. (I am grinning quite a lot at your last few posts)

[161488303349]

---

PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

Very nicely put.

However: family - clan - tribe organisation is the ultimate heirarchical, authoritarian one.  I'm in charge because I'm the daddy.  It is also exactly what Hobbes meant in Leviathan as "the war of every man against every man" in which life is "

solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short"

I have never encountered any non-fictional accounts of any society that "shared resources equitably" do you have citations?  I'm not at all sure that after a hard day's hunting I'm going to give any of my food to aunt Doreen's second cousin with the squint, especially after what she said about our Malcolm at the gathering.

---

you would give to the second cousin bc of the authoritarian nature of the tribal family group. if you dont then one of you has to leave the tribe

hunter gatherers tribes dont survive when individuals members pick and choose what they do against the needs of the tribal body, when those choices affect the survival of the members and the tribe itself. is survivalism. which is the basis for heirarchial authoritarian groups. on our own we are quite weak compared to other animals

example: the squinty eyed cousin spends all day chewing animal skins into soft material for clothing and tents. in a cold climate, then a tribe with one chewer and many hunters, when forced, will choose to keep the chewer. vice versa if is only a few or one hunter. the hunter is only more important than the chewer depending on the make up of the group

+

can be difficult sometimes for us today in first world countries to comprehend how or why tribes necessarily work like they do. mostly bc we think that that we are no longer directly dependent on others for our own survival

is not actual true this thought in practice. we are.

we just dont see it anymore bc of the size of the heirarchial authoritarian nature of our tribes and the societal institutions we have built to reinforce this. at state, national and now even international levels. even democracy is dictatorial in effect. the tribe has spoken

what makes todays tribes different from the old old olden day tribes is that you cant leave anymore. can only swap one tribes ways for another tribe. cant start your own tribe  

[JeanneAnne]

---

PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

Oh come on.. It wasn't a compliment. It was an attempt to positively reinforce my conformity to standard orthography & grammar, so that I would continue expressing myself as

you

see fit. An attempt to manipulate me, in effect. As such, it was an act of violence. A real compliment would involve allowing me leave to express myself as I see fit. But, then, I don't need your leave..

Jeanne

---

It's tough love, see how much fun you have when you communicate. (I am grinning quite a lot at your last few posts)

---

the deal is Peter .. that ill express myself however i feel like .. & i dont care who likes it or dislikes it .. reads my posts or dont .. the way i see it yer no different than those who attempt ina h8ful way 2 get me 2 conform 2 ther expectations .. sure .. yer nicer .. but thats irrelevant .. what matters is that you .. along w/ the h8ers .. attempt 2 control the selfexpression uv sum1 else .. wher do u get off w/ that scheisse ?? i could care less how others express themselves .. its whether or not any1 has anything intelligent 2 say that matters .. not that i see alota that in these fora .. but even if sum1 did annoy me .. id just not read em .. not lie about not readin em in a post in response 2 thers .. LoL .. simple no?

Jeanne

[Amethyst Jetaime]

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

>>The problem with your little naive rants is that they are just flat out wrong..<<

No they aren't.

Why

?  Where are your examples and facts to prove it?

>>..and have been proven wrong time and time again in RL.<<

Nonsense! All you're doing is stating your opinion. You're arguing on the basis of "adamant assertion." I can assert back just as adamantly.

It isn't opinion when I've sited actual RL examples where time and time again it hasn't worked.   The fact is that there hasn't been one of your described "utopias" in RL on the scale of  the resident population of SL or a country that has worked. If there was you would have been able to name at least

one

example.

>>There hasn't been a country yet based on pure communism, socialism or whatever flavor of what you endorse that has succeed in the long term..<<

Utter nonsense!

And yet you can't name just one?  I gave several prime examples in support of this statement that you conveniently left out and submit it is not nonsense but true.

Gatherer/scavenger societies organized around the extended family/clan shared resources equitably for hundreds of thousands of years. This is the type of social organization natural selection has adapted humans to thrive under. Hierarchical, authoritaian social organization characterized by inequitable resource distribution is a quite recent abberation, dating no earlier than the dawn of agriculture. Such abberant societies are demonstrably maladaptive. Human overpopulation, environmental degradation, the poisioning of the atmosphere & surface oceans with oxidized carbon and the mass extinction of species demonstrates the inherent unsuccessfulness of capitalist socio-political pathology. The consequences of captialist pathology have included slavery, war, the abasement of women, and environmental rapaciousness, to name but a few...

Sorry, while what you say is true, this has only worked on

small

scales such as families and clans that had a genetic tie and a good reason to make sure their common genes survived through sharing of resources.  And even then it was not 'pure' when the clan or family leaders had more than the lower members of the family/clan.  Why was it necessary for other forms of government to evolve as people settled in larger groups forming cities and countries?  You said yourself it all changed at the dawn of agriculture, which was the beginning of the time in human history when humans rose above wild animals and started to form more advanced cultures and civilization.  BTW you still haven't named a country where it has worked which is what I actually asked you to name.

Okay.. That's enuf.. I can't take reading any more of your terse nonsense Amethyst .. Sorry.

Jeanne

 

---

 

This is typical of people who avoid answering a  direct question because they can't without revealing the flaws in their own position.  You didn't answer even the

one

question with just one example

. 

Until you can I am afraid that I will have to stick with my original assertions. 

BTW, have you ever run for political office? Your reply reminded me so much of this song:

 

[Charolotte Caxton]

Hi.

I have been reading your posts and I have seen you write some pretty intelligent stuff in a very intelligent manner.

Your attempt at text speak kinda insults those of us who know better.

In fact, you will note that you are almost universally hated for one, your communist sociobabble and two, your attempt at trying to be kewl with retarded spelling.

Anybody can type 2 instead of to, you seem to do it intentionally to harass those of us who read these forums for enjoyment.

That makes you anti forum and therefore someone to be despised by sincere forum posters.

I hope that doesn't sound like you are a bad person, you aren't, but you have to know typing in incomprehensible nonsense isn't gaining you any fans, even from those of us who like spend all day on the phone and in chat.

What you are trying is like so fifth grade, sorry.

[PeterCanessa Oh]

Yes 16, I think you're right in all the details there.  How they work out is a matter of whether the tribe survives or not though.  That our essential human nature has not changed would be one of my contentions however and that this makes it extremely unlikely any group will treat its members fairly and equitably.  For a start you'd always have some(one) feeling they were not getting their fair share, more deeply it would be very hard to get agreement on what 'fair' meant anyway.  Lol, I have a teenage daughter, guess how many times I hear "it's not fair".

With very small groups it is relatively easy for a single figure to "dominate to arbitrate" - the Leviathan figure to whom Hobbes refers.  As groups become larger it requires greater and greater strength and focus to assume this position.  Without getting into the gender politics a classic argument is that in small groups women dominate by strength of personal contacts and care but as groups get larger this is (generally) overshadowed by mens' greater physical strength and competitiveness.

This being so there is nothing inherently 'equitable' about the family - clan - tribe organisation because we are all always human.  The perceived benefit comes from the very fact that the group is small so consensus and arbitration are easier, as is domination by charisma, not might.  This is though, still, domination and whatever the rights and wrongs of the gender debate the relevance of organisation and power simply disappears as the groups get larger.

[@ Jeanne - too hard to read.  If there was a brilliant point in there it has been lost in translation]

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Hi.

I have been reading your posts and I have seen you write some pretty intelligent stuff in a very intelligent manner.

Your attempt at text speak kinda insults those of us who know better.

In fact, you will note that you are almost universally hated for one, your communist sociobabble and two, your attempt at trying to be kewl with retarded spelling.

Anybody can type 2 instead of to, you seem to do it intentionally to harass those of us who read these forums for enjoyment.

That makes you anti forum and therefore someone to be despised by sincere forum posters.

I hope that doesn't sound like you are a bad person, you aren't, but you have to know typing in incomprehensible nonsense isn't gaining you any fans, even from those of us who like spend all day on the phone and in chat.

What you are trying is like so fifth grade, sorry.

---

I'm afraid you're wasting your time, Charo.  JeanneAnne is not interested in gaining any fans nor is she required to make her posts legible.  If she wants to accost us with her commie crap and insufferable idiot speak, she has every right to do that... as we have every right to laugh at her and/or just ignore her completely.

What I find disturbing, is that she pulls that **expletive** with noobies that are just coming here for a little help.  Her insistence on answering posts, where people are already having a difficult time understanding what's going on, with something you almost need a decoder ring to decipher is just plain cruel.  But her selfish, entitlement-mentality will not allow her to understand this.  She's lost... no one can save her.

...Dres

[JeanneAnne]

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Hi.

I have been reading your posts and I have seen you write some pretty intelligent stuff in a very intelligent manner.

Your attempt at text speak kinda insults those of us who know better.

In fact, you will note that you are almost universally hated for one, your communist sociobabble and two, your attempt at trying to be kewl with retarded spelling.

Anybody can type 2 instead of to, you seem to do it intentionally to harass those of us who read these forums for enjoyment.

That makes you anti forum and therefore someone to be despised by sincere forum posters.

I hope that doesn't sound like you are a bad person, you aren't, but you have to know typing in incomprehensible nonsense isn't gaining you any fans, even from those of us who like spend all day on the phone and in chat.

What you are trying is like so fifth grade, sorry.

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I'm afraid you're wasting your time, Charo.  JeanneAnne is not interested in gaining any fans nor is she required to make her posts legible.  If she wants to accost us with her commie crap and insufferable idiot speak, she has every right to do that... as we have every right to laugh at her and/or just ignore her completely.

What I find disturbing, is that she pulls that **expletive** with noobies that are just coming here for a little help.  Her insistence on answering posts, where people are already having a difficult time understanding what's going on, with something you almost need a decoder ring to decipher is just plain cruel.  But her selfish, entitlement-mentality will not allow her to understand this.  She's lost... no one can save her.

...Dres

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The way you obsess over me Dres ... You sure yer gay ?!?! )

Jeanne

[Dresden Ceriano]

Hey... just trying to help.

...Dres