SL hates entrepreneurs

[Dana Hickman]

What I'm wondering is.. If SL products are protected under dmca, that gives them basically the same IP status as a retail piece of software. On those, if limited-usage EULA conditions aren't made available before purchase (which most aren't, they're inside only), then the manufacturer is nearly always required to honor a return and refund (regardless of whether the reseller does or not), otherwise that's classified as a bait and switch (ie- fraud). Look at what Microsoft went through with the internet browser preference fiasco on Windows and it's easy to see there's legal precedent set on selling software without specifying non-standard or unexpected limiting conditions beforehand. There's a reason anti-virus boxes all have subscription length or terms of available updates right on the outside of the box, because otherwise common convention says the software will perform as believed forever, and the manufacturer would be required to make it that way or give a refund if they didn't want to face fraud charges. In SL, "standard" conditions are the perms on the item, not what's in any homemade license that LL doesn't stand behind. To me, that says if an SL creator doesn't have in big bold letters right on the vendor or MP page that the included licence will limit this product use to this or that, then they must honor a return or their included license is null and void, and any dmca for breaking it's bait-and-switched terms of use unactionable. That's what I get out of it anyway.

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Dana Hickman wrote:

What I'm wondering is.. If SL products are protected under dmca, that gives them basically the same IP status as a retail piece of software. On those, if limited-usage EULA conditions aren't made available

before

purchase (which most aren't, they're inside only), then the manufacturer is nearly always required to honor a return and refund (regardless of whether the reseller does or not), otherwise that's classified as a bait and switch (ie- fraud). Look at what Microsoft went through with the internet browser preference fiasco on Windows and it's easy to see there's legal precedent set on selling software without specifying non-standard or unexpected limiting conditions beforehand. There's a reason anti-virus boxes all have subscription length or terms of available updates right on the outside of the box, because otherwise common convention says the software will perform as believed forever, and the manufacturer would be required to make it that way or give a refund if they didn't want to face fraud charges. In SL, "standard" conditions are the perms on the item, not what's in any homemade license that LL doesn't stand behind. To me, that says if an SL creator doesn't have in big bold letters right on the vendor or MP page that the included licence will limit this product use to this or that, then they must honor a return or their included license is null and void, and any dmca for breaking it's bait-and-switched terms of use unactionable. That's what I get out of it anyway.

---

i don't believe LL is responsible for someones listing..this is just a place where people can sell their content..they are not really SL products..SL is just where the assembly takes place..all these things can be produced outside of sl...they are products of the user..that doesn't take them away from RL laws when it comes to selling in here..even though this is pretty much where a lot of that stuff is used..even though it's not the only place..

the thing is most times it's not worth the headaches or effort to get the money back from a merchant if they refuse to give a refund..

plus a lot i see do have a no refund warning before hand..but they all don't..

something new i am seeing now is offering so many days and not satisfied and you can get your money back..

i hope we start to see a lot more of this really hehehe

 

 

 

[JeanneAnne]

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Sae Luan wrote:

---

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How is anyone meant to make their own L$?  

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In the 1st place, you don't NEED L$ to enjoy SL. You can play & have fun for free.

& in the 2nd place, there's tons of ways to get L$ .. Ppl will give you L$ or give you stuff .. There's plenty of freebie stuff .. You can fill out surveys, enter contests, do midnite manias & lucky chairs & hunts & stuff like that .. You can DJ or dance or be an escort ..

If you build stuff you should just give it away. Dealing w/ all the rules & laws & bs like that is the SL fun killer. Ppl like the OP get all bent over such crap. Seems like many of the restuv you obsess over it. Theres always goin2 be scammers & thieves so long as you treat SL like some kinduv toy business. Theyre goin2 get over on you. LL isnt goin2 stop them. Seems to me like ppl just enjoy the drama over all this stuff. I say just play SL for fun. If you like to build or script - thats fine .. do it then delete or give your stuff away ..... That way, you can enjoy SL w/out being obsessed over play money.

Jeanne

[Innula Zenovka]

JeanneAnne, have you ever wondered where people find the money from to pay the tier on the sims where people "play & have fun for free"?  

Most of us can't afford two or three hundred dollars a month (depending on whether it's a mainland or island sim) and  only manage to keep them going either through renting out shop space or from our own in-world sales.   A lot of people end up paying part of the tier out of their own pockets anyway, but need the in-world income to defray at least part of the cost.

 

[Rival Destiny]

^yes, that.

& more.

Content creators, sim owners, etc. are what keep sl running.  If not for them, there would be little to enjoy in sl.

[PeterCanessa Oh]

Nevertheless JeanneAnne is right - for those in a position not to have to worry about money in SL, doing so only causes a headache you don't need.  As is often advised, buying L$ with real money is almost always more time-effective than trying to earn it in SL.

[JeanneAnne]

---

PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

Nevertheless JeanneAnne is right - for those in a position not to have to worry about money in SL, doing so only causes a headache you don't need.  As is often advised, buying L$ with real money is almost always more time-effective than trying to earn it in SL.

---

Yup ... you could work for minimum wage ... buy L$ if you think you need them .. & come out ahead in terms of time & effort ...

Jeanne

[Rival Destiny]

Jeanne may be correct about not needing $L to enjoy sl, however, the suggestion that content creators make stuff & just give it away for free makes no sense.  The beauty of sl is the virtual economy created there.  The opportunities for those enterpeneurs to get their feet wet & hopefully become successful.  Or, at least enough to cover some of their costs they incur to enjoy sl along side those that come to sl simply to play, etc.

In addition to that, we cannot paint all sl residents with the same brush.  There are actually people in sl who make their rl living thru their various enterprises.  A good number of these people run profitable business's.

Buying L$ as opposed to earning them is not the same for all.  I know many in sl who make a real life living and NEVER have a need to purchase $L.

So blanket statements, as always, never pertain to the masses.  So, yes JeanneAnne is correct, but only for a portion of sl residents.

 

 

[Paul Hexem]

---

Dana Hickman wrote:

What I'm wondering is.. If SL products are protected under dmca, that gives them basically the same IP status as a retail piece of software. On those, if limited-usage EULA conditions aren't made available

before

purchase (which most aren't, they're inside only), then the manufacturer is nearly always required to honor a return and refund (regardless of whether the reseller does or not), otherwise that's classified as a bait and switch (ie- fraud). Look at what Microsoft went through with the internet browser preference fiasco on Windows and it's easy to see there's legal precedent set on selling software without specifying non-standard or unexpected limiting conditions beforehand. There's a reason anti-virus boxes all have subscription length or terms of available updates right on the outside of the box, because otherwise common convention says the software will perform as believed forever, and the manufacturer would be required to make it that way or give a refund if they didn't want to face fraud charges. In SL, "standard" conditions are the perms on the item, not what's in any homemade license that LL doesn't stand behind. To me, that says if an SL creator doesn't have in big bold letters right on the vendor or MP page that the included licence will limit this product use to this or that, then they must honor a return or their included license is null and void, and any dmca for breaking it's bait-and-switched terms of use unactionable. That's what I get out of it anyway.

---

You're right. If you buy something from someone in SL and the EULA isn't made available beforehand, they either have to refund you (and you have to delete it), or you can ignore it.

If they file a takedown against you after not refunding you, you counter and say "See you in court", where they'll get told the same thing software developrts and distributers were told - Refund the money or let the user do whatever they want.

That is, assuming it goes to court. Most residents in SL can't afford it, and are stuck looking at the pretty piece of paper that is the counter notice.

 LL will not get involved.

[JeanneAnne]

>> The beauty of sl is the virtual economy created there.<<

The toy economy is the thing i hate worst about SL. I would much prefer for everyone to have to pay a nominal user fee, then abolish the L$ along w/ private "ownership" (which is merely an illusion - LL owns or leases the servers) of  "property" (which is nothing but 1s & 0s on a server somewhere).

>>There are actually people in sl who make their rl living thru their various enterprises.<<

These people represent a vanishingly small minority of SL residents. Most ppl play SL for free. All but a small percentage of those who run SL businesses are lucky if they even make rent or tier from their enterprise.

>>So, yes JeanneAnne is correct, but only for a portion of sl residents.<<

True, but that portion amounts to 99.99% or sl residents.

Jeanne

[Rival Destiny]

True, but that portion amounts to 99.99% or sl residents.

Please link me up with the LL stats that show this. 

IMO, should LL remove the ability to trade resident works for Lindens, and only charge a nominal user fee, the economy would collapse & so would LL.  And if they did this, they would crash & burn.  They would be getting rid of a majority (9.99% perhaps?) of their revenue streams.  Edited to add:  Unless of course LL charges much more than a nominal fee.

Content creators, sim owners, just to name a few, would leave sl in droves.  Why?  Because LL would have taken away the reason they come to sl in the first place.  I am referring to those that participate in the economy of sl.

And those that make their real life living in sl, are not doing so with blinders on.  It may be a risky business because their income relies not only on the rl economy and sl ecomony, but on the ability of Linden Labs to remain afloat.  Also, land owners are fully aware that they don't own real land, that is obvious.  What they do own, is server space on which they make their living.  All of this comes down to RL dollars not pixels.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

But the problem with that, JeanneAnne, is that ultimately landowners do have to make tier, to pay LL.   Otherwise the sims vanish.   And most people need at least to subsidise the two or three hundred USD a month each sim costs either from their own in-world sales or from rentals, and on a lot of sims these need to be commercial rather than residential rentals, which in turn depend in part on sales.

It's all very well to say you'd like to abolish L$ and owning land.    I don't know if you spend much time at sandboxes and welcome areas, and have noticed a distinct difference between the Linden-owned ones and the private or group ones, but I can assure you the difference between them is primarily because the private or group ones are managed by people with the ability to control building, remove trouble-makers and so on.

But be that as it may, the fact remains that, however you might think LL should run their business, they do, in fact, base it on people paying them real money for the use of virtual land.    That money has to come from somewhere, and in-world sales a very important component -- directly or indirectly -- of that.    

Yes, if it's just a small parcel and you're only paying US$20 or $30 a month for it, then I agree that it's normally easier to put it on your credit card than worry about earning it in-world, but when you're talking about whole sims, or groups of them, not many of us are wealthy enough in RL to do that.

[PeterCanessa Oh]

The following is how I would have to paraphrase your previous post.  I'm not saying this is what YOU said/mean, just how I'd see the same thing, so don't sweat it:

"Jeanne may be correct about not needing $L to enjoy SL, however, I have no sense because I give scripts away.  A beauty of SL is the option to join in the virtual economy created there.  ..."

My point being it's all options and choices and no-one needs to choose to care about money in SL if they don't want to.  I've been a merchant myself a few times.  Made millions of L$ and spent them all again.  As a scripter it's particularly easy to make a profit because you don't need much of a shop/office/workspace.  As such I've NEVER had a need to purchase $L, but it would still have been more time-effective if I had.

Incidentally - I am NOT supporting the idea that people should give their work away.  I AM supporting the idea that other people don't HAVE to buy it.

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

But the problem with that, JeanneAnne, is that ultimately landowners do have to make tier, to pay LL.   Otherwise the sims vanish.   And most people need at least to subsidise the two or three hundred USD a month each sim costs either from their own in-world sales or from rentals, and on a lot of sims these need to be commercial rather than residential rentals, which in turn depend in part on sales.

It's all very well to say you'd like to abolish L$ and owning land.    I don't know if you spend much time at sandboxes and welcome areas, and have noticed a distinct difference between the Linden-owned ones and the private or group ones, but I can assure you the difference between them is primarily because the private or group ones are managed by people with the ability to control building, remove trouble-makers and so on.

But be that as it may, the fact remains that, however you might think LL should run their business, they do, in fact, base it on people paying them real money for the use of virtual land.    That money has to come from somewhere, and in-world sales a very important component -- directly or indirectly -- of that.    

Yes, if it's just a small parcel and you're only paying US$20 or $30 a month for it, then I agree that it's normally easier to put it on your credit card than worry about earning it in-world, but when you're talking about whole sims, or groups of them, not many of us are wealthy enough in RL to do that.

---

the market place really does show it well..

i mean there is content that we used to be able to grab in world..

the world ends up looking a little more bare with each that migrates to just the market place because of costs..

they pay a service fee with each item sold and now we have less or empty land in sl...

can't help but think if they were making more in world that they would have just went to the MP alone..

to me it's sad that a lot of stores and places have left the grid that were doing well because of costs which don't get buffered as much as before..because it's just easier to get these things at the MP..have to thank LL for that  one =(

i also hate that when i do see great things on mp that there is no link to inworld..a sim or store to me showed a lot about the creator..the style of store..the build around those things..

i'm fortunate enough in rl to be able to have my own sim to play with because i just want to for the room..

when i shop..i try to make it as much of a cushion as i can for merchants..because sims are not cheap..and when i love someones work or the club they own..or that riding sim i love to ride in so much..

i try to let them know they are wanted and needed..

when  i first found out that everything in sl was created by it's users and that all these amazing places were owned by the users..that really made me go wow..

i really just stood back and looked at the surroundings each time i landed..and i still do..

wow just look at the time they put in here..omg look at this shirt!! that does it i'm buying everything!! LOL

i'll sort it out later..

the economy to me is something that is beautiful..and something all those other worlds trying to take off wish they had so they could grow as well..but they will stay where they are till they have one..

just the thought that it is possible to get known here even though it may be slim..to me that's pretty awesome..

a  little hard work and some people loving it can make it happen.we have seen it all too many times for it not to be true..and it's as true today as it was 6 years ago or whenever i got here..

so thats pretty cool i think..

i'll support that till it's not here anymore in as many ways as i can..this whole thing is just too cool to not exist..it would suck to see it  gone..and every little bit matters no matter which direction that bit goes..

positive or negative..get enough of either of those together and we are gonna feel it somewhere..

 

ETA: sorry for the edit..but a lot of cool stuff happens from this world and i tingle everytime i see something like these..because they were created  or a reslut of here..and that  makes me proud to have been around to see them before they blasted off  hehehe

like one day when they do a behind the music..we can say..omg i remember them poping up in places before they were famous!! \o/ LOL

we're like in this cool underground that is still underground in a lot of ways..hehehehe

 

 

 

 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

If you were running a for profit business and there is a law that requires you to assist in protecting someone's rights like the DMCA law requires the ISP's to do would you expose your business to the possibility of being named as a co-defendant should the "injured" party decide that court action is the path to take?  Even if the probability is remote, needlessly exposing your business to that risk is a foolish way to do business.  Yeah, technically, you are correct and an ISP cans ignore the DMCA if they think it's frivilous, false or erroneous.....but without a way to make that determination the ISP would be making a judgement without facts.  That is the problem with digital content........it's next to impossible to know who's right and who's wrong when an accusation is made.  You are saying that LL should take the risk of financial penalties without a way to know with any reasonable assurance that that risk is minimal.  The law has a provision written into it for the accused to get their content reinstated by the ISP to counter the "false" take down notice........appeal (or dispute) the claim and LL will reinstate the content.  The accuser and accused are then on their own and the resolution lays with a court outside the ISP's domain. 

They don't have a choice unless you believe a company should take risks that could very well be financially damaging.  That's not a smart way to do business. 

[Clarissa Lowell]

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

I would much prefer for everyone to have to pay a nominal user fee, then abolish the L$ along w/ private "ownership" (which is merely an illusion - LL owns or leases the servers) of  "property" (which is nothing but 1s & 0s on a server somewhere).

---

 

It didn't work in The Sims Online.

 

[JeanneAnne]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

But the problem with that, JeanneAnne, is that ultimately landowners do have to make tier, to pay LL.   Otherwise the sims vanish.   And most people need at least to subsidise the two or three hundred USD a month each sim costs either from their own in-world sales or from rentals, and on a lot of sims these need to be commercial rather than residential rentals, which in turn depend in part on sales.

It's all very well to say you'd like to abolish L$ and owning land.    I don't know if you spend much time at sandboxes and welcome areas, and have noticed a distinct difference between the Linden-owned ones and the private or group ones, but I can assure you the difference between them is primarily because the private or group ones are managed by people with the ability to control building, remove trouble-makers and so on.

But be that as it may, the fact remains that, however you might think LL should run their business, they do, in fact, base it on people paying them real money for the use of virtual land.    That money has to come from somewhere, and in-world sales a very important component -- directly or indirectly -- of that.    

Yes, if it's just a small parcel and you're only paying US$20 or $30 a month for it, then I agree that it's normally easier to put it on your credit card than worry about earning it in-world, but when you're talking about whole sims, or groups of them, not many of us are wealthy enough in RL to do that.

---

I know that sims vanish if tier isnt paid. That's what happened to me & my sisters' home sim about a month ago. The sim ceased to exist because the people who shared it got into a big fite over L$ & the person who collected L$ from those who lived there vanished ... AFTER people had paid her !! i dont know what happened to her .. not sure that anyone knows .. if they do they arent saying .. so .... did she die? or did she just rip everyone off? dunno ..

This sortuv thing wouldnt happen .. there'd be no hard feelings .. it would all just be FUN !! if not for all the bs that comes down over L$. LL doesnt care .. they only care about their corporate profit ... but people who were attracted to SL as a place to have fun get drawn into the toy economy .. start taking it serious .. get greedy & resentful & suspicious .. friends end up becoming enemies over L$. The fun drains out of SL when all this happens.

I've not hung out in sandboxes much, for a variety of reasons .. I don't enjoy building that much, altho i know how .. & iv always been able to rezz prims on our home sim & play with them there ... i may not have been able to keep them there because of prim limits but i could make things then delete them or save them to my inv .. The times I have hung out @ public sandboxes it was more for the fun of watching other people build or to witness the interactions between people there. I built a house in a public sandbox in like my 1st week in SL, basically just to see how it was done & i came to the conclusion that building things in sl was more trouble than its worth.

I think that for the vast majority of people ~and yes, there are exceptions altho those exceptions are very few relative to how many ppl play SL~ its far more time & effort efficient to have a rl job & then buy L$ than to try to earn L$ inworld. Sure, there are disabled ppl who cant work in rl .. i realize this. But i see really talented performers & DJs put their hearts into a set only to end up w/ a few hundred L$ in their tip jar when their gig is up. I took C++ in college & have looked @ LSL scripting ... i could learn it, I'm sure .. but would it PAY for me to learn it? I don't think so... & even if it did, I could make far more REAL $$ as a programmer in RL .. IF i had a long enuf attention span to stand the tedium of coding ... which i dont!

I understand what youre saying Innula, & i agree with you. But.. !! I only agree w/in the context of SL being what it is ... according to LL's business model. That business model is arbitrary & perverse. It isnt the ONLY way SL could be run. I think that SL oldbies ~& especially those who run SL businesses & have vested interests~ forget this. It's as if olbies have been so immersed in SL for so long that they begin thinking that the way SL is & has always been .. is the only way SL could be. I have nothing invested in SL besides the time I've spent in it. I came to SL only 8 months ago & I see SL for what it is: cash cow for a greed inspired corporation in a sick & declining capitalist society. I see SL & see what all's wrong with it due it's being nothing beyond LL's cash cow. I see SL & imagine what it COULD BE .. if only those who love it took it over from the sociopaths who think they own it. You are wise & correct in what you say but only within the cofines of the warped & limited business model of the parasites & sociopaths who only want your $$. I like SL but im not about to fall for LL's scam. I play for free & if LL runs SL into the ground & the grid collapses .. I'll start exploring all the other virtual worlds that are beginning to flourish all over the internet.

Jeanne

[Griffin Ceawlin]

Ugh. Why don't you set up your very own VW, JeanneAnne, and build this utopian paradise that you crave? Here's a link. Go get started.

LL is a business. They're in it for the money. Just like every other enterprise on the face of the earth.

I'm certainly not one of the 1%, and I'm probably more of a "socialist" than Obama could ever hope to be, but your sense of entitlement is beyond ridiculous.

[JeanneAnne]

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Griffin Ceawlin wrote:

Ugh. Why don't you set up your very own VW, JeanneAnne, and build this utopian paradise that you crave? Here's a

link

. Go get started.

LL is a business. They're in it for the money. Just like every other enterprise on the face of the earth.

I'm certainly not one of the 1%, and I'm probably more of a "socialist" than Obama could ever hope to be, but your sense of entitlement is beyond ridiculous.

---

What i find to be ridiculous is the uncritical cultural inculcation of people like you Griffin .. your lack of vision, your cohesion unto your own oppressor .. more sad than ridiculous, actually ..

Jeanne

[Griffin Ceawlin]

Oh, please. Go start your revolution, already. Let us know how it all turns out.

[Ceka Cianci]

oh no not another revolution..the last one it was either channle lag or mic problems or RL getting in the way..finally both sides just ended up quitting..

 

 

[Sae Luan]

Believe it or not, there are those of us in world still earning a good amount of money.. if the ability to do that stopped, I would leave immediately. The fun of SL for me is creating and owning my island and stores. I am by far not the only one that would leave if the ability to earn money and own land suddenly vanished.

I promise you, SL would feel the impact of all the creators leaving if we were no longer able to own land and earn money. I def. think that would be the begining of the end for Second Life. I also know that that is not going to happen though, so I am not worried.

[Griffin Ceawlin]

I somehow think that JeanneAnne would like SL to give out land, for free, to whoever wants it. It may or may not occur to her that the infrastructure behind SL is not free, and that LLs employees do not work for free, either.

As virtual land fees bring in the bulk of LLs operating budget (and profit, if any), JeanneAnne's business model would bring SL crashing down.

But at least those greedy corporate pigs would have learned a lesson, huh.

[Sae Luan]

That def. would be the end of SL.

I just get the feeling she is the type of person who thinks like if I can't or dont want to do it, no one else should be allowed.

[JeanneAnne]

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Griffin Ceawlin wrote:

I somehow think that JeanneAnne would like SL to give out land, for free, to whoever wants it. It may or may not occur to her that the infrastructure behind SL is not free, and that LLs employees do not work for free, either.

As virtual land fees bring in the bulk of LLs operating budget (and profit, if any), JeanneAnne's business model would bring SL crashing down.

But at least those greedy corporate pigs would have learned a lesson, huh.

---

The electricity to run the air conditioners on those vast metal server farms in Texas & S Cali ~alone!!~ costs a fortune. The servers hav2 be cooled, of course, & less expensive swamp coolers would make the humidity too high. All this hardware costs, along w/ all the other stuff necessary to keep the grid up. LL employees don't get paid nearly enough, while the parasites in management skim off way too much of what all of you who fall for their scam pay. Yeah... I understand all this all too well ..

Sooo.. LL gets the minority of SL players who've taken the bait .. who've bought in2 the toy economy .. to pay for everything while ppl like me play for free ..

Thanks! guyz .. i really DO appreciate it .. you guys ROCK !! You really do ..

Putting all your time & creativity in2 making SL wonderful for me while making LL parasites rich! How magnanimous of you !! Building & scripting & marketing all your virtual stuff for a pittance per hour ... Mother Teresa has NOTHING on you !!

Jeanne