Fitted Mesh issues (using Avastar)

[Zak Kozlov]

Hiyas!

 

So I recently started doing mesh clothes again and initialy my new collection was in Fitted Mesh. I was providing 2 sizes per gender that seemed to cover the standard sizings pretty well. I had that side issues which I kinda accepted then. Until it was time to release full perms kits and I was not happy to deliver with that imperfection. Last minute, I readjusted all my meshes to the 10 standard sizings instead and ditched Fitted.

 

I went back to attempts with Fitted mesh and this time I've tried to take the default, keep it as is and just switch it to Fitted Mesh and the issue is still there. Avastar official videos on fitted mesh seem flawless (or at least, without that huge issue!) so I want to know if i'm doing anything wrong... I've made a video (that you will hopefully understand through my accent and shyness) to show you the issue and what exact steps I am taking

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTOXHsD6VtU

[Gaia Clary]

There is a huge misunderstanding about how fitted Mesh is supposed to work. And i believe that the name Fitted Mesh for the used method is one part of the misery. Actually i think that it should be named Approximated Mesh or so.

The basic problem is that the Avatar Shape system in SL is based on a mixture between Skeletal Animation and Blend shapes (Morph Shapes). While the Mesh shape system in SL is only based on Skeletal Animation.

To make this more precise: There are about 130 Appearance Sliders in the Avatar Appearance. About 30 of these sliders affect Mesh characters while the other 100 Appearance sliders only affect the SL Avatar. As a consequence any attempt to match a fitted Mesh to all Slider settings of the SL Avatar will somewhat deviate from the corresponding SL Avatar shape.

Now there is another bad misconception, that is: The Weight maps for the default SL Avatar do not work nicely for fitted mesh creations. However Avastar does currently only provide the default weight maps (exactly as they are defined in the SL Viewer). There is no such definition for the fitted mesh weight maps, hence we can not provide any official data here!

As a consequence creators need to weight map their own fitted meshes by hand. Of course you can use the default weight maps as starting point. But you must modify them to get decent fittings.

So to make your pants work you need to tweek the weigfht maps. I found a couple of methods how you can actually do that without breaking the overall weighting of your character and how it animates, but i can tell you its not a cakewalk :matte-motes-impatient:

Here is Lesson 1 of my SL Skeleton course (it includes a video) where i introduce the basics of SL character animation. There i try to explain how blend shapes and skeletal animation work in principle:

http://blog.machinimatrix.org/lesson/sls-1/

Furthermore i am working on an alternative set of Weightmaps which might be a better starting point for fitted Mesh creations. Here is an image of where i am at the moment. This is a silhouette made for the most extreme shape that is: All slider values set to 100, except the knee angle slider (which i kept at 50):

 

• Fitted Avastar Shape:
  This is how a mesh clone of the SL Avatar will be shaped when it is rigged as fitted Mesh using my (not yet available) alternative set of weight maps
• Avastar Shape:
  This is how the Avastar character gets shaped in Blender.
• SL Shape:
  This is how the Avatar is shaped in SL (this is actually derived from a photo that i made inworld)

What you can learn from this image:

 

1. Avastar's Slider System acurately recreates the SL Appearance editor. So what you see in Blender/Avastar will be exactly what you get later in SL (provided you use the same shape in Blender and in SL)
2. The Fitted Mesh shape deviates from the Avatar shape even with my alternative Weight Map set. Note: The Fitted Avastar shape gets totally broken when i try to use the default SL Weight maps! I have not included a picture of that here.

I am not yet done with my alternative weight set. I know that i can be better at the arms and the lower legs. The hips are the most troublesome area. There i suspect i won't be able to create something that behaves similar to the default SL Avatar. For all other regions i think i am OK so far (but again: This is not a precise solution!)

Finally: Here is a proof of concept video that uses the new Weight map set together with a fitted Mesh Avastar and a fitted mesh pants:

BTW When you make tights then you always have trouble with poke through. There is no other general solution for that other than using slpha masking!

[Zak Kozlov]

Thanks for answering!

 

I do understand rigging pretty well I think, it's my favorite part of making clothes.

I would never use the default weights hehe they are pretty horrible. I was using those trying to debug my issue around the waist, I was sortof expecting the default to react properly and when I saw that it didnt I assumed I was maybe doing something wrong from start. But maybe not, maybe Fitted is just bad! as I mention in the video I dont expect it to be perfect, poking through is normal, alpha layers always needed. but that waist issue is not a little imperfection, its a big a** issue / difference! hehe I did however see fitted mesh clothes without that huge of an issue around the waist, I have yet to figure out the way to weight my meshes to lessen it and take my hat off to those who did hehe

 

I guess i'll stick to the standard sizings for now. seems like the best use of fitted mesh is on mesh avatars with clothes fitting for it. Big mess for legacy! The problem / dilema is customers asking for Fitted mesh. as a creator I want to provide what people desire, but I could never stand releasing something that's not at the best I can do and so far the standard sizing still seem like the best solution versus Fitted.

 

The video looks pretty good, It's what made me look back into fitted. I'm subscribed to your channel and this is mostly the video I was refering to (and those now seemingly gone videos uploaded in the last few days which showed the transfers) I cant wait to see the new avastar weights.

[Jenni Darkwatch]

Sorry to butt in, but from a customers perspective I'd like to add a view:

Standard sizing is a decent idea, but it doesn't deal with extreme shapes. Neither does fitted mesh. Anything skintight is always going to be iffy (think bikinis and such). However: I still personally prefer fitted mesh. Why? Only ONE piece of clothing and since my avi is halfway proportionate it works very well.

[Medhue Simoni]

I kind of get the feeling you missed the point Gaia was trying to make. There is no real finished solution for fitted mesh, meaning there are no set default weights that can be even remotely perfect for all avatars. This means, even if you could get a set of weights that are close, you would still need to do quite a bit of adjustment for almost any clothing item you make. The default SL fitted mesh weights will not, in anyway, but useful to test with, as they are not weights that are created to accurately weight clothing for fitted mesh.

I really do love that Gaia will release her own set of fitted mesh weights. That should really help alot of people. And.... if you are reading this Gaia, please do not worry at all about my set of weights that I sell. I only did that because people asked me to. I really don't have the time to support something like that, but I'll keep mine up and support until I see nobody needs/wants them. Also, I do find that transfering weights from a higher poly mesh really does produce better weights, as the higher polyness gives more verts to produce nicely gradiented weights, if that makes sense.

As far as whether to use fitted mesh, or standard sizing, I'd listen to my customers. Of course, I'm not a big fan of fitted mesh, but if the customers want it, then that's likely what creators will give them. Me, I don't sell clothing really, so I would not know. What I do know, is that most people don't like weighting, and I have been asked by dozens of clothing creators to rig their clothing for them. I could really just rig clothing in SL and make a decent living, but I really have too many other things I want to do. Plus, I'm not cheap, and I think the best solution for a clothing creators is to get good tools, and learn.

[Zak Kozlov]

Thank you hehe But you kind of get the wrong feeling then. I did get the point. maybe I explained myself wrong and i'm not going to try further because there is a language barrier and I would likely explain my thoughts just as wrong again

 

I just want to precise again that I have not been looking for a lazy or simple way. I was testing with the default and i've learned in Gaia post why this was wrong and got a better understanding of how Fitted Mesh works. I actually love weight painting and find it to be the easiest and funniest step in mesh clothing creation. With that new understanding of  how Fitted works I've already managed to almost fully eliminate that issue and i'm likely going to provide fitted + standard sizings in the future

[Medhue Simoni]

Great Zak! Good luck!

I just wanted to make sure you understood, and didn't give up on fitted mesh just yet.