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Lellani - five years ago things might have been worse but in the last three years since I've been a member I've just noticed things worse. I crash more - that's a fact. group chat regularly fails - fact. And if you were in world yesterday major problems for a while when half the grid seemed to go. Bottom line is, if you don't look after your existing customers along with your new ones, your existing customers who have proved their loyalty will leave. It's already happening. If you lose your loyal customers, you're left with people who may or may not stay, so you have a very dodgy customer base. This has been proved by enough businesses. By all means encourage new members but getting them to stay wont happen if they constantly crash, can't TP, see the world grey because nothing rezzes and have fewer older members to ask for advice. My LL fees are about to halve as a result of these measures. Why? because I'm not getting my money's worth. Simple as that.

The day LL does soemthing worthwhile to show it's support for it's loyal customers I may reconsider. I've long given up on a grid that works, especially if its resources will be overloaded further.

Cully, you misunderstand when I say "Never listen to your customers"-- you're taking a section of that out of the context of the whole; I said when it comes to "running your business" and "taking your business where you want it to be", you don't listen to them on how to run it. Sure, you listen to specific technical issues, and address those individual issues; but over all, no. There's a reason why 99.9% of businesses fail, because 99.9% of people don't have a sweet freakin' clue how business works, how to run one, or even how to pay attention to their markets or who to pay attention to. When a customer someone says to a business, "You should do this to improve your business!" chances are it sounds like a good idea, but it's really a bad one.

For instance, this forum does ~not~ represent the the Linden Lab market-- we're so-called "power users", and we never ever represent the actual market in terms of customers and clients. It might be a hard thing to accept, but we're not really Linden Lab's customer target base-- nor should we be.

As for the little technical problems like chat lag, they get fixed with time and patience. I'm quite sure there's people working on that problem and trying to figure out how to get around it, but if you think you have more experience to take a giant network like SL and fix the problem, offer it up..... Second Life is thousands of interconnected servers serving hundreds of thousands of people; the architexture of SL, from what I understand it to be, puts every other multi user platform out there to absolute shame in terms of size and complexity. The people who Linden Lab hires to do code work aren't exactly run of the mill programmers, they know their stuff-- and if they have trouble solving it, without literally shutting down the servers to re-code the whole thing, there's probably a good reason. So, you know, chill out, the problems will get fixed with time.

Honestly, Maelstorm, here's the deal.

You don't like my positive opinion of Linden Lab, who really cares? Do you know me? Do I know you? Do you want to know me? Do I want to know you? Probably not, so who the freak cares? You don't seem like the sort of individual I'd want to spend any time around, so you keep your negative opinion, and I'll keep positive mine. And I'll keep supporting Second Life and Linden Lab, even during those times when I don't like them, because I'm experienced enough to know things always get better in the end.

Lellani - If a business, any business, doesn't give its customers what they want (within reason of course) then it will fail. I've seen it happen enough with large businesses over the years. No, we're not all technical geniuses and no I can't put right a lot of the technical problems, but then that's partly why I pay LL so much money: to improve my experience in world as a customer. I'm sure they do have people working on the problems but some of these have been going on for three years or more, while time and resources have gone on other areas which maybe shouldn't take priority over the basics.

I run an RL business and if the basics aren't right, then I have no business. I need to make sure things work before I can attempt to build and get new customers. If I have an influx of new customers I need to be able to give them the customer service they deserve, or I'll lose them. I'm well aware that when it comes to servers like LL have there are going to be issues, I'm not completely stupid. I also know that there are limits to what they can and can't offer their customers. (We'd all like our own private island with 50,000 prims but that's a little unreasonable). What I'm saying is, the  grid is having problems supporting the number of people who already use it. The weekends are traditionally a nightmare for most of the events I've ever run or attended, and all we get told is 'we're dealing with it'. In order to grow and develop and hold on to the new customers the grid needs to be a lot more stable or they will leave. That maybe should be the priority for now, because as well as not holding on to new customers they risk losing older ones, and that's never good for business. (Again I've seen enough businesses back track on policies when they've lost a lot of customers).

LL's market is the people who log in to SL and use it and pay to use it everyday. They might focus their attentions elsewhere but bottom line is, if people leave SL as a lot are, or downsize as a lot are, there won't be much left for LL to work with.

I'm not against incentives for new customers, but you HAVE to look after your existing customers at the same time. Like it or not, they're the backbone of your business, and I can refer to a number of other businesses who have found that out to their cost.

Problems will get fixed with time eh ? How long a time ? Who's still crashing at sim boundaries ? I know I am...thats been going on for at least the 4 years Ive been here...oh and how about assorted texture flickers and problems.....those have been around at least four years too. 'The great philip' promised boundary crashes would be fixed by December -last year- of course he packed in being CEO before the December deadline came and went..and guess what we still have boundary crashes ....

I can  live with these irritations however. What I cant stomach however is Lindens trying to attract new premium members with usless little titbits while long standing loyal members get nothing....

Lets face it Lindens have made it clear that they have little regard for their premium membership anyway.

I notice however that a long last the useless questionairres which we used to get on log in have finally dried up. As far as I can see the views expressed were ignored - for years.

No Lellani I dont want to know you at all because youre one of those people whos there brown nosing pointlessly and putting down people  in a rather coarse manner who are at least arguing for a better deal for the membership.....

Cully, I also run a business in RL. And I know, that if I listened to even half of what my clients wanted, I would be out of business by the end of a year, if not sooner. 

In SL terms, each user knows what "they" want, but at the same time they don't understand the big picture. A lot of people don't get the concept that even in a business like Second Life, there are teams of people working in specific fields of expertise. For instance, the graphics guys probably know very little about databases, and the database guys probably know very little about the physical hardware in the colocations facilities, and those guys probably know nothing about the UI (and the UI guys probably know very little about the UI at this point)..... the thing is, ALL of these things are being worked out; maybe not as fast as people would like them to be worked on, but they are being addressed.

What I really get tired of seeing is people saying, "Why are you doing this when you should be doing that?" when the reality is, they are doing ~all~ of it, at the same time; they can't take programmer A and put him in slot B unless that's what his experience is because it'll make things 10x worse.

However, that said, my experience in SL, has been 100% improvement nearly every year (except that one M Linden year); and 2011 here, has seen the most positive changes I have seen since my time in SL. And, if people think its bad now, I wonder what they would have thought 5 years ago, when there were stretches of periods up to 2-3 weeks long where you could barely log into SL, and even if you managed, all you could do is stand still and chat, because everything was grey? Or, those every Wednesday updates when the grid would be down for a whole day, and then down again a couple days later for a roll back or update. Or when crossing a sim line was all but impossible, it just didn't happen on a regular basis, let alone slowly. You'd be lucky if you DID crash, because if you didn't, the sim wouldn't log you out, and you'd be ghosted for up to 2-3 hours before you could even re-log. Today, I don't crash crossing sim lines, I've crashed maybe once or twice during a teleport in the last year, and the only really thing annoying is group chat lag (and the V2 sidebar, which admittedly, I'm used to at this point and I'd probably miss it if were gone) ..... 

The thing with SL is-- being a premium member is a choice. You can have the exact same experience with SL being a basic, non-paying member as you can being a premium member. It doesn't affect what you can and cannot do. Complaining about new members getting things and old members getting little is like complaining the TV in the store shelf is 50% when you paid full price two months ago..... that's life. But, in the terms of SL again, old members get most of the same perks as new members, you just don't get the 'sales', but that's the way it is with ANY purchase, virtual or RL. Sometimes, you just gotta suck it up and say, "Damn, I missed that!"

In the end, if you don't want to support the development of SL..... then simply don't. I don't care if I get any little extras for being a premium member or not, what I get is SL itself, and that to me is more than enough to be premium for. I don't need any more incentive or motivation than simply supporting a platform I want to see expand and grow-- what I get in return is the whole experience, and knowing with my contribution, Second Life would be a little less than what it is right now.

Mael, I was relating MY positive experiences with SL; that's not exactly brown nosing.

And also, I've not insulted you personally; yet, you've called me a brown noser, said I was paid by Linden Lab for actually congratulating them on what I see as a success, and pretty much called me 'sick' in the process-- and after you said all those lovely things to me, I simply said I wouldn't want to get to know you.

So, here's a mirror, doll, have a look at yourself.

If youre happy with the service youre getting good luck to you. Me I believe in the old addage the customer is always right a bit dated I know. With Lindens however I always come away with the feeling ' youre lucky to be in sl' rather than  'we're glad to have you as a customer'....

Incidentally you rubbished the posts of anyone critical of Lindens...and in a coarse and vulgar way.

Oh and I dont like being patronised either...

 

I'll partially agree, while some of the complaints are legitimate concerns, most of them are nothing but rubbish posts, but I was in no way coarse or vulgar in any of my posts, but you will see things the way you do and there's nothing I will or want to do to change that.

And sure, I speak my mind, and I might dismiss some of what people have had to say as fluff, but I've not insulted a single person for their opinion; and certainly have not been vulgar, nor called anyone names. Some people can disagree with what people say without resorting to insults and name calling.

The mentality of "I can say as I please about you because I don't know you" is pathetic and grade school level. 

Last thing I'm going to bother saying. At this point it is a waste of time to bother. Yes, be rude and abraisive to anyone that doesn't see things your way. Call them names and shrugs off their opinions. Why? Because only your opinion and experience matter.

There is a difference between a feature being added and a feature being manditory. No matter how you spin the words they aren't one in the same. Be it mesh or the new profiles, you do not have to use them. You can continue on with your Second Life as if neither came into being rather easily. Yes, in the early days of the profiles there were privacy issues. However, now you can simply turn your feed off or put the settings as they're needed. I do not see how this is force as much as an over reaction to change.

Yes, Linden Labs needs to work on better over all customer service and support. Yes, Linden Labs need to shift some focus from new registrants to those of us whom have been Residents from months to several years. Yes, Linden Labs needs to generate lasting interest in Premium accounts. Yes, the viewer has some major issues that need fixing. Yes, land is still too expensive in terms of set up and in the following tier. The long and the short of it is: Yes, there are still numerous problems. The back log of things to be changed, fixed and added as time goes on is likely massive. The fact that there is forward momentum at all is a huge change. Just like there is no perfect platform there is no magic bullet that will instantly solve all of the issues and ease all of the discontent (and flat out ignorance).

Before we start pointing fingers at the current C.E.O lets think back on what the previous C.E.O did that we're still seeing the affects of: Like firing the majority of Second Life's staff (mainly over seas) and being the cause for a handful of known names at the Labs to simply up and quit. Let us not forget that it was under M.Linden's watch and decion that the debacle with homesteads (and land sales in general) happened. Saying that you are dissapointed in the current C.E.O for the aftermath of the previous C.E.O's decision is senseless. Take a moment to actually put two and two together: The new C.E.O has been at the helm how long and for what changes?

Second Life has little to no customer service? Maybe that has something to do with their not being enough staff? Service was sub par before, yes. But after M.Linden sacked and ran it took a total nose dive. I am not saying that the complaints are unjustified (mind, some of them really are). What I am saying is to put your blame where it is due, not on whomever has taken up the reigns or whatever employee (or in the case of particular posters here, other Residents) you come upon. The customer is occasionally right. Some customers know the difference between need and want. The majority, however, haven't the slightest clue of the difference nor do they care. The key phrase was already said: Within reason. While some things asked are within reason the time frame and execution aren't. Yes, Linden Labs is a business; however, there are differences between the kind of business they run and other businesses. They can't afford to not listen to their users, yes. Just like they can't afford to always listen to their users.

No one is saying that everything is coming up entirely roses, that Linden Labs is perfection in everything they do and have done. What some of us are saying is that we're liking the forward momentum and the recent changes that have come in their wake.

Really, taking up arms in every update posted here will not get you anywhere. You have to pick and choose your battles properly. What is the topic of this post? Is your post on topic or is it wildly off topic?

I, personally, totally agree with Lillani. Pay for Premuim or don't, that is your call. 

That said, I'm done.

I was just talking a few days ago about how great a location sharing feature would be. And here we got it. Thank you very much, Lindens:) I love the webprofiles very much. The only problem is, that it is all so hidden. To share my location I have to click the sidebar, open the profile, click the Home-button and then I don´t even see the location sharing button if I don´t click the text field. That is not good. Please position it more prominantly in the viewer. How about a location sharing button in the navigation bar? Or how about a new sidebar tab which opens a big webbased dashboard, where I can post updates, share my location and see what my friends are doing. And while we are there. How about an inworld interface to SL Answers, also a brilliant tool that is very hard to find and that most people even don´t know about at all. I would love to help other people by answering questions, but I am just too lazy to navigate there on the webpage. Please make it easier and more accessible.

agreed Kamala.. just give me more options to pay LL..i would be premium but their options are not for us all..make it easier for us to spend our money here..as it used to be..even if i dont buy sims  or premium i am a long time buyer of lindens....i am now forced.. if i decide to stay ..to do some rather creative sending of funds to others for linden exchanges which i really am not happy about..

I explore alot and  the newbies seem to be in abundance lately . i am prone to just mentor them for a bit till they get the hang of it..when i joined there were ppl there to direct me here or there or answer questions i had,back in 08..i have not experienced the crashing issus many do in here  . rather  a few time have encountered overly scripted sims and become frozen  but that is rare..tho the experience  sometimes is less desireable in a few that have lag..usually coming back at another time  fixes that for me. LL as a whole  has its issues as all companys do. but this one is more public so seems we all get to peer inside and intrepret as we see fit..saying Kudos! to sl  fortrying at least, it is still the best of its kind out there

Wow! As a long-term customer of 5 years now, I feel so very (un)appreciated after paying a full rate while new people are offered 50% off their memberships--if even for only a weekend. Does LL wish to be fair and have me forget this slight? Offer me that same deal when my premium membership again becomes due. Otherwise, I now have good reason to believe LL doesn't give a hoot about anyone who has stuck it out with them during some of its worst and most troublesome times. Why bother renewing instead of accepting the obvious fact that my loyalty is not appreciated, and never will be.

Nevermind my posting above. However, given hardly anyone will read the "fine print" of only one quarter being discounted, this is about as close to bait-and-switch and you can come without stepping over the line. Bad, bad LL. 

Ok after reading all the posts ..gripes and complements ...I must agree as an exsisting premium member I am dissappointed with lindens choices for premium member perks.. first they seem more geared for the newbie and not for the many existing members they already have. To me it kind of says ..ok new people come on become premium member then screw you once you get your newbie perks. Let talk about some perk for the existing premium members that have stuck by linden. Additionally i would LOVE  to see linden offer the many advantages that third party viewers offer ..so that the premium members that they soo want to have ..would actually want to use their viewers... i personally do not like viewer two ...it is more limited for my uses and not as user friendly as some third party viewers...so lets start with ...make lindens viewer the best possible choice of all things people use in world ...then lets talk about great improvements . that is not to say as they do now ...if you have a problem then i cannot help because you do not use viewer2 ....but you want this because you can get it here ? and use it for sl ...ok  how many people use it ? and damn if all these thousands of people use this advantage with a 3rd party viewer..then umm maybe it would be a good idea for our viewer to have it ...sounds like good buiness to me ..but then again ...i just one of thousands who would like to use linden viewer but have had to resort to a third party viewer

Haters gonna hate. 

 

You could hand some of these people deep fried chocolate coated gold on a silver platter and then they would complain there weren't any sprinkles on top.  You can't make these people happy because they don't want to be happy.

There are creators who are already doing wonderful things with mesh. I have a wire cage avatar, a couple of really nice new skirts, and a very sweet little bird that hops and flies, all made with mesh. Unfortunately, I'm not able to enjoy them right now because v3 is so unstable. So I'm holding out until Firestorm has a stable, mesh-enabled viewer (which will probably be well before LL does). Not sure why v3 is so unstable now when the beta worked just fine, but it's frustrating to have this great new feature on the grid and not be able to use it.

At any rate, thanks for bringing mesh to the main grid, I think as time goes on we'll see more and more brilliant creations!

i wassnt talking about profiles cully andel   i was talking about premium accounts.. where do they force you too join.. funny i was never forced into it

I love reading all the comments here. They make it easy to understand why Linden Lab will never do anything right - no matter what they do. I for myself can´t complain about being a premium member. I pay 72 USD a year. Therefor I get a 60 USD stipend and land tier worth 60 USD. If calculated right, Linden Lab pays me 48 USD (net win) for being premium, I get better support and now some sweet gifts. This gives me a hard time to complain...

 

If we believe the stats on how most residents are using SL, it's not hard to see that a big proportion of LL customers are in SL for long periods of time each week using and making demands on the service without the Lab seeing a cent from them.

Unfortunately, SL is not popular or  "clean" enough to attract big mainstream advertisers, sponsors and their revenue and probably LL and most of us don't wish to go that way anyway. And realistically SL is probably just not a big enough deal to charge a generalised usage fee to all its residents without significantly driving usage down.

So Tier and Premium accounts would seem to be the mainstay of LL's income from SL. Keep pushing up Tier and you make it ever harder for the landowners to be profitable, so you can't then start charging all their customers a fee just to come in-world, especially after offering so much for free for so long.

It's the rock and the hard place scenario, and I guess this is the Lab trying to get creative under pressure. I wish them luck with their efforts to add value to Premium membership and think that constructive idea-ing is probably better than mud slinging if we want to keep and improve our in-world experience. The Lab is not a charity, but it is subject to the harsh laws of supply and demand. And when it comes to paid membership, if you are dangling a carrot, you have to deliver the goods and Customer Service is a huge part of how to differentiate Premium from general membership.

I must admit I'm encouraged by many of the recent initiative I see LL taking, particularly in terms of trying to introduce more of the networking benefits that SL users are enjoying on other platforms, all of which chip away at time spent inworld.

why is bigger linden homes only available for premium members? I'm a premium member and cant get a bigger linden home

correction to the above post, why is linden homes only available to new premium members

@ Bfanglfn Button

Any Premium member can either have a Linden Home or 512 m of "free" land. The 512m are "free" because you don't have to pay tier on it, but you still have to buy the land & pay for your premium membership. If you want a Linden Home instead, your 512 m goes toward that.

 

I'm all in favor of Linden Labs getting creative with the perks they offer to Premium members. I understand that they can't run a business for free & that Premium membership is the only substantial income they get from users. So listen to what the premium members want.

1. Better tech support

2. Cheaper Tier. - Linden Lab can't lower tier & still make money, though. So how about giving us 1024m for our Premium payments instead of just 512 m? They have enough unused mainland that they'e not making money on anyway. This would be one perk that would benefit both newbies & longtime land owners.

3. Offer some inexpensive Real World goodies that also advertise Second Life. Even if we have to buy them, many long-time users would like things like mugs, T-shirts, caps or toys.  A company like LL can have bumper stickers & promotional gifts made pretty cheaply, so maybe give the annual Premium members a bumper sticker that says something like "My other life is in Second Life"?

(Edit to correct spelling typos)

 

I love when people who voice disappointment or disapproval are assumed to be insatiable or just uninformed. I'll sum up those replies thusly, "Remember, kids, if you disagree with me, it's because you're stupid and need to be shown the way. With time and teaching, you'll think correctly just like me!"

I'm tired of having to use third party viewers because LL has failed to ensure a higher standard of QA. My client worked fine until June, when sweeping changes were made that make playing on my rig completely worthless. Blackscreens, incompatibility with current display drivers, and seemingly random crashes is the price I pay for being happy-go-lucky. Maybe if I throw more positivity, happiness, and starshine into the conversation, it will all work out, but I'd rather voice my concern and disapproval and hope the reality that people like me face daily problems just trying to be a part of SL are getting impatient is enough to see real changes for SL.

Fix your client and then add the fluff.

@OpensourceObscure: Mesh is a great feature for some, but as it is, I could care less; I can't use Viewer 2.