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Mesh Vs Sculptie


Moo Spyker
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Just thought i'd share something I wrote up (posted it in a reply somewhere but deserves to be its own post).

This is what I wrote up BEFORE I learned about the prim costs scaling up with size and that LODs all combine into the cost of the prim count... if Linden Labs does mesh right these would be the advantages over Sculpties... Well currently these advantages still apply to small scale items like AV's and accessories and small physical vehicles... (I have other posts about how mesh wont be of much use to me on large scale builds)

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    When Mesh is fully released it will make Sculpties 100% obsolete. No matter what your opinion is its a fact that Mesh is better in every single way then Sculpties. Let me walk you through the details on exactly why that is. Here is a brief lesson about video game graphics in general. Everything you see in here is made up of "Polygons". Prims and Sculpties are all made up of them. Your computer graphics card is what is used to display all of these. The more polygons around you the more work your computer has to do to display them. So the lower the polygons the better and faster your computer can display them. For those who would like to see the polygons in world you can go to your Preferences in the Advanced tab check "Show Advanced Menu" and "Show Developer Menu" save and exit the window and then press Ctrl + Shift + R. It will go into wire frame mode, press it again to exit. You can see all the polygons behind the scenes. A bit more in depth, a Prim, Sculptie and Mesh are made up of polygons. A polygon is made up of 2 or more triangles. A triangle is made up of 3 vertices (vertex). Vertex > Triangle > Polygon > (Prims, Sculpties, Mesh).

    So with Second Life a prim box should have 6 polygons because it has 6 sides however these have 54 polygons because they use 9 polygons per side to work with the prim system such as hollow, taper, cut, etc. With Sculpties every single Sculptie no matter how simple or complex, no matter how large or small, they all have 1024 polygons... This is because they use a 64x64 or proportional texture to use the colors of each pixel as a position for each vertex. So Sculpters, myself included, would simply "hide" unused vertices which works to create nice looking Sculpties but still puts more stress on the graphic card. So say you want to make a complex shape that looks like 2 boxes and save prims so you use Sculpties. Sure you saved on prims on the sim count, but your hurting everyone who views it with the high polygon counts where as with Mesh you could easily make the shape in 12 polygons vs 1024... Do you see already how inferior Sculpties is? http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/meshvsculpt.jpg/

    The biggest thing Mesh is introducing is the ability to upload a "physical" model along with the visual model. Here is a example of a physical model http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/dropshipcollisionmodeld.jpg/ the blue box is the physical model and the white ship is the visual model. A physical model is what your AV is actually walking on, it is completely unseen. Physical models take up a huge amount of computer processing power. Most people have never noticed that every single Sculptie uses a sphere as its physical model no matter what the shape. So say you had a Sculpted square floor. Behind the scenes the physical model is round so you would fall through the corners of the floor so you basically have to use yet another invisible prim to make the floor solid. They do this to save on computer processing power and simplify the physical model. With Mesh you'll be able to custom fit your physical model to the Mesh which will save a hundred times more on computer processing because on a simple Mesh floor you can have the physical model 1 to 6 polygons instead of a sphere... Second Life also splits up the visual and physical aspects of the Mesh so physically moving vehicles such as cars, airplanes, spaceships can has a super low physical model but a extremely high visual model. Ive seen a 150,000 polygon ship take up only 13 prims physically and was able to be flown. That's equivalent to 150 Sculpties... that's INSANE!

    Another huge thing Mesh has over Scultpies is the ability to upload several LOD's (Level Of Detail) models. What these are is when you set your objects graphic setting to low, medium or high you can have a individual Mesh for each... So on low a wall in a house could be just 1 polygon. On medium it could have the baseboards and trim modeled in. On high you could go as far as to model in cracks or outlet plugs in the wall... This saves so much for people with lower end computers and you have complete control on how each setting looks. On the other hand with Sculpties SL simply reduces that 64x64 texture down so they have less resolution. Which on the lowest setting on most Scultpies I have are not even recognizable...

    Yet another thing Mesh has over Sculpties is how smooth they can look visually. The vertices in a Sculptie are all "snapped" to a 256x256x256 grid when they are uploaded here and do not have any decimal places. Its 256 because it uses the color of the pixels. The color range is 0 to 255. I make large ships and the exteriors are always very bumpy and rough looking because of that limitation. With Mesh I've already seen cars that are mirror smooth because Mesh uses a decimal point system when it places the vertices.

    Last major thing I can think of is Texturing. You will now be able to texture the correct way with Mesh. Since the max upload size currently in SL is 1024x1024 the highest resolution per polygon on a Sculptie is 32x32 pixels because you have no control over the "UV" mapping. UV mapping is basically how the texture is laid on top of the model. With Sculpties you are stuck with the default UV mapping and cannot edit it, instead you have to texture around that limitation which almost always creates a loss in resolution. With Mesh you will be able to apply a 1024x1024 to each polygon if you wish, meaning greater resolution. Here is a visual example http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/meshvsculpt.jpg/ as you can see it only takes 3 texture images all compressed into the same texture to make up the Mesh object. While the Sculpted texture needs a instance of every texture laid out again and again over 25 of the original 3 textures had to be duplicated out on the texture because of the lack of UV editing... Not to mention the polygon difference... The end result is visually the EXACT same.... so why use sculpties any more?

Here's a sum up of the FACTS about the pros and cons of each just off the top of my head.

Mesh Pro's:
- Most people who Sculpt already use programs that can do Mesh such as Blender and 3ds Max
- 1 to 64,000 Polygon counts per object = total control
- Ability to make custom physical models
- Physical and visual prim counts split up
- Low end computer friendly with Level Of Detail models
- Better and smoother looking
- Faster building times
- UV mapping

Mesh Con's:
- Higher upload $L costs

Sculptie Pro's:
- People are already used to it
- Low upload $L costs

Sculptie Con's:
- Every sculpt is 1024 polygons
- Sphere physical models
- Lost resolution on low graphic settings
- Slow building times (average sculptie for me takes at least 1-2 hours)
- No UV mapping
- Very graphics card intensive
- Creates tons of computer lag for low end users
- Bumpy on long smooth surfaces

About Me

    I've been using Sculpites ever since they first came out you can see my line of large ships I create have been with Sculpties since SL introduced it so I know a thing or two about them. I've learned all the tricks and techniques to creating with them. Ever since the beginning I have hated the Sculptie system. I've used 3ds Max in RL for 9+ years previous to SL and the way you have to work wit Sculpties is everything wrong about content design for video games. There is no optimization or concern about triangle or polygon counts what so ever. I had to adapt to it to be able to make decent looking stuff in here. With Mesh coming out I am very excited to actually be able to model the REAL way now!

Moo Spyker

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I don't think the jury is out on that yet .... Well crafted Meshes are coming our way and we'll see how they stack up in link sets.... 

On the other hand...  Poorly crafted, stand alone meshes.... I agree ... Sculpties will win there....

So... choose your weapon wisely.  

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Although i am completely pro mesh, i still have an eye on Sculpted prims ;-) So i would like to mention some properties of sculptied prims which should not be overlooked:

 

  1. Sculpted prims face counts range from 16 quads up to 1024 quads. So it is no longer true, that sculpties "always" consume 1024 faces. This has changed when oblongs where introduced.
  2. Collapsed vertices on sculpties are removed from the mesh before it gets into the renderer. Hence collapsed vertices are effectively not processed, hence they do not realy waste render costs.
  3. Since sculpted prims have a fixed UV-map the actual amount of data that needs to be transfered from LL to your viewer is by far smaller than what needs to be transfered for meshes.
  4. Creating a mesh needs a lot more skills than creating a sculpted prim.
  5. Creating the different LOD's for meshes is some work if you want to make it optimal. Of course there are some automated or at least half automated tools around which help to create LOD's... but you must take care of them by yourself. Only in rare cases the automatic LOD generator in the Mesh importer creates acceptable results.
  6. Having the "possibility" to create your own UV-map comes with the "necessity" to actually do that. And sometimes it is not as straight forward to get a good UV-map, as you might think.

You are of course right, meshes give us all sorts of benefits and freedom. But with freedom comes responsibility. So we get much more tasks on our desk before we can publish a (suitable) mesh object.And after having worked with meshes for quite a while i still see that making Sculpted Prims takes much less steps and needs much less skills, compared to mesh weaving.

From the current experience i hear and read during the last few weeks, i learn that (currently) meshes are well suited for small up to mid range (below 10 meter) objects and attachments. Large objects are excluded because of the high PE. I do not know why it is so. But thats how it is. So people who want to make large objects, are (currently) not very happy with mesh. All others are quite happy (or could be).



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I really don't think mesh will make sculpties obsolete, any more than sculpties made prims obsolete. each has strengths and weaknesses. It's down to prims vs detail vs skill, and using the strengths of each. I still use the kani avatar, which is made entirely of prims, and still looks better than most of the avatars made from sculpties. In fact that's one of the strengths of the kani avi; the individual parts can be modded. This won't be the case with mesh avatars.

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Just FYI I work with mesh and sculpties in 3ds Max. (which in my opinion is a very simple to learn program, took me 2-3 months to master everything I need to know)

1. Last I heard it is proportional and always equals out to 1024 polygons like 32x32, 16x64, 8x128, 2x256. I never knew it could be anything else.

2. Never knew that nice.

3. That is true but with both it only occurs once while it is downloading. Which the texture sizes themselves can be made 4 times smaller because your able to overlap UV's on faces like in my picture example I showed. So with a sculpt to get the same resolution as its mesh counterpart could be something like 1024x1024 for the sculpt texture verses maybe even as low as 256x256 for the mesh texture. The end result would be the same resolution on the model but a 16 times smaller texture size in the download... So in the end its still a huge benefit to mesh over sculpties...

4. For me this is not true AT ALL... Sculpties are such a pain in the ass to work with. The way I make them they require planning to lay out properly to guess how many faces to "hide" and guessing out how many parts the sculptie will have. You are limited to start with a plane, cylinder, or sphere, or similar shapes with a fixed polygon and vertex count. You cannot use a single tool such as extrude, weld, anything or the UV map will get screwed up and will not be able to upload. You are not able to delete lines or vertices or add anymore... Where as mesh you can put a box down and begin extruding, welding vertices, creating and deleting lines, vertices, anything and everything and have a load of tools at your disposal (depending on what program you work with) The average sculptie I make takes anywhere between 1 to 4 hours.... with mesh I can pump high quality items out that look better then sculpties in a quarter of the time. The advantages of mesh over sculptie are endless in my experience...

5. This is also not true... The SL uploader generates out all your LOD levels its only an option to make the manually which there again is way more control over sculpties... Scultpies are just reduced in the texture size so you have no control over what they will look like. My sculpted ships viewed on the lowest object setting are not recognizable at all...

6. I don't really understand that at all because even sculpties you have to map out and lay out your textures on top of the sculptie. You still have to do that in 3d or 2d but its the same thing you can see how I had to duplicate and paste the textures over the sculptie. Mesh is more complex in the sense that you can UV map and unwrap the textures on individual faces of the mesh and scale and position them independently, but there is still the complexity with the sculpties as well...

I'm not trying to sound like I know everything but from my experience all the points you made mesh still has them beat. =P

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I agree with that but LL seems to have other things to say. In a test I linked a mesh with a sculpted linkset and the sculpties were then treated as if they were mesh in terms of PE counts and increased the prim count significiantly...

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Moo Spyker wrote:

I agree with that but LL seems to have other things to say. In a test I linked a mesh with a sculpted linkset and the sculpties were then treated as if they were mesh in terms of PE counts and increased the prim count significiantly...

*very* useful bit of information to have, thank you.

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"1. Last I heard it is proportional and always equals out to 1024 polygons like 32x32, 16x64, 8x128, 2x256. I never knew it could be anything else."

I'm going to put this here because it always takes me ages to find the link in the archive*. It shows the dimensions of the quad arrays produced (s x t) by different sized maps (w x h), and how they are subsampled (or not) at lower LOD levels. This has been the case since the oblong sculpties came out.  Before that, small maps were interpolated to behave like bigger ones. For a long time the very small sizes were not usable because of a bug in the lossless compression in the kdu jpeg2000 library, but this has now been repaired.

ETA *not the archive ... it's in the jira somewhere.

sculpt_calc_mesh_res_dom.png

 Notes: w and h are the width and height of the sculpt map in pixels. s and t are the numbers of quads in the flattened out version of the mesh generated from the map. Tha isn't the same as the number of vertices, except for the torus topology that is stitched at both top-to-bottom and left-to-right edges. For the unstitched direction, there have to be n+1 vetices where there are n quads. The pixels specifying the vertex positions are on the even-numbered pixles (starting at 0). The "extra" one is put in the rightmost or topmost pixel column/row. It;s the need for that extra pixel that forces the map to be twice as many pixels as there are quads in either direction.

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Mylar wrote:

In fact that's one of the strengths of the kani avi; the individual parts can be modded. This won't be the case with mesh avatars.

Actually, although we do not have access to all the sliders, many of the sliders that have to do with changing body part lengths, in the viewer, will also affect a rigged mesh. Now, imagine if SL supported all of the body shaping morphs in the viewer on a mesh avatar. You'd basically have as much variety as you can have with the default SL avatar but for mesh also. That is pretty dang impressive for any game engine. Let's hope LL works on that.:smileywink:

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Medhue Simoni wrote:


Mylar wrote:

In fact that's one of the strengths of the kani avi; the individual parts can be modded. This won't be the case with mesh avatars.

Actually, although we do not have access to all the sliders, many of the sliders that have to do with changing body part lengths, in the viewer, will also affect a rigged mesh. Now, imagine if SL supported all of the body shaping morphs in the viewer on a mesh avatar. You'd basically have as much variety as you can have with the default SL avatar but for mesh also. That is pretty dang impressive for any game engine. Let's hope LL works on that.:smileywink:

yes, I hadn't thought of that, and I'm hoping that works as well. What I was referring to though, for example, I don't like the feet that come with the kani avi, so I detached them. I didn't like the default eyes, so made my own, etc etc. A mesh avatar will be one piece.  Granted, this avatar was well designed from the start, and I'm just going to assume that there will be smart and talented mesh designers out there as well :matte-motes-big-grin:

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Thanks for sharing. I was excited about modelling 'the real way' too. I had plans to leave sculpts behind me and concentrate my business around meshes. But I changed my mind, because of PE.

Though it has much more advantages to use mesh, the arguments for mesh are just ´a lot of technical bla bla´ to the average costumer. We don't only operate in a 3D program, we also operate in the economy of SL. People who buy our merchandise care about: Does it look good? Is the prim count low? Does it have an affordable price?

I mainly make one prim objects. For my objects the primcount of meshes will at least be double as high as for comparable sculpties. When the object uses a script the primcount will be four times higher then a scripted sculpty. Rezzing a prim costs money. Mesh is simply too tier expensive for the kind of merchandise I offer.


For a while I was very disappointed it packed out this way with mesh. But now I have a new strategy for my business. We will simply stick to the good, old, prim low sculpts for rezzable objects. The only segment of the market we are going to develop meshes for will be  avatar attachments.  Meshes are super... as long as you don't have to rezz them.

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For your business model, and relating to specifically 1 prim items, you are completely right. Oh, and really large items. But... any thing more than 1 prim, will have fierce competition with mesh. Creating box type physics boxes, and tweaking LODs in the correct way, will get you equal to less prims in most cases.

Earlier in the year, I created a crappy sculpty zombie for my combat system. It needs, at least, 7 objects, so that I can animate it. The sculpty version has 8 prims, but I could have gone with 7. The mesh version has 9 objects, cause I added more parts to animate it more realistically, and costs 5 prims when they are all linked. So, in the end, the mesh version will be 6 prims but 9 objects, versus the 7 that I would have to have using sculpts. AND..... all those mesh objects are textured with 1 UV map. The whole zombie is on 1 1024x1024 texture. This is way more efficient than any sculpty zombie could ever be.

Just saying, If you really work the system, you can get better results than you could ever get with a sculpt.:matte-motes-wink-tongue:

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I have developed a strategy to minimize PE for medium sized objects (furniture and avatar sized items)..

  1. While modeling, keep it as low poly as I can without it distorting or looking blocky.
  2. Retain great detail or the same as high at medium lod.
  3. Go for lowest possible shape retention at low lod.
  4. I don't even care about shape at lowest, I want a number under 20 triangles at this level (unless it is an avatar attachment, and then I want the shape to be retained).
  5. Make sure you make a physics shape. I almost invariably use a simple mesh cube that approximately covers the mesh.
  6. Once uploaded, link it into the linkset if it is something that will be linked.
  7. Set the root prim of the linkset to prim or convex, and then set the child prims physics type to "none." (This way only the physics of the root prim matter.

I also plan to put out signs around my store and include a notecard with my products explaining LOD briefly, and providing a recommendation to increase LOD switching settings (and instructions how). Here is the sign I made, and if you want to use it, please feel free to.

LOD Sign.jpg

 

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I was thinking more about your post, Madeleine. If you are making things intended to stand on their own in world, like a chair or a lamp, and it is not likely to be linked, then I think you would do best to make it as a sculpt if you can make it nicely as one prim. If it will be 2 prims at least, then consider mesh, for you can get better detail where you want and need it and make it look nicer.

If you are making things designed to be linked into mesh builds, like window frames, arches, pillars, corner brickwork, etc. then make it in low poly mesh. Once linked to other mesh, these things can count for less than one prim.

You will have to include warnings though that linking your mesh parts to non-mesh can increase the prim count of the non-mesh parts substantially. The customer will need to be educated.

I do see mesh windows and mesh parts being made for buildings to be problematic, because I think people will want to build using the new larger sized regular prims and link sculpted or mesh parts to it. As it is, those building with regular prims should only link sculpty windows and parts to it, and those building with mesh should only link mesh parts.

However, I have linked mesh and sculpty and regular prims together in a small townhouse and still got a lower prim count that I did for the same building without the mesh walls. The problem would come in if you then link in a spiralling staircase made from a cut and twisted torus. This could easily happen for people commonly make spiral staircases this way. I have not tried this, but I think then your PE could explode.

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Moo Spyker wrote:

5. This is also not true... The SL uploader generates out all your LOD levels its only an option to make the manually which there again is way more control over sculpties... Scultpies are just reduced in the texture size so you have no control over what they will look like. My sculpted ships viewed on the lowest object setting are not recognizable at all...

Sorry for beeing not so clear about what i meant:  IMHO in most cases automated tools create questionable results from an artistic viewpoint. How can an LOD reducer ever know what reduction will make sense ?From my experience i need to add extra work to get good LOD meshes. With Sculpties i only can create them with LOD in mind. And there are enough tools around which help to achieve that (like Multires and Subsurf modelling with Blender)


Moo Spyker wrote:all...

6. I don't really understand that at all because even sculpties you have to map out and lay out your textures on top of the sculptie. You still have to do that in 3d or 2d but its the same thing you can see how I had to duplicate and paste the textures over the sculptie. Mesh is more complex in the sense that you can UV map and unwrap the textures on individual faces of the mesh and scale and position them independently, but there is still the complexity with the sculpties as well...

Again sorry for beeing unclear: I meant the creation of the UV-layout itself: For sculpties you have no choice. For meshes you must create it by yourself. And it is not always clear (to me) which layout i should choose. So here is another knowledge spot to be mastered for mesh...

Please don't missunderstand me. As i mentioned, i like mesh very much and it is realy fun to learn more about how to work with them. But still i think that getting a good and efficient mesh needs a lot of extra work (surely for me and probably for many other people too).

Of course there are always people who just "get it" or have experience, or simply have found the right tutorial at the right time...

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Vivienne Daguerre wrote:

I was thinking more about your post, Madeleine. If you are making things intended to stand on their own in world, like a chair or a lamp, and it is not likely to be linked, then I think you would do best to make it as a sculpt if you can make it nicely as one prim. If it will be 2 prims at least, then consider mesh, for you can get better detail where you want and need it and make it look nicer.


I make things like a bottle, a book, a lipstick, a sack, or objects like 'four pillows in one prim'. When I make two prims objects they are ment to functions as independent parts, for example a jewelry box with a rotating lit, so the box can be opened and closed.

When I would make such an object in mesh I still need two meshes. I don't know what the PE count would be, when I link them I did not try yet, because when it comes to rotation appears another problem for me: I cannot set the pivot point in mesh yet. 


Vivienne Daguerre wrote:

If you are making things designed to be linked into mesh builds, like window frames, arches, pillars, corner brickwork, etc. then make it in low poly mesh. Once linked to other mesh, these things can count for less than one prim.

You will have to include warnings though that linking your mesh parts to non-mesh can increase the prim count of the non-mesh parts substantially. The customer will need to be educated.

That is also a point. How are you going to market those kind of objects? How is a customer suppoosed to understand what the prim count will be for his specific use of the object?

You will need to tell your customer things like:

When rezzing the mesh in size A the prim count will be Z

When rezzing the mesh in size B the prim count will be Y

When linked to a box the prim count will be X

When linked to sphere the prim count will be W

When linked to torus the prim count will be V

When linked to a combination of boxes and spheres the prim count will be U

When linked to a mesh the prim count will be T

When put in a script the prim count will be S

When linked to a scripted prim the prim count will be R,

etcetera...

 

How am I suppoosed to answer questions like: I have a bathroom set that consist of 15 prims. It has a tap with running water and animations. When I buy your mesh 'liquid soap' what will be prim count be after I link it to my bathroom set?

 

It's all way to complicated for the sector of the market I'm working for.

 

Apart from the lowest possible the prim count 1, that cannot be beat by mesh, it's also very clear to the customers that a 1 prim sculpt will stay 1 prim while working with it. Whether you link it, or script it or resize it: 1 prim is 1 prim.

And when someone wants to link my sculpts to a mesh, it is not my responsibility to educate him about the prim count. I just can send him to the mesh maker who can explain him all about it :)



 

 

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Madeliefste Wrote: "When the object uses a script the primcount will be four times higher then a scripted sculpty."

I was shocked to hear this and logged onto the test grid and added a script to one of my meshes I had created.  It did not increase the prim count.  Am I missing something?

If LL increases the prim count for any mesh that has a script in it that be insane.  I hope that I simply miss read what you had wrote and that my experiment with my mesh holds true.

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I am in the same boat as you Moo since we both make large ships using sculpties.  I was so looking forward to switching to mesh for all the reasons you have said but the PE for larger mesh is making that impossible.  :matte-motes-crying:

Only good thing I can think about the PE costs is fewer and fewer people will take the time to master sculpties in favor for mesh.  A few will make large ships out of mesh but the prim costs will be so high I am sure they won't sell much and give up so less competition.  I'd rather have large mesh with a reasonable PE cost and more competition but have to look at the bright side.

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Cathy Foil wrote:

Madeliefste Wrote: "When the object uses a script the primcount will be four times higher then a scripted sculpty."

I was shocked to hear this and logged onto the test grid and added a script to one of my meshes I had created.  It did not increase the prim count.  Am I missing something?

If LL increases the prim count for any mesh that has a script in it that be insane.  I hope that I simply miss read what you had wrote and that my experiment with my mesh holds true.

Adding a script to a mesh doesn't make it automatically 4x the PE. However, adding a script can increase the server cost metric. The final PE is determined by which metric is higher out of streaming(download), physics and server costs. So, it depends what those other numbers are if adding that script makes a difference to your final PE.

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It is harder to make good sculpts than make good mesh.

If you import it into a program that supports Collada export then you have maybe 100+ tools for modelling, sculpting, texturing, animating and so on. All we would need is files for the animation rigs for each program to get the several offerings out there to work. I have read some workflows and know that many people just do not use one software package, even though it is very possible. There are some things that work better in some programs.

 Sculpties are so restrictive that they stop you from working quickly or using software that might do the job faster. Bump mapping is the same in SL, it is just not used so many times by most users because it doesn't work. Add to this other materials issues and you see why some like other game engines...but, alas...SL is not really a game engine first and foremost, it is a social platform....made on a game style platform.

 

I will not get into why I am sort of confused over mesh and all the changes and rules. I think it is to odd, to little to late and basically...who cares? The servers get faster and cheaper, the tech drops and all we see is prices stuck and no ability scale. To make up for lack of ability to scale we see work done to squeeze money out of people that makes suclpties look like planned obsolesence to make more money. But I know much of the revenue is from land rentals, and this will be hopefully an area where people will be able to hang on with better pricing....but, that doesn't seem like it will be here any time soon. So, we will keep seeing them try to squeeze money from wherever they can. I can have more fun for less in other game engines....so, I guess I will end up there more than here. 

Mesh is rather....sort of not a big deal, kind of a to little to late sort of feel to the whole thing.  

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