New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Deathly Fright said:

all of the items, including the rare would be available to avis with the letter the chair is looking for, including rares. the odds of the rare being given for free are rare, but the chance of getting anything in the conveyer for free is there.

As long as no one is paying for anything, it's just a lucky chair so I'm not seeing the point or why it would be some sort of work around to the ban.  There have always been more desirable items in lucky chairs.  Lucky chairs have also always been free for the most part although some require a group to be joined.  The items themselves are free, rare or not.

[Finite]

2 minutes ago, Tetsuryu Vlodovic said:

Here's a wild idea, how about just selling your stuff normally instead of trying to nickle and dime your customers to death!?

This is how I feel whenever I see a fatpack with 50+ solid color options lazily done with no materials or anything for 2500L.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Vanity Fair said:

Hello Silas, I wanted to respond to some of what you are saying here. We chat often, and you know that I am a friend, and your current situation makes me sad. So I am saying this to you as a friend and as a fan of your artwork.

First, you are going to have to change your mindset. The gacha resellers who previously bought your products are a market that is only going to shrink in the coming years, as the supply of existing gachas starts to decline over time. You are going to have to start thinking about selling your artwork directly to the customer at a fair-market price. 

*If you are not interested in selling your artwork directly, then you will have to partner with a trusted art broker, who can sell your artwork for you, taking a percentage of the proceeds. I'm sure that there are many galleries and stores in SL who would be only too happy to take over the task of selling your work, should you decide to do so. That way, you do not have to deal with what you consider the distasteful task of marketing yourself, etc. and you can focus on your creative work.

You can still sell your items mod/trans in limited quantity with a total value that represents what you want from your work, WITHOUT you having to find buyers yourself. You are a very talented artist, and I and many others who value your work would hate to see you shut your gallery and store in Second Life. This is a big change to how you do your business, but it is not the end of the world, and there are possible solutions. 

Change is constant; it's how we respond to change that defines who we are.

Please do not leave SL! I want you to succeed!

@Silas Merlin

Please take what Vanity says to heart. I'm another that would not want to see you leave. 

Personally, I think you should try option 1* first and see how it goes. You could always branch out from there to the second option in the future or you may come up with a better option to incorporate in the future.

What I'm saying is, don't give up yet. Reach out for help. I think you'll be surprised at how many will be wiling to help.

Please, stay.

[Deathly Fright]

1 minute ago, Tetsuryu Vlodovic said:

Here's a wild idea, how about just selling your stuff normally instead of trying to nickle and dime your customers to death!?

I generally agree with this, but it seems there are a not-insignificant number of creators that rely on the money that gatchas bring in. normal direct selling doesn't generate the same money. if that's true or not, I have no idea.

there are other side benefits to having plenty of transferable cheap items like gatchas, they can be resold to people who wouldn't buy an item directly at a higher price.

[Deathly Fright]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

As long as no one is paying for anything, it's just a lucky chair so I'm not seeing the point or why it would be some sort of work around to the ban.  There have always been more desirable items in lucky chairs.  Lucky chairs have also always been free for the most part although some require a group to be joined.  The items themselves are free, rare or not.

the point is that there is also a conveyor, or traditional gatcha, that also sells the items in the chair. as you can get the item for free. the fishing game is the same as the chair, and that is allowed.

[Jo Trimble]

Limited editions.

10000 copies of 1 item retailing at 200 linden at a fair , once the last copy is gone, its gone.. Number them individually if you like.

You're gonna make money. People love rare things at cheap prices, they like the feeling of being one of few actually to own a piece.

Nobody really enjoys the gambling aspect of gatcha's... they enjoy possessing the RARE items in them. (Which aren't technically rare, just random) Make them No transfer so scalpers can't sell them at extortionate prices.

Or you can make -event- only releases too... available only for a short time at a certain place.

It works in real life, it will work here.

[Vihmakass]

1 minute ago, Deathly Fright said:

the point is that there is also a conveyor, or traditional gatcha, that also sells the items in the chair. as you can get the item for free. the fishing game is the same as the chair, and that is allowed.

Fishing game isnt same....you BUY worms to get that random fish/sum of money. In most fishing games you actually cant fish without worms. Lucky chairs doesnt have pay if not consider group entering fee to be pay for chairs what are group only.

[Komarimono]

2 minutes ago, Deathly Fright said:

the point is that there is also a conveyor, or traditional gatcha, that also sells the items in the chair. as you can get the item for free. the fishing game is the same as the chair, and that is allowed.

I think you're confusing things, or trying to change the goal posts too far.  Conveyor is already established as Gacha like, and more then likely not allowed.  And the Fishing game, gives you simple dinky little prim fish.  It's more a casual simulation game. 

[Deathly Fright]

3 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

And the Fishing game, gives you simple dinky little prim fish.

is there a hierarchy with rarity and fishing?

[Silas Merlin]

34 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Aren't you an artist though? I am.

Though subscriptions are interesting in some ways (my daughter subscribed to knitting patterns once, and got a package of 10 new patterns each month), that model could never work for me as an artist because each of my paintings? There is only one of them. That's what gives them value (besides a person's judgement of the beauty of the piece), IRL and here in SL.

I set my model up in SL to mimic RL, not selling prints/copies but one of a kind. So subscriptions do make sense for some sellers, I'd wager, very thoughtful idea.  Just as long as everyone subscribing gets exactly the same things.

[I just saw this has been addressed multiple times. Everyone needs to get the same stuff. hey, I got something right today!!!]

To me:
-Artificial scarcity = yes
-unique item = no
the reason is that you can never be sure that there is only one of your items out there : There is what is probably wrongly called copybotting (ripping would be a better, more generic term) : your item could be ripped in SL and reuploaded on some private region you will never know of, or reuploaded on opensim.
there are also god powers (a feature, not a hack) that allow such a power user to take a copy of any mesh. (not that they do, but they can).
Unique does not make sense to me for virtual goods, and if you are selling your item no-copy, there is always the chance that it vanishes in a rip of virtual space and time.
If you sell it with copy permissions, the buyer can rez as many copy as they like, therefore it is not unique.
you could of course sell it as an NFT and deliver the inworld copy of the artwork to the owner of the NFT token. but then what happens when that person sells the NFT ? you have to kindly ask the previous owner to please delete your copy ?
It does not work.


 

[Komarimono]

1 minute ago, Deathly Fright said:

is there a hierarchy with rarity and fishing?

Yes,  5 Tiers last I checked. 

It's no different then the fishing mini games you'll find in main game Titles.  Example, Ocarina of Time on N64 and other Zelda games.  Many MMO's like WoW, Rift, Final Fantasy XIV etc.  It's considered a game, not gambling.  It's meant for recreation and you've access to all the fish and options easily.

Gachas on the other hand, require you to pay each time, and pay again, and again and again...  Until you either get lucky to get the piece you want, or until you're out of L and stop.  I should know, I've thousands of Gachas I can't get rid of, just clogging up my inventory, while trying for that Rare or Ultra Rare.

[maddisonave]

So what if an event was set up with nothing but gacha machines that you got to play a specified amount of times, say 10.  It was free, but there was a cost to go into the event, then its just an event you're paying for.  Then you remove the issue of playing a certain amount of Lindens for a prize.    

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

And easily avoided if you NEVER buy something that doesn't offer a demo.  Basic consumer protection 101 and what we tell people ALL the time.  Demo demo demo.  No demo, no sale.  I always assume the item is crap and the creator doesn't want anyone to see how bad it is before purchase.  That may or may not be true but I'm not going to buy it to find out.

The only exception to this rule of thumb would be if you are already familiar with the quality if work a creator puts out. It can still be hit and miss if the creator is branching out into something new they haven't tried before but normally quality doesn't really suffer much (if any at all) under such circumstances. 

Occasionally an established creator simply forgets the demo. An IM or notecard message usually takes care of that as long as it is worded politely.

I will never understand why humans want to complicate things that aren't complicated.

[Deathly Fright]

1 minute ago, Komarimono said:

Yes,  5 Tiers last I checked. 

It's no different then the fishing mini games you'll find in main game Titles.  Example, Ocarina of Time on N64 and other Zelda games.  Many MMO's like WoW, Rift, Final Fantasy XIV etc.  It's considered a game, not gambling.  It's meant for recreation and you've access to all the fish and options easily.

Gachas on the other hand, require you to pay each time, and pay again, and again and again...  Until you either get lucky to get the piece you want, or until you're out of L and stop.  I should know, I've thousands of Gachas I can't get rid of, just clogging up my inventory, while trying for that Rare or Ultra Rare.

is there a way to buy into getting more rares when you fish? I've heard people talk about buying something that gives experience

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

15 hours ago, Silas Merlin said:

 

An interesting idea. I'm concerned though that it will just be abused. The problem isn't the rando item persay; it's the fabricated rarity. If all items were equally rare, then this idea could work well. But it creators are still fabricating rarity of items, you're still going to have people compulsively feeding money into the vendor to try and get the item they want, much like how slot machines work (they're going to pay out eventually, but you can never know when).

[Komarimono]

1 minute ago, maddisonave said:

So what if an event was set up with nothing but gacha machines that you got to play a specified amount of times, say 10.  It was free, but there was a cost to go into the event, then its just an event you're paying for.  Then you remove the issue of playing a certain amount of Lindens for a prize.    

Cost involved, thus considered Gacha.

I'm not sure why people are trying to make it so they stay though.  LL is generally open and lets many things happen, they only put these restrictions out there, because they have no choice.  If their Legal Team is saying it has to go?  It's going, Period.  And if someone tries to come up with a clever way around it, and LL gets in trouble?  Then that's where the rest of people now suffer even more.

[Komarimono]

3 minutes ago, Deathly Fright said:

is there a way to buy into getting more rares when you fish? I've heard people talk about buying something that gives experience

Experience past level 5 gives you nothing but silly titles for the game.

http://www.7seasfishing.com/stats.html

Edited August 4, 2021 by Komarimono

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Vihmakass said:

I answered to that what you stated here. 

Thank you for your answer.  I assumed it might illegal in some areas and possibly even in the US in some states.

 

It's still conducted outside of LL's purview so not something they could easily ban IMO.  

 

[ZacharyFen]

If Prize Boxes are considered gambling to LL then i guess we should get free linden since buying linden is a gamble and chance game.

 

[maddisonave]

2 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

Cost involved, thus considered Gacha.

I'm not sure why people are trying to make it so they stay though.  LL is generally open and lets many things happen, they only put these restrictions out there, because they have no choice.  If their Legal Team is saying it has to go?  It's going, Period.  And if someone tries to come up with a clever way around it, and LL gets in trouble?  Then that's where the rest of people now suffer even more.

I think for some some creators, this is alot of their income.  It's not trying to be clever, fool anyone or manipulate, its trying to find a solution to an obstacle.  If its the pay to play gambling issue at a physical gacha machine is the problem and there could be a way around it, don't we owe it to those long time creators to listen to possible resolutions?  

[Deathly Fright]

4 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

Experience past level 5 gives you nothing but silly titles for the game.

http://www.7seasfishing.com/stats.html

how is the chance of getting a super rare fish after getting to level 5, which you have to buy into, not gambling?

though I think I'm misunderstanding the fishing, so ignore me if I'm wrong.

[Katherine Heartsong]

12 minutes ago, Silas Merlin said:

To me:
-Artificial scarcity = yes
-unique item = no
the reason is that you can never be sure that there is only one of your items out there : There is what is probably wrongly called copybotting (ripping would be a better, more generic term) : your item could be ripped in SL and reuploaded on some private region you will never know of, or reuploaded on opensim.
there are also god powers (a feature, not a hack) that allow such a power user to take a copy of any mesh. (not that they do, but they can).
Unique does not make sense to me for virtual goods, and if you are selling your item no-copy, there is always the chance that it vanishes in a rip of virtual space and time.
If you sell it with copy permissions, the buyer can rez as many copy as they like, therefore it is not unique.
you could of course sell it as an NFT and deliver the inworld copy of the artwork to the owner of the NFT token. but then what happens when that person sells the NFT ? you have to kindly ask the previous owner to please delete your copy ?
It does not work.


 

If someone is copybotting my 350L painting? I can't stop them. Of course not.

Autodesk can't stop people from ripping their $4,000 software off either, so it's useless for me to worry about something that cost $1.50. 

I only sell one copy of my works. They are set to no copy, no modify, transfer. If someone has the skills (99% of SL players do not) and the weird desire to get around that, and is that pitiable a human being? That's their issue. I can't even be bothered to waste breath thinking about them. They are sold once by me ...  a single, unique item.

Best you can do here.

(Don't get me started on the whole NFT thing btw.)

Edited August 4, 2021 by Katherine Heartsong

[So Whimsy]

2 minutes ago, ZacharyFen said:

If Prize Boxes are considered gambling to LL then i guess we should get free linden since buying linden is a gamble and chance game.

 

[Komarimono]

Just now, maddisonave said:

I think for some some creators, this is alot of their income.  It's not trying to be clever, fool anyone or manipulate, its trying to find a solution to an obstacle.  If its the pay to play gambling issue at a physical gacha machine is the problem and there could be a way around it, don't we owe it to those long time creators to listen to possible resolutions?  

I don't wanna sound like that person...  But I am going to sound like that person.  If you need to rely on exploiting others to sell your product to make an income that is bearable, maybe it's time to step away from SL for a bit or take a pause and let your creative juices flow.

Many creators did just fine without Gacha.  Many that were doing fine, hopped on the Gacha wagon since it brings in massive income, since people in SL love their fashion.  People will spends ludicrous amounts of $L to get that item for their look.  So creators took the Gacha option to exploit this.

[maddisonave]

1 minute ago, Deathly Fright said:

how is the chance of getting a super rare fish after getting to level 5, which you have to buy into, not gambling?

though I think I'm misunderstanding the fishing, so ignore me if I'm wrong.

Agree, and how are the breedables not a gamble as well again?  Aren't we paying for something and not knowing exactly what we are getting, luck of the draw?  Is it the physical gacha machine itself?