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Mesh clothing bad news


Hot2Trot Calamity
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Perrie Juran wrote:

So really I am seeing "mesh" for the first time.  And I seriously don't get what all the hype is about.  I can pretty well pick out who is wearing mesh.  Just as readily as I can recognise for instance, flexi skirts.  Each has their unique pros and cons. 

I think there was a lot of hype about mesh, and claims made for it, and about the effect it would have on SL, that, on any sober assessment,  were never going to happen.

I'm quite a fan of mesh clothes, when I can find items I like.   I think it really scores with very detailed items -- I've got a lovely bikers leather jacket,  for example, which is one item and an alpha layer,  when my next favourite jacket is 6 attachments and a jacket layer.  Similary, I have some belts that are far more detailed than could have been done with sculpties.

I agree a lot of mesh dresses and skirts are a bit of a disappointment, but, on the other hand,  I really like not having to fiddle with the prim layer at the front of my tight mini-skirts... that never looked right.

The OP was talking about a harness; i have a mesh one, too, which couldn't possibly have been made with sculpties.  It needed a custom fitting, too, but I didn't mind giving the maker, who is -- the creator of my harness, I mean -- a very well-established and highly-regarded content creator, a copy of my shape, and neither did I begrudge her the cost of coffee and danish for tweaking the harness for me.

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Perrie Juran wrote:

 

So really I am seeing "mesh" for the first time.  And I seriously don't get what all the hype is about.  I can pretty well pick out who is wearing mesh.  Just as readily as I can recognise for instance, flexi skirts.  Each has their unique pros and cons. 

Most of the mesh dresses I am seeing are nothing more than tossing a wrapper around the avatar and coloring it.

I used to advocate boycotting Mesh clothes until LL had the deformer in place.  But then I realized it would be no skin off their teeth.  All they would have lost was some commissions on Market Place sales.

At this point in time, I'm just not all that impressed.

1 user agrees and I *am* boycotting mesh clothing in that I won't be buying any.

Interestingly, there is at least 1 well-know dance venue that forbids mesh clothing worn in their club because they have a dress code and some mesh clothing looks like a person is naked or half-naked on non-mesh viewers or people who prefer to run their viewers with mesh off. 

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

Interestingly, there is at least 1 well-know dance venue that forbids mesh clothing worn in their club because they have a dress code and some mesh clothing looks like a person is naked or half-naked on non-mesh viewers or people who prefer to run their viewers with mesh off. 

I wonder why they don't forbid clothes and hairs made of flexi prims too?  Those have some very serious problems.  Any genuinely high class posh venue should not allow such things to enter their premises.

When a lady sits on a chair the beautiful flexi gown flops down through the legs and even the chair!

All its beauty suddenly has vanished and it looks like a silly collection of prims drooping sadly down.

THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!

 

When dancing the legs will poke through the gown.

SHOWING LEG IN A POSH VENUE!  WHAT ARE YOU THINKING OF?

 

And the flexi hair, omg!  It pokes straight through the body, aaarghhh!

PLAIN HORRIBLE!

Hey, anybody know are there any venues where the dress code accepts only system clothings?  Those have none of the problems what prim, sculpty and mesh clothes have.  They always fit perfectly, no matter what size the avatar is.  Those should please anybody.  There is even the ever so wonderful system skirt!  :smileyvery-happy:  :smileytongue:

P.S.

The above reply was made with tongue in the cheek. :smileywink:

 

The truth is that I love mesh and I wear mesh often.  I have always wondered about the venue(s) prohibiting the use of mesh.  Well, maybe it's good to have some venues like that as a memorial and historic site to remind folks of the "good old times" before mesh. :matte-motes-yawn:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

Interestingly, there is at least 1 well-know dance venue that forbids mesh clothing worn in their club because they have a dress code and some mesh clothing looks like a person is naked or half-naked on non-mesh viewers or people who prefer to run their viewers with mesh off. 

The naked part is fine, it's the badly scaled mesh that's more of a problem I would have thought.  Prims that are seens as odd shapes which are 30m across floating around an avatar would be more of an issue for me to view.

What's equally amusing is when you attach mesh clothing to HUD attachment points.  It renders on the avatar in your own viewer but to others you are not wearing it at all.  Great trick to play on someone if you create mesh, poor victim will be admiring their own looks for a while until someone will ask why they're naked.

hehee

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

We need barrels, lots and lots of barrels. And we need system hair, we can't live without that visual treat!

Yes, that would be awesome! :matte-motes-big-grin:

 

clap.gif

That reminds me when my good old friend and I were not anymore very newbies...

My friend used to wear system hair for a long, long time.  It was always in the tip of my tongue to comment about it, but I didn't have the heart to say anything.  That hair he was wearing really bothered me a lot!  Finally one day he started to wear prim hair.  What a joy and relief for me!   Phew, a glass of Champagne was due to celebrate it (secretly from him).  :smileytongue: :matte-motes-big-grin:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

So really I am seeing "mesh" for the first time.  And I seriously don't get what all the hype is about.  I can pretty well pick out who is wearing mesh.  Just as readily as I can recognise for instance, flexi skirts.  Each has their unique pros and cons. 

I think there was a lot of hype about mesh, and claims made for it, and about the effect it would have on SL, that, on any sober assessment,  were never going to happen.


I'm not sure that I would say that mesh was overhyped. I would say that it is not hyped enough. 3 major things really hurt mesh tho. The most obvious is the clothing aspect, and not having a deformer. I'll admit that I really didn't see that coming, and I expected that creators would know enough to wait or demand a deformer before investing the time to create mesh clothing.

The 2nd major aspect that hurt mesh was LL's insistance on the crazy accounting method. This ilconceived accounting held up the release of mesh, and diverted energy from more important aspects. I can understand why LL did what they did, but if 1 simply looks at the history of technology and the trends, I would think that you would quickly see that the resources, over time, would be a none issue for server resources. LL got hit hard by how they implemented sculpties, and didn't want to make the same mistake. The real issue for SL was and is Lag, which means that time would have been better spend stressing display costs, over server costs. LL could have implemented an easier to understand accounting measure based solely on polygons, and averted a ton of confusion. This confusion still goes on today, and the issue with lag has yet to be addressed.

To me, the Lag issue is strictly an issue of the lack of education. If you educated, not just the creators, but majorly stress educating the consumers and sim owner, most of the lag issues would take care of themselves. Even today, as we sit here, Display cost is not even an input on the Marketplace for consumers to know how much they are impacting every1 else with the items they choose to wear, or rez.

The 3rd major aspect that hurt mesh was the insistance, of many higher profile residents, to refuse to use the newest viewer. Don't get me wrong here. The original V2 was a POS. Actually, It was beyond a POS, it was unusable. The viewer that came out a few months before the mesh release was a massive improvement over what V2 was. Maybe so many already had the bad taste of V2 and this kept people from wanting to try the latest version. I just wished more seasoned users would have spoken out more for the newest viewer, or been more openminded. I, literally screamed about the original V2, but I knew that eventually it would become a much better viewer. All that said, I still don't understand why LL doesn't understand that the pie menu was an SL specific innovation, and why it is still not in the official viewer.

I know, I've gotten alot of heat from many people over being a huge mesh supporter, but I know that mesh is good for every1, in every single way that you could ever look at the issue. Most importantly tho, is what mesh does for creators. I'm not talking specifically about what a creator can do with it in SL, although that aspect is worth a whole article about. I'm talking about how a creator learning and making mesh opens up a whole new world to serious content creation. This is a world not bound my the confines of SL. It removes the handcuffs that strictly SL creators have. Now, maybe I am just in a unique position to see the benefits more plainly because my main content has always had these attribute of using my content on any platform. It saddens me to see that so many creators in SL still don't see the benefits and aren't taking advantage of the benefits by spreading their wings and trying out some other avenues. To me it is only smart to try to expand outside of SL, and broaden a creator's income base.

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I am not saying mesh is a bad thing, I have seen some amazing detailed work. But as far as clothing, it has no place at this point. And we talk about viewers and I myself use Singularity only because I need an RLV viewer, and Firestorm sucks. But when you see a great mesh dress on someone kneeling or sitting with an absolute invisable crotch, versus a prim dress into the ground I will take a prim dress any day. This deformer we all talk about as well is pointless. Unless you have blender or some other program you cannot change finite points of the sculptie or mesh object... Period... Someone wants to be pregnant and grow over months, can  a mesh outfit with a deformer do that? No way. Can a mans shirt change the arm size from muscular to skinny. Not without taking the mesh product into blender or such and sizing it accordingly. So to me mesh clothing is a joke. Then the inevitable alphas. Singularity only allows 1 so I have to make my own for miltiple alphas, even Firestorm you overlap 3 alphas and you ruth badly. So tell me how is Mesh clothing a good thing.

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Hot2Trot Calamity wrote:

This deformer we all talk about as well is pointless. Unless you have blender or some other program you cannot change finite points of the sculptie or mesh object... Period... Someone wants to be pregnant and grow over months, can  a mesh outfit with a deformer do that? No way. Can a mans shirt change the arm size from muscular to skinny. Not without taking the mesh product into blender or such and sizing it accordingly.

I don't think you understand what the deformer does?

Here's a dress I did as a quick test a while ago, I checked the "Deformer" check box in the upload when I imported the object.  If this is meeting the above objective, I don't know what you're expecting.  You don't need Blender for this, you just wear the dress and set your sliders inworld, the clothing fits that shape so ultimately the answer to your question here is "YES!  You can be pregnant over a period of time and have clothing morph to fit".  Or a mans shirt fit his arms and so on.  That is the WHOLE purpose of the deformer. 

The main issue is that only newly uploaded content with this enabled will work, existing items will not adapt.

Normal:

deformer normal.png

Sliders bumped out somewhat:

deformer preggers.png

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Thank you for the illustration Sassy. So that can be the, be all fix all. Should be able to get rid of alphas then if you have inworld mapping of mesh to fit over your shape. But this even upsets me more because this should have been done before or at the same time Mesh clothing was launched. So many people have spent millions in SL for slipshot crap that they have to live with.

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I can't speak from first-hand knowledge, and I'm open to correction here, but I'm told by a friend who is very involved in testing the deformer that, because of the vagaries of the SL avatar mesh itself, and how it deforms, she doesn't think it will do away with the need for alpha layers completely, though it will make them a lot less necessary and also mean we're far less constrained by "standard sizes" and the like.    It's a few weeks since we last discussed it though, so things may have moved on since.

As to stuff made before the deformer becomes widely available,  most of the people from whom I've bought mesh clothes have said they'll be issuing deformable updates in due course.    In any case,  no one has forced me to buy mesh now rather than wait until the deformer is finished.

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Hot2Trot Calamity wrote:

...this should have been done before or at the same time Mesh clothing was launched.

I think everyone agrees with that, that is the biggest oversight/don't care that LL let the community down with.

Also as Innula said, there may still be a need for alpha in some cases, it just depends on how fussy you are and how well the item deforms but the way that I view it is that no one solution will ever be perfect so where we had sculpts that had no body collision and would cut through the body and not bend but we accepted those, if the avatar joint moves in such a way that occassionally there's a little break through of the underlying mesh, is that a total fail? 

For me it's not.

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Sassy Romano wrote:


Hot2Trot Calamity wrote:

...this should have been done before or at the same time Mesh clothing was launched.

I think everyone agrees with that, that is the biggest oversight/don't care that LL let the community down with.

Also as Innula said, there may still be a need for alpha in some cases, it just depends on how fussy you are and how well the item deforms but the way that I view it is that no one solution will ever be perfect so where we had sculpts that had no body collision and would cut through the body and not bend but we accepted those, if the avatar joint moves in such a way that occassionally there's a little break through of the underlying mesh, is that a total fail? 

For me it's not.

Let's not forget about the skill of the mesh creator. They are not all equal in skill, or knowledge.

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Hot2Trot Calamity wrote:

I am not saying mesh is a bad thing, I have seen some amazing detailed work. But as far as clothing, it has no place at this point.

 

That's not a call you get to make.  If you don't like it, don't buy it. But many, many people do.  It's like saying nobody should be able to eat Chocolate Ice Cream just because you like Vanilla. You're not some God of SL, you don't get to decide what everyone else does.

You can go on not wearing mesh, and the people who love it will go on wearing it. And if never the twain shall meet, so be it. :)

The rest is just bitter ranting.

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This is correct. Alpha layers will still be needed. This is mostly because of the absolutely HORRIBLE base SL avatar which bends ridiculously. In order for mesh clothing designers to have clothing which moves well an alpha will still be needed. However there will be some cases where they wont be or where they may be smaller than before.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

LL doesn't have any financial incentive to push on the deformer.  Its no skin off their back if we can't wear mesh and have to wear system clothes. They still will collect MP commissions on clothing sold and tiers on merchants land.

 

You have apoint, and consider that LL may have already seen good reasons to allow the market to solve this with a few solutions. One example is just making many sizes, aided by a script or plug-in made for software programs. I will sort of get into that now. Then, I will also mention other solutions, mainly manual.

A software solution would basically include measuring the diameter and also using some other width and so on from the avatars slider settings for shapes. Domino Marama was already working on a avatar mesh project for blender, which is now available I believe via jass or primstar. I have lost track of it though, I am not a cothes maker and don't make much these days. But, either way there was data on avatars, already a prominent creator of very well used and loved sculpt scripts for blender. Really, LL has oodles of programming stuff going on. Surely they would see this potential, the avatar work was already under way with Domino and maybe others would follow. There are several software solutions for sculpts and avatar clothes making created by SL creators! So, yeah...maybe some sizes would be able to be made that cover many avatars or a complex system that adjusted bust, torso length and hip dimensions etc. so you could make like 100 sizes or whatever is needed to account for many possible shapes. You can resize to cover many variations.

How would you get thier size! Ha, you cought out the bit WHY and now have debunked my theory that this could be done? Maybe not. You would simply get a pic taken from a few angles by a bot (a good one) and the bot sends these to some software that uses the silloute picture or maybe just a pink/blue/green or whatever plain background to figure out the dimensions! This is a system that is retarded a bit, getting avatar data is better, though shape makers might not like this so I thought up this solution that does not expose slider data. This one just gives your blender or whatever software the dimensions needed to make a basice set of riings that you adjust your clothing to OR helps to ID an existing size that will fit. This is some tedious work, finding out what works one what avatar. But, you would get the size AND a number to type into the resizer script to get it to fit you! also, it could produce more accurate alpha maps. But, this work is tedious and I am not good enough a coder...but many are and it is all math....not easy math, tedious and lots of manual checking to make sure it is all working correctly and may require the creator of clothes to run a script on every single piece and it may take a long long time. But, alas...I am not a software engineer...so, needless to say this is not maybe the optimal solution and it may actually be easier than this. A simpler solution, that requires mainly team work and some extra (though distributed) labor on the parts of the collaborators will now follow.

Maybe LL waited to see if a tailored mesh market arrived. People loved camping (the ones who used it) and some even have models or store keepers/greeters/customer service at thier stores) and maybe a tailor who could take orders may have become a main fixture at better stores? The person would ask what shape they have, or ask for a copy. They would look up if the shape maker is on thier list, or take the shape and export avatar data for it. HOpefully, just what is needed. This then is used to generate a avatar shape that is similar enough in the modellers software off line! Simple enough, but maybe requires shape makers to post a few dimensions for things to do with torso's, arm length and so on. The software solution I mentioned is less work on the part of the clotheir, the end purchaser of the clothes but is horribly tedious for a programmer to initially do. But, this is what software was sort of designed for. But, people who own stores get traffic increase as well as a chance to impress or offer a role play experience for customers!! And, tailored stuff has a bit more of a price tag as well as exclusivity to it all. It may have been only for a few well off avatars, with a slow adoption benifiting LL and hey...the older creators or people who are not 3D software savvy could still make a buck or two and keep playing! Two birds, or more, with one stone. As more adopted better hardware, maybe made a bit more from thier ventures and maybe a few birthday presents later...well, many would have a good mesh item that was tailored as well as a few they can stretch and fit.

No, the solution seems to have been one that leaves a gal really and truly having a bigger butt when she wares that one pair of jeans...it is NOT an illusion any more, not a figment of thier imagination...no need to even ask anyone! "it's just mesh...oh well"

So, they wait for the deformer. This solution is a varient of the solution I mentioned, in that I mean it requires programmers to do much work with math and tedious testing to get it all done. Different, yes, but similar in it's need for lots of testing and figuring out. There is one twist....LL needs to be involved. The solution that uses cleint size export and maybe even an image based solution is all user makable, even the deformer sort of is...but, people want it in the main LL viewer. So, they are stuck with this. It is a smarter move than the one I mentioned, but I don't get why store owners hate taking custom orders and tailoring. I mean, they can even use a bot to take the orders. The issue must be that the deformer makes more sense to them, was faster to market than any other and basically....who the heck wants to make a system with that much code for SL when there is almost zero money? Qarl even had an amount to pay him for him to start! Seriously, this is a bit of work and there are more interesting things to work on, things that pay as well....lest we forget our addiction to not dying and not eating ramen and living in a card board box lol. SO, yeah....why take custom orders when a deformer works? But, alas....traffic, roleplay and so on may have filled in and kept the old fashioned painted cloth makers in business as usual loonger. 3D is a bit odd to do, not impossible. But I think it is a bit slower for some to learn, so the 2D painting on layers works for enough creators to here maybe L figured mesh was only to be tailored for the elite or really devoted fashion fans?

Either way, I am rambling; not to mention redundently so! I think I already covered traffic as an incentive, a proven one at that!

Other solutions may be around in some peoples heads to. Possibly even that mesh was not really meant for clothes as much for other things, clothing already being covered more. Plus, many avatars are different dimensions but are actually very close in basic dimensions to the point many say they all look to alike!!! Maybe this was a solution they expected, that cotheirs would backe a standard set of several shapes they provide for that cover the main body styles? Ah, here I go again....no lists of body size and styles, just a quick bye and I will be now on my way!

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