Fitteed mesh still doesn't fit and to rig you need an avatar that deforms like in second life

[Astrid Kaufmat]

For those who had missed it I tried to make a kit to make life easier for those who want to be plugin free like me to rig with freedom. You can check the old pose here and here.

Since then I've been doing some experiments to test how good that could be, even if it was away from the logic of getting an avatar that deforms like in secondlife, because in that experiment using the weight given on wiki I just tried to reproduce somehow the bones movements very very approximately, after all it was a ptototype an experiment that would lead other tests and other experiments.My test has been run on boots this  to make it simplier to observe and reproduce, hence in lower leg we have to deal just with one collision bone, that after all in my prototype is the one that for sure moves more alike to SL ( yes cause for boots, to be realistic you may want to use only LOWER_LEG as collision bones, avoiding to get squashing/melting feet if they play with sliders related to collision bones).I thought that cause my kit was just a first prototype, like a prototype car or engine it could give no results at all, instead in betagrid I was glad to see that at least for boots I got some results, the boots somehow were fitting several shapes that I had in my inventory. It was too early, anyway, before yelling hurray. I made my own stress test shapes. In particoular for boots I used bodyfat= 100% and legs muscles 100%. Using  this stress test shape I noticed that I would get the mesh not properly following my avatar's leg, because somehow the avatar leg became wider than my boot and it was screwed. The fiirst thing you might think : ok let's fix it trying to add more weight on the upper edge of the boot where this happens. Wrong by doing this I gotthe upper edge getting pushed down away from lower leg ( cause of a blindfolded rigging just adding more weight). This already lets you understand how much esssential and important is having  in your 3d software an avatar that deforms like in second life if you want a good quality fitted mesh.

I am a beach... (love to swim) so I did more, opening my big list of sites and blogs I picked those who openly declare in their blog to use this or that plugin for fitted mesh to rig, then I picked from their stores on marketplaces all the demo boots that I could have got ( boots rigged for fitted mesh specified also in the marketplace page). The surprise is that even wearing their alpha correctly even using anything given in the box, when I worn my bugger shape ( 100% Leg muscles and 100% body fat) the lower leg went through their boots. I was like wtf then it's not only matter of my kit that its far away from being perfect. there seems to be still something with fitted mesh not working. Well the whole fitted mesh thing is based on a forced hack then become standard, but still a stretched, forced hack.

Why am I saying this? if you check the wiki page where linden lab has posted the list of all the bones affected by deformers yo can see that for body fat Lower_LEGs are not mentioned, while if you open your secondlife viewer and watch how those bones are modified and scaled while you switch body fat slider to 100% you can see that. That's not all if you check the knee angle slider.

Tweaking the weights of the lower body to react properly when the  UPPER_LEG and LOWER_LEG are rotated to reproduce better what happens when yo move the knee angle slider can bring at least can potentially bring you to an unwanted thing on your knee when your legs get scrawny

What could this lead to?

For long pants and long gowns, anyway anything rigged mesh that covers your whole lower body hidden with an alpha layer, no troubles, but for shorts or pants that would be long enough to cover your knees this can "potentially bring to some unwated results" for some shape sizes. In fact in my old mesh kit prototype,to make the avatar deform like in secondlife when the legs get scrawny I had to use a morph to reproduce those spheric knees and at same time keep good weights to make the mesh deform and follow properly the UPPER_LEG and LOWER_LEG bones during the use of knee angle slider. If you think that I am the only mad saying this, then check this video at the end of it, where Cathy Foil is explaining such a bad iussue guessing the rotation of the UPPER_LEG and LOWER_LEG because they're not even definied in the avatar_lad.xml ( they can't be defined there cause those physic bones don't rotate if you watch them in second life). Once again  to make fitted mesh you should make hack over hacks: how rational and scientific way to  do things.

 

Here folllow some picks of the boots that I ussed for these tests.

This last photo is from inworldz with meshdeformers wearing a shape made by me bodyfat100% and leg muscles 100%. In these experiments I preferred to see rather than the effect with a checkbox texture how also a simply texture  even if not fullyfinished would react.

Now let's focus on a couple more things:

The following photo shows you  what you'd get if you add weights blindly to the top edge of the boots without having a good referal. The more not needed weight you ad the more it's not balanced the more unwanted resutls you get.

we are just talking to give some air to their mouths

Indeed you can rig without having a plugin or an avatar that deforms like in secondlife, but only if you plan to use a whole body avatar made by you,where you would use  the collision bones just to give your avatar physics where it's needed and some deformations where and how much you want.For ganments that have to stay above the second life  buggy avatar with this hacky fitted mesh way to rig you need a good referal to properly balance weights, if you want very good results (and you'd still get some bug after all as said above because fitted mesh is far away from fitting).

If you're still confused and still belive that you can rig without a proper referal or plugin to get good results for fitted mesh whach this video that I showed few hitmen who rather than giving me help wanted by para-psychologist methods tried to convince me that I shouldn't make fitted mesh that I shouldn't be in secondlife,that I should just be in real world and bla bla bla (ok we're on the good way!).Some of them came out trying to convince me that they are able to rig free hand and showed also this video (used then by me as standard to teach others hat to avoid to get proper fitted mesh), a clamorous autogol, where you can see at 1:01:00 that even if the breast zone would mopre or less fit almost right cause also in the wiki avatar we have high weight there, the belly is totally messed up, guessing the weights blindly is the worst thing you could ever do.

 

 After all this madness you may still think that a solution, especially referred to the boots case, is to use more sizes a way like making more sizes like we did for standard size. yah  but fitted mesh is something beyong standard size. For standard size you'd just save your weights, use a lattice to reshape your mesh around the fatter body then import the weights ad it's good to go. for fitted mesh you can't use same weights on a deformer larger gpart of your mesh: iyt works a way like a proportion for X size  and x weight when you you scale  the collision bones by sliders you get X deformation, but if the mesh is wider itself and you use that same amount of weight on its wider shape when the collison bone scales it could be too much weight (in some cases if you're lucky like with the breast below, just luck, you can go and get something working).We love how much extra job gives fitted mesh to get something rigged lol.

Now what can Lindenlab do to help us who want to stay free of plugins and still keep rigging easy and good?

Easy we need an avatar made a way like the old avata.blend file that some years ago domino marama has done.

Can we use that avatar now?

1)No, not as it is, because it has only morphs for the 100% size of most of the sliders that control collision bones

2)Because that avatar has not got with it collision bones, doing some web surfing I realized that the avastar workbench was realized using that  avatar made by domino it has also got the fixes of custom properties( like those in the sl avatar from wiki) that you'd need to add by yourself to that old avatar, but it's stil a lack of something: avatar workbench lacks of collison bones deformations

I've been working with the avatar_lad.xml file to try to reproduce and avatar that has same bones deformations like in second life, just focusing my attention as it should be for a good kit on the collision bones. I made something good, but I have encountered a big, huge, mega iussue.The avatar_lad.xml almost gives me only informations about the biggest status of those bones not the smallest one, only for few of them (apparently).You can find the avatar_lad.xml in your second life folder it's in character folder.

If I could get the a file where it's written properly and with precision the sizes of all those collision bones also for 0% states of the sliders that control collision bones, then that'd be it.

1) I could just make a list poses and give you a file to let you learn what pose morp play together with a selected pose, while you rig (the fastest thing to make). A simple blend file even for blender with a pose library with all the deformations of second life collision bones stored as poses plus all the shapekeys of the various state of the second life avatar is enough to work in blender,to build  plugins for it, also to use as Rosetta Stone to rebuild similar kits for any other program.

2) use drivers that can combine many things in blender as in any other software to use just a custom property slider to control together the  bone deformations and the shapekey/pose morph slider.

I'll try to copy paste also the list of those values that you need from avatar_lad.xml to modify your collision bones and how to relate them to the morphs.

Here follows a picture that I forgot to drag from my betagrid achive of photos,where I store my notes. It clearly shows you where is my bug on the boots and the same bug that you can find in boots from marketplace even if rigged by plugins when you wear a buggy shape leg muscles 100 body fat 100

This most likely happens also with plugins,I doubt that they could have got influenced by the wiki page where it's not written that also LOWER LEG and UPPER LEG scale for body fat as you can see from the avatar_lad.xml lines that I have added below.There must be something wrong with the whole fitted mesh, hence the second life avatar is not rigged on collision bones, but it deforms mostly through morphs.

Consider that in this quick example I've been working with only LOWER_LEG collision bones to allow others to see, to make similar  easy to reproduce experiments. Who knows how many other bugs could be pulled out, using other regions of the body and more bones. Fitted mesh sadly has two big false myths:

• that it really surpasses mesh deformers
• that you could get good rig without a referal avatar that deforms mostly like in second life to weight paint your garnments(I say garnments not just mesh, because saying that fitted mesh works rigging a full body avatar with few collision bones for physics fun, is all another talk,because with a full body avatar you'd set SL avatar default to zero hence you're wearing full body alphas).

[Astrid Kaufmat]

There follow the values used to deform collision bones according to what is written in avatar_lad.xml. I picked just the parts where it's written what we need, hopefully I think that I have discarded all the "wrong" and "useless" ones.

Body Fat

CHEST, PELVIS, UPPER_BACK, LOWER_BACK, LEFT_HANDLE, RIGHT_HANDLE, LEFT_PEC, RIGHT_PEC, BELLY,L_CLAVICLE, L_UPPER_ARM, L_LOWER_ARM, R_CLAVICLE, R_UPPER_ARM, R_LOWER_ARM, NECK, HEAD

<param

id="633"

group="1"

name="Fat_Head"

label="Fat Head"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_body"

label_min="Skinny"

label_max="Fat"

value_min="0"

value_max="1"

camera_elevation=".3">

<param_morph/>

</param>

 

 

<param

id="634"

group="1"

name="Fat_Torso"

label="Fat Torso"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_body"

label_min="skinny"

label_max="fat"

value_min="0"

value_max="1"

camera_elevation=".3">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="CHEST"

scale="0.02 0.03 0.03"

pos="0 0 -0.03"/>

<volume_morph

name="PELVIS"

scale="0.02 0.03 0.03"

pos="0 0 -0.03"/>

<volume_morph

name="UPPER_BACK"

scale="0.01 0.03 0.0"

pos="-0.03 0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="LOWER_BACK"

scale="0.04 0.06 0.0"

pos="-0.06 0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="LEFT_HANDLE"

pos="0.0 0.08 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="RIGHT_HANDLE"

pos="0.0 -0.08 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="LEFT_PEC"

scale="0.0367 0.0367 0.016"

pos="0.00 -0.005 -0.013"/>

<volume_morph

name="RIGHT_PEC"

scale="0.0367 0.0367 0.016"

pos="0.00 0.005 -0.013"/>

<volume_morph

name="BELLY"

scale="0.09 0.08 0.07"

pos="0 0 -0.05"/>

<volume_morph

name="L_CLAVICLE"

scale="0.0 0.0 0.015"/>

<volume_morph

name="L_UPPER_ARM"

scale="0.02 0.0 0.02"

pos="0.0 0.0 -0.02"/>

<volume_morph

name="L_LOWER_ARM"

scale="0.01 0.0 0.01"

pos="0.0 0.0 -0.01"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_CLAVICLE"

scale="0.0 0.0 0.015"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_UPPER_ARM"

scale="0.02 0.0 0.02"

pos="0.0 0.0 -0.02"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_LOWER_ARM"

scale="0.01 0.0 0.01"

pos="0.0 0.0 -0.01"/>

<volume_morph

name="NECK"

scale="0.015 0.01 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="HEAD"

scale="0.0 0.0 0.01"

pos="0 0 -0.01"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

 

 

<param

id="635"

group="1"

name="Fat_Legs"

label="Fat Torso"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_body"

label_min="skinny"

label_max="fat"

value_min="0"

value_max="1">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="PELVIS"

scale="0.03 0.06 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_UPPER_LEG"

scale="0.02 0.02 0.0"

pos="0.0 -0.02 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_LOWER_LEG"

scale="0.01 0.01 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="L_UPPER_LEG"

scale="0.02 0.02 0.0"

pos="0.0 0.02 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="L_LOWER_LEG"

scale="0.01 0.01 0.0"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

 

 

Head Stretch

HEAD

<param

id="187"

group="1"

name="Squash_Stretch_Head"

label="Squash/Stretch Head"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_head"

label_min="Squash Head"

label_max="Stretch Head"

value_min="-.5"

value_max="1"

camera_elevation=".1"

camera_distance=".5"

camera_angle="20">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="HEAD"

scale="-0.008 -0.006 0.015"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

 

Head Length

HEAD

<param

id="770"

group="1"

name="Elongate_Head"

wearable="shape"

label="Shear Face"

edit_group="shape_head"

label_min="Flat Head"

label_max="Long Head"

value_min="-1"

value_max="1"

value_default="0"

camera_distance=".5"

camera_elevation=".04">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="HEAD"

scale="0.02 0.0 0.0"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

 

Torso Muscles

BELLY, UPPER_BACK, CHEST, L_CLAVICLE, L_UPPER_ARM, L_LOWER_ARM, R_CLAVICLE, R_UPPER_ARM, R_LOWER_ARM

group="1"

name="Muscular_Torso"

label="Torso Muscles"

show_simple="true"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_torso"

label_min="Regular"

label_max="Muscular"

value_min="0"

value_max="1.4"

camera_elevation=".3"

camera_distance="1.2">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="L_CLAVICLE"

scale="0.02 0.0 0.005"

pos="0.0 0 0.005"/>

<volume_morph

name="L_UPPER_ARM"

scale="0.015 0.0 0.005"

pos="0.015 0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="L_LOWER_ARM"

scale="0.005 0.0 0.005"

pos="0.005 0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_CLAVICLE"

scale="0.02 0.0 0.005"

pos="0.0 0 0.005"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_UPPER_ARM"

scale="0.015 0.0 0.005"

pos="0.015 0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_LOWER_ARM"

scale="0.005 0.0 0.005"

pos="0.005 0 0"/>

</param_morph>

 

 

 

 

 

 

<param

id="648"

group="1"

sex="female"

name="Scrawny_Torso"

label="Torso Muscles"

show_simple="true"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_torso"

label_min="Regular"

label_max="Scrawny"

value_min="0"

value_max="1.3"

camera_elevation=".3"

camera_distance="1.2">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="BELLY"

scale="0.0 -0.01 0.0"

pos="0.0 0.0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="UPPER_BACK"

scale="-0.01 -0.01 0.0"

pos="0.0 0.0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="CHEST"

scale="-0.01 -0.01 0.0"

pos="0.01 0.0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="L_CLAVICLE"

scale="0.0 -0.03 -0.005"

pos="0.0 0 -0.005"/>

<volume_morph

name="L_UPPER_ARM"

scale="-0.01 -0.01 -0.02"

pos="0 0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="L_LOWER_ARM"

scale="-0.005 0.0 -0.01"

pos="-0.005 0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_CLAVICLE"

scale="0.0 -0.03 -0.005"

pos="0.0 0 -0.005"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_UPPER_ARM"

scale="-0.01 -0.01 -0.02"

pos="0 0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_LOWER_ARM"

scale="-0.005 0.0 -0.01"

pos="-0.005 0 0"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

 

 

 

 

<param

id="677"

group="1"

sex="male"

name="Scrawny_Torso_Male"

label="Torso Scrawny"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_torso"

label_min="Regular"

label_max="Scrawny"

value_min="0"

value_max="1.3"

camera_elevation=".3"

camera_distance="1.2">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="BELLY"

scale="-0.01 -0.01 0.0"

pos="0.01 0.0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="UPPER_BACK"

scale="-0.01 -0.01 0.0"

pos="0.0 0.0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="CHEST"

scale="-0.02 -0.02 0.0"

pos="0.01 0.0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="L_CLAVICLE"

scale="0.0 -0.03 -0.005"

pos="0.0 0 -0.005"/>

<volume_morph

name="L_UPPER_ARM"

scale="-0.01 -0.01 -0.02"

pos="0 0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="L_LOWER_ARM"

scale="-0.005 0.0 -0.01"

pos="-0.005 0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_CLAVICLE"

scale="0.0 -0.03 -0.005"

pos="0.0 0 -0.005"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_UPPER_ARM"

scale="-0.01 -0.01 -0.02"

pos="0 0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_LOWER_ARM"

scale="-0.005 0.0 -0.01"

pos="-0.005 0 0"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

 

 

 

 

Breast Size

female only: LEFT_PEC, RIGHT_PEC

<param

id="626"

sex="female"

group="1"

name="Big_Chest"

label="Chest Size"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_torso"

label_min="Small"

label_max="Large"

value_min="0"

value_max="1"

camera_elevation=".1"

camera_distance="1"

camera_angle="15">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="LEFT_PEC"

scale="0.0273 0.0273 0.0273"

pos="0.038 0.024 -0.016"/>

<volume_morph

name="RIGHT_PEC"

scale="0.0273 0.0273 0.0273"

pos="0.038 -0.024 -0.016"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

<param

id="627"

sex="female"

group="1"

name="Small_Chest"

label="Chest Size"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_torso"

label_min="Large"

label_max="Small"

value_min="0"

value_max="1"

camera_elevation="0"

camera_distance=".28">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="LEFT_PEC"

scale="-0.05 0.0 0.0"

pos="-0.01 -0.01 -0.02"/>

<volume_morph

name="RIGHT_PEC"

scale="-0.05 0.0 0.0"

pos="-0.01 -0.01 -0.02"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

<param

id="843"

sex="female"

group="1"

name="No_Chest"

label="Chest Size"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_torso"

label_min="Some"

label_max="None"

value_min="0"

value_max="1"

camera_elevation="0"

camera_distance=".28">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="LEFT_PEC"

scale="-0.051 0.0 0.0"

pos="-0.02 -0.01 -0.03"/>

<volume_morph

name="RIGHT_PEC"

scale="-0.051 0.0 0.0"

pos="-0.02 -0.01 -0.03"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

 

 

Breast Buoyancy

female only: LEFT_PEC, RIGHT_PEC

<param

id="507"

group="0"

sex="female"

name="Breast_Gravity"

label="Breast Buoyancy"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_torso"

edit_group_order="7"

label_min="Less Gravity"

label_max="More Gravity"

value_default="0"

value_min="-1.5"

value_max="2"

camera_elevation=".3"

camera_distance=".8">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="LEFT_PEC"

scale="0.0 0.0 0.0"

pos="0.004 0.0 -0.01"/>

<volume_morph

name="RIGHT_PEC"

scale="0.0 0.0 0.0"

pos="0.004 0.0 -0.01"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

Breast Cleavage

female only: LEFT_PEC, RIGHT_PEC

<param

id="684"

group="0"

sex="female"

name="Breast_Female_Cleavage"

label="Breast Cleavage"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_torso"

edit_group_order="8"

label_min="Separate"

label_max="Join"

value_default="0"

value_min="-.3"

value_max="1.3"

camera_elevation=".3"

camera_distance=".8">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="LEFT_PEC"

scale="0.0 0.0 0.0"

pos="0.0 -0.026 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="RIGHT_PEC"

scale="0.0 0.0 0.0"

pos="0.0 0.026 0.0"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

 

 

Pectorals

 

male only: LEFT_PEC, RIGHT_PEC

<param

id="685"

group="0"

sex="male"

name="Chest_Male_No_Pecs"

label="Pectorals"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_torso"

edit_group_order="5"

label_min="Big Pectorals"

label_max="Sunken Chest"

value_default="0"

value_min="-0.5"

value_max="1.1"

camera_elevation=".3"

camera_distance="1.2">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="LEFT_PEC"

scale="0.0 0.0 0.0"

pos="-0.03 -0.024 -0.01"/>

<volume_morph

name="RIGHT_PEC"

scale="0.0 0.0 0.0"

pos="-0.03 0.024 -0.01"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

Love Handles

BELLY, LOWER_BACK, LEFT_HANDLE, RIGHT_HANDLE

 

<param

id="855"

group="1"

name="Love_Handles"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="driven"

value_default="0"

value_min="-1"

value_max="2">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="BELLY"

scale="0.0 0.02 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="LOWER_BACK"

scale="0.0 0.02 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="LEFT_HANDLE"

pos="0.0 0.025 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="RIGHT_HANDLE"

pos="0.0 -0.025 0.0"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

 

Belly Size

BELLY, PELVIS

<param

id="104"

group="1"

name="Big_Belly_Torso"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="driven"

value_min="0"

value_max="1">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="BELLY"

scale="0.075 0.04 0.03"

pos="0.07 0 -0.07"/>

<volume_morph

name="PELVIS"

scale="0.075 0.04 0.03"

pos="0.07 0 -0.02"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

 

 

<param

id="156"

group="1"

name="Big_Belly_Legs"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="driven"

value_min="0"

value_max="1">

<param_morph />

</param>

 

Legs Muscles

L_UPPER_LEG, L_LOWER_LEG, R_UPPER_LEG, R_LOWER_LEG

 

<param

id="152"

group="1"

name="Muscular_Legs"

label="Leg Muscles"

show_simple="true"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_legs"

label_min="Regular Muscles"

label_max="More Muscles"

value_min="0"

value_max="1.5"

camera_distance="1.3"

camera_elevation="-.5">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="L_UPPER_LEG"

scale="0.015 0.015 0.0"

pos="0.0 0 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="L_LOWER_LEG"

scale="0.01 0.01 0.0"

pos="0.0 0 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_UPPER_LEG"

scale="0.015 0.015 0.0"

pos="0.0 0 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_LOWER_LEG"

scale="0.01 0.01 0.0"

pos="0.0 0 0.0"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

<param

id="651"

group="1"

name="Scrawny_Legs"

label="Scrawny Leg"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_legs"

label_min="Regular Muscles"

label_max="Less Muscles"

value_min="0"

value_max="1.5"

camera_distance="1.3"

camera_elevation="-.5">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="L_UPPER_LEG"

scale="-0.03 -0.03 0.0"

pos="0.0 0 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="L_LOWER_LEG"

scale="-0.015 -0.015 0.0"

pos="0.0 0 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_UPPER_LEG"

scale="-0.03 -0.03 0.0"

pos="0.0 0 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_LOWER_LEG"

scale="-0.015 -0.015 0.0"

pos="0.0 0 0.0"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

 

Butt Size

PELVIS, BUTT


<param

id="151"

group="1"

name="Big_Butt_Legs"

label="Butt Size"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_legs"

label_min="Regular"

label_max="Large"

value_min="0"

value_max="1">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="PELVIS"

scale="0.03 0.0 0.02"

pos="-0.03 0 -0.025"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

<param

id="794"

group="1"

name="Small_Butt"

label="Butt Size"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_legs"

label_min="Regular"

label_max="Small"

value_min="0"

value_max="1">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="PELVIS"

scale="-0.01 0.0 0.0"

pos="0.01 0 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="BUTT"

scale="0.0 0.0886 0.0"

pos="0.03 0 0.0"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

 

Saddle Bags

PELVIS

<param

id="854"

group="1"

name="Saddlebags"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="driven"

value_min="-.5"

value_max="3">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="PELVIS"

scale="0.0 0.025 0.0"/>

</param_morph>

 

</param>

 

Knee Angle

L_UPPER_LEG, L_LOWER_LEG, R_UPPER_LEG, R_LOWER_LEG

 

<param

id="853"

group="1"

name="Bowed_Legs"

label="Knee Angle"

wearable="shape"

value_min="-1"

value_max="1">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="L_UPPER_LEG"

pos="0.0 0.03 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="L_LOWER_LEG"

pos="0.0 0.03 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_UPPER_LEG"

pos="0.0 -0.03 0.0"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_LOWER_LEG"

pos="0.0 -0.03 0.0"/>

</param_morph>

</param>

 

 

Foot Size

 

L_FOOT, R_FOOT

<param

id="515"

group="0"

name="Foot_Size"

label="Foot Size"

wearable="shape"

edit_group="shape_legs"

edit_group_order="6"

label_min="Small"

label_max="Big"

value_min="-1"

value_max="3"

camera_angle="45"

camera_distance="1.1"

camera_elevation="-1">

<param_morph>

<volume_morph

name="L_FOOT"

scale="0.02 0.01 0.0"

pos="0.01 0 0"/>

<volume_morph

name="R_FOOT"

scale="0.02 0.01 0.0"

pos="0.01 0 0"/>

</param_morph>

[Astrid Kaufmat]

Body Fat CHEST, PELVIS, UPPER_BACK, LOWER_BACK, LEFT_HANDLE, RIGHT_HANDLE, LEFT_PEC, RIGHT_PEC, BELLY, L_CLAVICLE, L_UPPER_ARM, L_LOWER_ARM, R_CLAVICLE, R_UPPER_ARM, R_LOWER_ARM, NECK, HEAD       Add here UPPER_LEG and LOWER_LEG not said in the wiki page, but that really get deformed when you watch them in world.	Bodyfat (fat torso+ fat legs)	fat head fat torso fat legs
Head Stretch   HEAD	head_stretch	Squash_Stretch_head
Head Length HEAD	head_lenght	Elongate_Head
Torso Muscles   BELLY, UPPER_BACK, CHEST, L_CLAVICLE, L_UPPER_ARM, L_LOWER_ARM, R_CLAVICLE, R_UPPER_ARM, R_LOWER_ARM	torso_muscles   scrawny_torso_fem   scrawny_torso_male	Muscular_Torso   Scrawny_Torso   Scrawny_Torso_Male
Breast Size female only: LEFT_PEC, RIGHT_PEC	big_chest_fem   small_chest_fem   no_chest_fem	Big_Chest   Small_Chest   No_Chest
Breast Buoyancy   female only: LEFT_PEC, RIGHT_PEC	breast_buoyancy	Breast_gravity
Breast Cleavage   female only: LEFT_PEC, RIGHT_PEC	breast_cleavage	Breast_Female_Cleavage
Pectorals   male only: LEFT_PEC, RIGHT_PEC	pectorals	Chest_Male_No_Pecs
Love Handles   BELLY, LOWER_BACK, LEFT_HANDLE, RIGHT_HANDLE	love_handles	Love_Handles
Belly Size   BELLY, PELVIS	belly_size	Big_Belly_Torso   Big_Belly_Legs
Leg Muscles   L_UPPER_LEG,L_LOWER_LEG, R_UPPER_LEG, R_LOWER_LEG	leg_muscles   scrawny_legs	Muscular_Legs   Scrawny_Legs
Butt Size   PELVIS, BUTT	big_butt_legs   small_butt	Big_Butt_Legs   Small_Butt
Saddle Bags PELVIS	saddle_bags	Saddlebags
Knee Angle   L_UPPER_LEG,L_LOWER_LEG, R_UPPER_LEG, R_LOWER_LEG	bowed_legs	Bowed_Legs
Foot Size L_FOOT, R_FOOT	foot_size	Foot_Size

This is just a simple way to make a relation between the sliders affecting collision bones and the names of deformers that you find in the avatar.blend file or avastar workbebch (whatever you have got to use) and the names given you in the avatar_lad.xml file

ignore the column in the middle, those are names that I gave to my poses put in the pose library that I made in blender while I kept working on my new project (use just the first and the third columns to interpret properly avatar_lad.xml and the avatar.blend file shapekeys)

[Astrid Kaufmat]

Some possible ways to fix this that I have also written as proposal to linden lab could be:

• using the sliders fixes proposed by Cathy foil in this thread using a Medhue's idea (this is not my idea to fix fitted mesh so credits go where it's due). However to rig easy even if linden lab gave us this fix, it would still be needed a better avatar from wiki page, one made the way that I specified above,a simply blend file with a pose library to collect all the deformations of collision bones plus all the same shapekeys that rapresent exactly sl ones ( well I could remake sculpting those). Even  file  published on wiki second life giving us all the exact details about the collision bones deformations for maximum and minimum state of sliders that control collision bones is nice (hence the avatar_lad.xml is not giving me all that).
• Another way to fix ( this is a dream) having linden lab introducing also mesh deformers together with fitted mesh. this way they wouldn't bother merchants(as it happened when fitted mesh came out destroyingitems made for standard size), if they   have  already done clothes just for fitted mesh, plus new meshes can be done easier and adding some effects due to the collision bones just where you'd think that it's fancy to have it.

[Nalates Urriah]

This might help with some of the problem: Second Life Shape Export. It discusses the scaling problems with mesh as we go in and out of Blender, which is part of the reason things don't fit well. Once you understand the problem things fit better. But, the scaling is not the whole problem. You point out several problems that are real.

I spent a few months trying to work with mesh clothes without a plugin. It is Sooooo much easier using one. But, it is possible. My tutorials on that path are on my blog.

While possible to work without a plugin I found it way too tedious.

I am a believer that there needs to be an easier way to make Fitted Mesh clothes. But, the problems and legacy compatibility requirements the Lab considers important pretty much preclude any new avatar solution. The Lab spent over a year deciding how to implement Fitted Mesh.

The new Slink type bodies/avatars are what the Lab seems to have adopted with the starter avatars. We will see improvements in that style avatar. I suspect we may see something from the Lab to help with animating the face of Fitted Mesh avatars. But, that would be a BIG project. I have doubts that the Lab will take that on for SL1. But, I do expect all these things in what I call SL2.

[Astrid Kaufmat]

Thanks Natales I took a look at that page. Yeah firestorm I tried I think in open grid (can't remember now if it was the  firestorm or the iw firestorm based viewer) what I got there, as I wrote in other posts was a full body (not 3 parts) avi a way like the one in zip from wiki sl not well oriented in space (each export had different orientation) and still with yes some oddity too. We're talking of the obj method. With the old phoenix I got the avatar better oriented in space easier to place in blender to use as referal (this is what I preferred in the first approach) to build the kit that I showed in the other post that should have worked as a speed up pipeline.The bad thing that I noticed with the obj exporter was the butt: I don't know why, how it gets exported always as 0 size butt in all theobj that I saved, from the shapes I made. In a first moment I thought ok I am taking them from open grid where some collision bones are missing, then I repeated the experiment  in sl beta and yeah there too same wrong thing, so I guess that's something that has to do with the viewr.

About wizdaxter plugin I was thinking too to use it because of the vertex groups that it already exports for the morphs( the not defrom vetex groups I mean) this can help somehow in the sculpting process to rebuild the shapekeys.

Anyways using the obj that I saved from old phoenix , bringing in my file the avatar.blend file to check those obj and the morphs I got the meshes to blur(overlapping polygons, good sign).Gonna install again firestorm and cross fingers and see if that xml has more informations inside (I mean the  sizeof the cbones for the minimum state of the sliders).The size that you showede about the xml from sl and firestoem surely means that it has more inside, after all an xml is just like a box inside there might be included a lot of stuff no more nor less like the movies that we make and even if with same file extension could have many different codecs.

About the face rigging: for second life I haven't run that experience yet, without a plugin life is enough hard to make fitted mesh match( Rubik's cube is so far easier), I am not going to do it for now or all the saint would come down from paradise hearing my screams. If you want to have fun with that in open grid yes there is a way to make experiment with that using makehuman and its plugin for blender to export SL riged meshes. I think that Chaty Foil if you ask her can help you better she managed to do it also for maya. I am also trying the makehuman way lately with another  project to add those cbones( if they support me) and hope to get the avatar with at least cbones scaling like in sl there(honestly I see after a few tries longer that way, but who knows, I am die hard).For now with face the only help I could give you in secondlife is with mbones for eyes using constrtaints to build up an handler to animate them ( I mean how the eyeballs move cause all the others around the eye would still be all morphs morphs and again morphs, that luckly domino already put in that old file),luckly for that I animated some toy characters in maya so understanding that in blender has been not that hard.

[Cathy Foil]

There are relatively simple solutions that would be fairly easy to implement for Fitted Mesh that wouldn't break any existing content.

Let's take the broken ankle problem.  Unless people have an Knee Angle setting of 50 pants, long dresses, long skirts and boots rigged as fitted mesh look like they have broken ankles because while the upper and lower leg collision bones move in and out, like they should, they don't rotate to follow the avatar's leg mesh angle they stay straight up and down as they move in and out.

The simple fix to this is to add four more leg bones.  Two new upper leg bones and two new lower leg bones but this time beside moving them in and out have them rotate.  It is a simple bit of code in the avatar_lad.xml file and of course adding the bones to the avatar_skeleton.xml.  This would give mesh designer two options to rig to without breaking existing content.

The second relatively simple solution would be to add custom sliders that just affect the Collision Bones.  This the actually put forth by RedPolly the person who discovered it was possible to rig mesh to the Collision Bones.  Here is a post I made quite a while ago where I made a few custom sliders and posted photos to show such an addition would indeed work.

Custom Sliders for Fitted Mesh a Solution

The biggest problem for rigging Fitted Mesh without a plug-in is you are adjusting the weights blindly.  In order to see how your weights affect your Fitted Mesh one has to keep uploading mesh to either SL or the Beta Test Grid.  This could easily mean uploading 40 or 50 times or maybe more.  It is a bit like writing an email with no monitor to see what you are typing and having to print what you wrote in order to see it.  Then trying to edit your email and having to print it again to see if your changes were correct.  Luckily there is now Avatstar for Blender and MayaStar for Maya that makes this massive multiple uploading unnecessary.

I hate to sound like a broken record but the Mesh Deformer has none of these problems and is just sitting on the shelf complete ready to be implemented in SL.  The Mesh Deformer has worked side by side with mesh rigged to the Collision Bones with no problem because it uses an entirely different way of making mesh fit the avatar body as it changes shape.

Custom mesh bodies using the Mesh Deformer are totally compatible with all the Appearance Sliders including the face and all animations including facial and physics require no more effort to work than just rigging your mesh to the mBones / Normal Bones.  This means totally custom faces and bodies who eyes blink and mouth open and close.

Here again is my video showing the Mesh Deformer works:

Yes I know I am promoting the Mesh Deformer which if implemented would certainly hurt the sale of my plug-in for Fitted Mesh but I am thinking of the greater good.  It would be best for SL if LL would let us have both the Fitted Mesh and the Mesh Deformer.

 

[Astrid Kaufmat]

---

Cathy Foil wrote:

There are relatively simple solutions that would be fairly easy to implement for Fitted Mesh that wouldn't break any existing content.

Let's take the

broken ankle problem

.  Unless people have an Knee Angle setting of 50 pants, long dresses, long skirts and boots rigged as fitted mesh look like they have broken ankles because while the upper and lower leg collision bones move in and out, like they should, they don't rotate to follow the avatar's leg mesh angle they stay straight up and down as they move in and out.

The simple fix to this is to add four more leg bones.  Two new upper leg bones and two new lower leg bones

but this time beside moving them in and out have them rotate.  It is a simple bit of code in the avatar_lad.xml file and of course adding the bones to the avatar_skeleton.xml.  This would give mesh designer two options to rig to without breaking existing content.

The second relatively simple solution would be to

add custom sliders that just affect the Collision Bones

.  This the actually put forth by RedPolly the person who discovered it was possible to rig mesh to the Collision Bones.  Here is a post I made quite a while ago where I made a few custom sliders and posted photos to show such an addition would indeed work.

Custom

Sliders

for Fitted Mesh a Solution

The biggest problem for rigging Fitted Mesh without a plug-in is you are adjusting the weights blindly.

 In order to see how your weights affect your Fitted Mesh one has to keep uploading mesh to either SL or the Beta Test Grid.  This could easily mean uploading 40 or 50 times or maybe more.  It is a bit like writing an email with no monitor to see what you are typing and having to print what you wrote in order to see it.

 

---

Agreed. Got to thank Cathy at laest I may start think just a lil bit that I am not blond, mad like a played boxer: that's the feeling dealing with fitted mesh.

Linden LAB did you hear it? I don't know who is the ceo responsible of such... choice that  works so far worse than  mesh deformers, and makes life so far harder to rig than it would be with mesh deformers or with a system like the one we have in IMVU. In my place such choice would make armchairs fly through the windows.

Maybe lindesn, will hear you, Cathy, about the extra bones, I have the fear that as long as they are not friendly to add new user friendly code, they'd rather add more bones for face rig( a way like some template like those in rigfy for face work, which is lotsa time consuming for builder, and lotsa work and headaches for the ones who will be daring to make plugins for that). This could be the way they would allow to rig facial animations: a madness.It would be something like in the following video.