LL Shutting down server development? JIRA changes ...

[Jenni Darkwatch]

IMO, open vs. closed in this case has absolutely nothing to do with server development.

Whatever the reasons are, the end results are likely going to be:

* duplicate bug reports (which I think already existed)

* less knowledge of residents about bugs and possible workarounds - thinking about the recent vehicle problems for example

* possible establishment of a thirt-party bug tracking system used by interested residents, with associated loss of control by LL for security critical bugs (of which SL had a few even in the recent months).

Since the topic of Apple came up: There are a few not-so-official bug trackers for iOS at least. Some for nefarious purposes, some for legitimate concerns of developers. Apple generally seems to threaten any trackers they find with lawsuits, regardless of intent. I suppose LL could do the same. Except... all that does is drive the relevant bug trackers into the anonymous underground, i.e. the biggest iOS bug tracker right now is on an .onion server, along such "lovely" services like silkroad. Mind, that's a very extreme example, facilitated by Apples litigation-happy legal department. At least at this point in time I don't see that happen with LL.

Edit: Btw, Android has an open bug tracker. They'd be loony to not have it.

[Prokofy Neva]

I've already made it abundantly clear on my posts here and on my blog that the shutting down of the public view of the JIRA and its interactivity is a bad thing. And it is indicative of what happens in an open source cult. The notion of what is "technical" is a political one. And there's nothing wrong with that, so it should be remain open and free to comment on.

Those who care about public discussion of bugs should make a group and an alternative JIRA.

[Prokofy Neva]

Der, I'm posting in Second Life Server. So, nu?

The server code is not open sourced, herr. The viewer is, derr.

But there is no indication that *shutting down the mutual view of each other's bug reports* is the same thing as "stopping development of *server* code.

The JIRA, after all, was used for reporting bugs both in the open sourced viewer AND in the server code, with the latter arguably being its more important function because we were solely dependent on Lindens to then do something about the bugs, there was no TPV alternative.

Oh, dear. Ayn Rand and Kropotkin?! So you confess that the JIRA was an anarcho-syndicalist operation?! I thought as much! Vot takiye pirozhki!

As for "extolling the virtues of greed," that's nonsense and not worthy of taking up space here to rebut.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

Actually, Qie, we DO need that. Just like when I was documenting that share-bear bug with the returns, I had to test it many, many times, even demonstrating it inworld to others who were skeptical.

Especially in a situation where you only see a behaviour some of the time, you have to test it with controlled batches. And in fact I always keep rental boxes paid by myself so I can see what is happening to them with sim resets and the like.

The problem is in the sim, sure, aren't they all? Oh, except when they're in my "outdated consumer router"! But there's something then *interacting* with that problem in the rental script, a timer, a something, that might be nudged to accommodate the new server bug. Or whatever. I have no idea.  Anyway, please return to that other thread in Scripting about the rental box issue with any further thoughts. It happens enough times to be of concern. Others have found it too. I will try to get them to post.

As for the ecosystem -- the problem is, the ecosystem doesn't exist. Say, do you have a problem with Diaspora? Do you still want to use it? Well, good luck. That project died and went to VC heaven. It was given to "the community". So call the "community" and get your alternative to Facebook working, mkay?

I dare say that the Apple, even proprietary, does not hide bug reports because it's bug trackers and forums resemble nothing like the Second Life "ecosystem". That's because the purposes of an i-phone are pretty 2-dimensional -- you make phone calls, send a picture of your cat to Facebook, make a reminder to yourself, turn on your subway app, look at Yelp -- it's like a pocket Google and social media thing, but not really where you live and move and have your being.

In a 3-d world, you are existing more in the round in 3D and there are a zillion issues. There are purely technical problems like whether occlusion works or whether an avatar's gaze into the next sim at the child thingies causes a whoosh of bandwidth suckage or not (that last of the big bug discussion -- I am summarizing). But there are *governance* issues in abundance -- privacy, business, intellectual property, etc. etc. Many bugs concern just those governance/society issues where the emotions run the most high and notions of how economic and world systems should be wildly differ.

 

 

[Timothy McGregor]

Well said, and point taken.

Prokofy Neva wrote:

Der, nu?

 

derr.

 

 

---

 

[Qie Niangao]

---

Prokofy Neva wrote:

... please return to that other thread in Scripting about the rental box issue with any further thoughts.

---

 Okay, I've posted to that thread and will do some follow-up as time permits.

As for the ecosystem -- the problem is, the ecosystem doesn't exist. Say, do you have a problem with Diaspora? Do you still want to use it? Well, good luck. That project died and went to VC heaven. It was given to "the community". So call the "community" and get your alternative to Facebook working, mkay?

You're apparently talking about an open-source "ecosystem", but that's not what I meant at all. I'm talking about an app ecosystem -- which for a mobile OS consists of all those third-party apps that are built on the platform. I'm relating that to all the "apps" based on the Second Life platform, including all user-generated content, social usage, commerce, etc -- about which we're in violent agreement:

In a 3-d world, you are existing more in the round in 3D and there are a zillion issues. There are purely technical problems like whether occlusion works or whether an avatar's gaze into the next sim at the child thingies causes a whoosh of bandwidth suckage or not (that last of the big bug discussion -- I am summarizing). But there are *governance* issues in abundance -- privacy, business, intellectual property, etc. etc. Many bugs concern just those governance/society issues where the emotions run the most high and notions of how economic and world systems should be wildly differ. 

Exactly right.

Just to add: There's no question that an external bug-tracking forum of some sort will emerge sooner rather than later-- they're already in the works--unless the Lab radically revises this new direction, more or less immediately. I honestly don't know if a later reversal could still be effective.

The thing is, any external bug-tracking not integrated with Linden workflow will be less efficient, both for users and Lindens. Bug resolution will be delayed.

Probably worse, (as Apple can attest), this exposes Second Life to constant risk of more widespread information about bugs with hidden security implications. That is very bad for all of us.

This is a very bad direction, with profoundly disturbing consequences for Second Life residents and for the viability of Linden Lab's business.

[Prokofy Neva]

When you say "we," apparently you mean only coders, or only those cleared by an in-group of power users?

You're on the record as saying this:

"Under no circumstances should support have ever told users to 'go post on bug <n> on the Jira'. I don't know when this started, but it was just silly to have these bewildered non-tech types show up and say "me too!".

But...why not? A user who is motivated enough to report a bug and even understand a bug and replicate it is perfectly capable of posting a report. It really isn't rocket science. The "bewildered non-tech types" can follow simple instructions if m motivated because they, too, use Second Life and they, too, are affected by bugs.

The JIRA needs to be open to all. I see from Nalates blog that in fact an in-group still has access to it or at least some kind of bug reporting in the new regime?

http://blog.nalates.net/2012/09/10/sl-news-week-37/#more-8492

This isn't scientific.

[Prokofy Neva]

Open source code ecosystems and app ecosystems are really the same in their culture. I've followed both of them extensively. They have the same morals and laws and beliefs.

The app ecosystem that proprietary companies like Facebook or Apple set up with app engineers is really very much like what Linden Lab has created, with its hybrid of proprietary server code and open source viewer code. The culture is really very similar.

And again, in open source in general, the ecosystem really only exists for the traveling nomads who feel like working on something -- until they don't. Like Diaspora*. Like some rental script or old TV script  in Second Life. Same result -- users, customers in the dark, up a creek.

You can liken USG, commerce etc to sort of "apps" like the i-phone apps, and I get the metaphor, but I would submit that it still suffers from the same cultural problems:

http://3dblogger.typepad.com/wired_state/2010/11/10-reasons-why-you-dont-want-to-adapt-geek-open-source-culture-even-if-you-use-open-source-tools.html

You can continue the discussion there if you like.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

Actually, there's every reason to assume a third-party bug tracker will fail, just like every other attempt to make any other third-party governance thing really work (like the community councils on the mainland, for example, or even arguably the whole TPV enterprise).

And there are two reasons for this:

a) Just as in high school, the football jocks and cheerleaders took the class president and government positions because they were popular and others couldn't be bothered to challenge them, then did nothing except organize a snack bar for themselves, so in the rest of life -- people hate putting in the time and effort on governance, and so they get what they get.

b) The Lindens have already deftly and smartly pre-empted any third-party drive by coopting some of those with already signed contributor agreements (willing to use their real names? Have a CC on file? What were those rules?) and certain special "helpers" (what were the criteria for them?) and letting them view others' bug reports. Clever! This is Rob Linden's dream of elevating the "good citizens" on the JIRA to leader status, something I opposed because I didn't think the criteria was transparent or fair. It doesn't matter what I think. The Lindens already picked their friends who do get to see bug reports, and you aren't on that list, and I, all the more so, am not on that list:

http://blog.nalates.net/2012/09/10/sl-news-week-37/#more-8492

I still think it's worth it for a group of interested bug trackers to make a group and a web site anyway, despite these very big obstacles.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Prokofy Neva wrote:

When you say "we," apparently you mean only coders, or only those cleared by an in-group of power users?

 

You're on the record as saying this:

"Under no circumstances should support have ever told users to 'go post on bug <n> on the Jira'. I don't know when this started, but it was just silly to have these bewildered non-tech types show up and say "me too!".

 

But...why not? A user who is motivated enough to report a bug and even understand a bug and replicate it is perfectly capable of posting a report. It really isn't rocket science. The "bewildered non-tech types" can follow simple instructions if m motivated because they, too, use Second Life and they, too, are affected by bugs.

The JIRA needs to be open to all. I see from Nalates blog that in fact an in-group still has access to it or at least some kind of bug reporting in the new regime?

http://blog.nalates.net/2012/09/10/sl-news-week-37/#more-8492

This isn't scientific.

---

I was at a club recently and needed to use the rest room.  When I walked in there was broken glass all over the floor.  I exited and went and told the first employee I saw.  Now what would your response have been if they had told you to go tell a manager?  I sure know what mine would have been.

I'm there to have fun, not run around trying to find the 'correct person' to report the problem to.  The sytem should allow support to pass on the probem and then if needed the appropriate Linden can communicate with the original reporter.

But getting back to the Club, after I returned to my table, a Mgr came over, thanked me for letting them know, and treated my date and I to a glass of very fine wine to go with our meals.

Do you think that maybe this Club has earned a loyal customer?

 

[Rex Cronon]

You can go here: http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/sl-jira-issue-discussion/
There is this new group called "Bug Bashers"( http://world.secondlife.com/group/7581bf2d-29a5-4fea-7a98-7a520565d427 )(for v3 users: secondlife:///app/group/7581bf2d-29a5-4fea-7a98-7a520565d427/about )
These are two main options for getting help with the bugs you encounter.
You could also report bugs officially(but very few poeople will see them), make a new thread on the official sl forums(there is no voting, might be hard to find), write a blog(usefull if you are well known).
All these options have their own limitations:(