Second Life Server

[Sadkiel]

Hello there. Well, since I've been around Second Life for so many time, and I've been exploring so many videogames, as a game lover myself. I noticed how farSL graphics and physics engine are falling behind of what are today's standards technologies.

Do you imagine how unlimited possibilities we would have with a more advanced gaming structure? For those who loves visiting places, interacting with others or  simply role play and have fun playing mini games around the SL. SL right now is great the way it is now, but the possibilities could be expanded as much as the SL scripting language would allow. Take a look at this. I would like to recall this virtual world which is exclusive from Sony PlayStation 3. I don't think it would be a problem to name it since it's a platform virtual world and it's not in the same item since SL is for PC.

 It's a modern graphics based virtual world for those owners of Playstation 3 in real life time. This means it has to download everything to the console, like SL does. 

Real time content, modern architecture, real time based mini-games, etc.

Would you imagine SL following the same aspect, with modern physics and graphics. This would be just great and would open the doors to even a more expanded public, since SL has many more to offer than just interaction. For example, I'm a role-player, and although I have a great experience, i feel myself a little limited. I'm a Harry Potter fan player and I would love to play quidditch in a way that only modern videogame would allow me. Think about that. 

[Imnotgoing Sideways Recognized Member]

Eh... Second Life ~HAS~ new graphics and physics engines.  Have you turned on shadows in a well built sim yet? (o.O)

And physics?  You do know that every physics function in SL is server side and has to span the internet before things take effect.  I should show you my 256 bullet per shot gun and operational though explosive crankshaf and piston project. =^-^=

Content, games, and archetecture are our responsibility.  SL is not created by some collection of hired artists.  The lab provides the canvas and we, as customers, do the rest. (^_^)

Also, you're not referring to Playstation Home, are you?  Does anyone us PS home for anything other than cussing at each other in voice chat while lifeless avatars stare into space in a fistfull or regions which all have to be pre-downloaded?  Uh... Yeah... that sucks.  I would never want SL to turn into that mess.  (O.o)

If you want SL to be pretty.  Start creating.  But, you better be good.  Here's the competition. =^-^=

https://d3li5r2routkf1.cloudfront.net/users/4d293ae890820d142700035f/snapshots/original_4f3811afd0d2...

https://d3li5r2routkf1.cloudfront.net/users/4d293ae890820d142700035f/snapshots/original_4f3814b79283...

https://d3li5r2routkf1.cloudfront.net/users/4d293ae890820d142700035f/snapshots/original_4f3817390f23...

All screenshots were taken in SL using Linden Lab's Second Life 3.2.8 (248931) Feb  9 2012 09:04:17 (Second Life Release). (^_^)y

SLURL: http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Art%20Screamer/174/28/21

[Sadkiel]

Mmm are you sure about what i mean with graphics engine? Turning everything maxed out isn't a new engine. It's just the same one maxed out. For example, a new engine would be Crytek, look for it, you'll see clearly differeces with the one SL has. And don't get me wrong, I really like SL. But this is the same since 2002 sadly. 

And not only PS Home, there's another virtual world for PC out there which I don't wanna recall but just for the record it uses Crytek engine for graphics. I believe SL is ready for a change right now and catch up with the day. Greetings

[Kaluura Boa Member]

Before somebody tell it to you in a more rude way: SL is not a game... and you obviously know very little about SL. Let me break it down for you.

Games that you can buy on DVD or online are dead things. Their end is already written somewhere in their files and even if you can wander endelessly in the environment, import new vehicles, tune the characters ad nauseam, the game will not evolve. What you get is a finished product from a game studio. The software can be optimized to the very last bit for this specific game and that is why you can have better graphics than in SL and a physics engine to go with them.

PS3Home is just like that: A finished product from Sony with nice graphics and a very limited physics engine which kicks in in some limited cases. The choice of avatars is limited, the environment is limited, anything new is decided by Sony and all you can do IIRC is to import some pictures to put in frames in some limited places.

SL is nothing like that. Linden Lab provides nothing but a bare ground on which the users build. All the content is user generated. Until a recent date, everything was built with prims. The concept is light for the network but not that much for our computers. Still, it set SL apart from games and PS3Home since the users cannot play with this virtual Lego elsewhere but in SL. And, of course, since not many users have a team of designers at their disposal everytime they rez a prim, the result may vary from unbearable to fabulous. But in the end, it does not matter if the buildings are ugly or beautiful, the users decide, not a company. We, the users, make the world.

Things are slowly evolving since LL gave us the possibility to import "real" meshes like the ones used in 3D games and in PS3Home.  But meshes are still in their infancy, nowhere near what is ultimately possible. We, the users, will make SL evolve toward graphics comparable to what can be find in games... slowly and even more slowly since there much less people which can do meshes than people which can cope with prims in-world.

As for the physics engine, Havok is quite capable and what is available to us is evolving too. The possibilities of "gamification" of SL are coming, step by step. And what is not available yet can be scripted --to some extend.

All this does not change the fact that SL is what we, the users, make it. And that "we" includes you. You are not happy with graphics, show us your building skills, improve the world, your world. You miss some mini-games, script them! If you cannot do it yourself, ask or hire somebody to do it. Make the economy work! That helps SL too.

SL is not a game, nor PS3Home and will never be because each pixel is user-generated and not the result of the collaboration of a team of designers and programmers who try their best to make sure that this pixel arrives as fast as possible onto your screen.

Besides, SL is really big. Several magnitudes bigger than the very limited PS3Home and definitively not comparable to a tiny game, tiny in size. The "marvelous" CryTek or Unreal engine would just collapse under the weight of SL. They are designed for finite games  but SL is infinite, constantly changing, evolving.

Roll up your sleeves and try to max out the current engine... while it is pulling the rug under your feet at the same time.

[Aveline Stein Honored Resident]

SL has had lighting and shadows for a while now and can look rather pretty.

Some of the graphical features you are refering to when asking for a new graphics engine are probably somewhere on a Linden plan or 'to do' list. It's just that humans will be walking on Mars before it's implemented.

Somehow i doubt that changing the engine would do much good, SLs content would grind it to a halt just the same.

SL is a creative outlet, social gettogether showcase thingamajingy with probably 50% users that do not have the hardware to run any modern game title at medium settings. The user base is small'ish and hasn't grown in ages, so chances are that you would have finished your own broomsticksoccer game in any real game engine before you'll see one that looks 'Crytek' and performs well inside SL.

[Imnotgoing Sideways Recognized Member]

Crytek is a resource hog which depends on the devs to polish up every detail just so people can get a half decent FPS.  It's not new either.  Just bloated enough to trigger peoples' "wow shiny!" response.  The VW I remember to use Crytek was Blue Mars.  Note, I say "was".  It was a dismal failure because, not unlike PS Home, regions had to be fully downloaded before interacting with them.  Add the dismal FPS and near total lack of usability for anyone other than the developers and, well, you see where that went. =^-^=

And, 2002?  Really?  Please produce a screenshot of a scene in SL from 2002 which resembles what I just posted. (o.O)

I'm not 'turning everything maxed out'.  I'm using a client which had a shader update in 2008, a developing shadow rendering ability since 2009, the ability to project a web page WITH FLASH on a 3D manipulated face inworld in 2010, and a means of allowing users to import proprietary mesh objects in 2011. (^_^)

That's a far cry from "turnig everything maxed out"... Which, sadly, is the only thing Crytek can do.  Given they dumped every possible shader/tracer/mapper/morpher tool into it without any consideration for GPU, RAM, and CPU limitations.  Almost makes one wonder why the CryEngine is used to benchmark a gaming computer... Or not... Because it bludgeons the bloody hardware to death with its bloat. (=_=)

In the end, SL is doing something no game has ever done.  Actually, it's doing a lot of things.  Given the ability to deliver and render real-time environments which can be created by users on-the-fly and managed with a physics engine that operates server-side so that every viewer experiences the same effect... Really, name a game which does that. (O.o)

One thing I often say: Anyone who comes to SL expecting a game is bound to be disappointed.  Oh well.  Want a game? Go play one. That's what games are for. (^_^)y

[Sadkiel]

 Why do you think SL shouldn't have a better physics and graphics engine? That would allow the developers to create amazing contents. I'm not telling you about a DVD or studio made games. Besides, turning shadows in SL is way bad implemented. And in essence, it's still the same graphics, the same one, with more shaders on.

What's bad with having to download a mini game (in a constant world) and when the mini-game download or whatever it's done (role play, accept please that a great majority of users in SL doesn't come here to live a second life, but to role play, such as me)  load another instance within the sim.

For that Ii'm not telling you to convert SL in PS Home. And you guys who prefers to live a life in here shouldn't be mad for that change after all, it would be all the same, with the only change that if you want a more gamer experience you just show make a little download. For roleplayer it could be great. Check a look for this, I recall PS home once again. Watch as (after pre-made download) the user launches a mini game within the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vJhNxTpt_Y

What's the problem with having the same technologie? greetings

[Hitomi Tiponi Member]

If LL were starting now with Second Life they would undoubtedly make some changes to the basic game engine, but really it does pretty well for an engine that has to work with changing objects produced in non-optimal ways, largely by people who know little about optimisation. 

The idea of pre-downloading regions is something that others have raised before, also I think better caching would help - LL are looking at a few things now, so maybe these are among them.

Second Life already uses the state-of-the-art Havok physics engine, used by many modern games, and will soon be using Havok AI for pathfinding as part of the implementation of NPCs and other goodies that are based around the ideas in Linden Realms.  Second Life's graphics may not match the best MMOs but can still be tuned to be pretty impressive, and are way ahead of most other social and creative games and at least match those in games produced using Unity.

Hopefully these changes will help towards improving quidditch and other games in Second Life.

[Etalia Cristole]

If you max everything out (Most modern "Store Bought" PC can NOT handle SL on max settings BTW) and fine tune the settings in your graphics card's settings as well  (16x AA/AF... etc) , SL does not look that bad.  I would LOVE a new graphics engine but I am not holding my breath.  My main issue with SL graphics is Avatar bodies, which look ok standing up in a pose but awful when in most other "natural" positions.  Sit cross legged on the ground and your legs are boxy, pelvis is all out of whack, etc.

Mesh in theory will fix some of these issues but as of now, you have to buy a new mesh for each outfit and have no customization options.  I did some research about mesh and while there is a chance I am wrong, it doesn't look like you will ever be able to buy a mesh body and then skin it, add accessories, clothes, etc.  The way it seems to work is you buy an avatar mesh thats entirely preconfigured.  I think this is how mesh works in all applications which is why in its current state, prim based graphics are still fairly impressive for what that can do "on the fly".

The other issue is "Show body in mouselook" which could be the coolest feature if they just expanded on it a little more.  I really want to see a setting where it limits the camera angle to those of the naturel movement position of the human head and fix the issue of looking down "into" your own shape.  Animations should also effect your view in mouselook.  Ideally, moving in mouselook should look natural, like your camera view is attached to your head which moves with your body and not its current fixed position.

LL can solve a lot of the body issues with simply making the wireframe they use for avatars more complex.  In reality they need to be about double the complexity over what they are currently.  I really hope they do this soon because as stated above its going to be a while before mesh avatars become mainstream.  Second if they could come up with a realistic mouselook view that used the physics engine correctly, things would be much better.  As stated above a lot of the visual beauty of SL is 90% based on the artist that makes the reign.  With prim count allowances where they currently set and the cost of land, most of the bland graphics are due to affordability, not graphics limitation.

On this point, I think LL needs to give a little more back to the community.  The price of hard drive storage space has dropped considerably.  Server CPU processing power is far more then it used to be and the cost has also dropped.  With this in mind, land prices are way too expensive!  IMO 512sq land should be eliminated and the minimum land size should be 1024 for the same price as 512 currently runs.  Prim count should match or exceed the area of the land, so for a 1024sq plot you should get 1024 prims.  If, and thats IF they did this, I could also see eliminating people from using 1 prim boxing scripts to improve server speed. 

Lastly, mainland needs a "take out the trash" day.   A complete reset and remake of the world.  Call me a snot all you want, if you look at SL from SL space, you can see how visually trashy the world looks.  I wish they were more strict with residential vs commercial land and had public regions with "housing authority" style government.  There should be a section of mainland with requirements when building.  Private servers can police land they rent so that one tool doesn't go screw it up for everyone else.  Everyone here knows what I am talking about; the guy who goes putting up a purple house with pink shutters and flashing lit billboard ads exactly at the height of your skybox instead of ANY other area section of space/height they own. 

Also, LL really needs to crack down on people who buy property on the mainland and then rent it out.  I am sick of having neighbors who buy a plot of land then rent it out to 20 people by making 15 prim skyboxes 20 tall in a row.  You should NOT be allowed to sublet on the mainland.

[Gadget Portal]

While it's true that SL can look good if you max out all the graphics settings, there is a valid point here.

Modern games like Battlefield 3 or Crysis or Aion can look just as good (or better) with a fraction of the resources.

A good gaming PC might run Battlefield 3 on max graphics settings and SL on max graphics and they'll look comparable. The difference? About 120 frames per second.

That part of the complaint is valid.