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Do creators ever think of this possibility with the "all your creationz are belong to us" TOS


Charli Infinity
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2.3 You grant Linden Lab certain licenses to your User Content. [..]you agree to grant to Linden Lab, the non-exclusive, unrestricted, unconditional, unlimited, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, and cost-free right and license to use, copy, record, distribute, reproduce, disclose, sell, re-sell, sublicense (through multiple levels), modify, display, publicly perform, transmit, publish, broadcast, translate, make derivative works of, and otherwise exploit in any manner whatsoever, all or any portion of your User Content (and derivative works thereof), for any purpose whatsoever in all formats, on or through any media, software, formula, or medium now known or hereafter developed, and with any technology or devices now known or hereafter developed, and to advertise, market, and promote the same. You agree that the license includes the right to copy, analyze and use any of your Content as Linden Lab may deem necessary or desirable for purposes of debugging, testing, or providing support or development services in connection with the Service and future improvements to the Service.[..]

 

Thinking of all the creators that spend so much time making nice furnitures and clothes in SL...some really good quality ones.

Now that Linden Lab is making a new virtual world, do you think they will fill that world with all the mesh created by creators in this world without giving a dime or any credit at all? How would you feel about it that if it happens?

I feel this TOS is really starting to show it's purpose now that LL has revealed they are making a new virtual world.

They can do it legally and creators are just supplying LL with a ton of mesh of all sorts free of charge and Linden Lab owns them forever.

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Lets take your idea as granted for a moment. then lets ask these follow up questions...:

 

  1. Who will be doing upgrades and maintenance for the items that will be sold by LL?
  2. Why would LL actually put any effort into a new virtual world at all? They could just sell the items here and now...
  3. Why would Creators step into the new world when LL is already taking over the entire market?
  4. Why would Creators even stay in current SL if their work will be grabbed by LL and resold in the new world?
  5. Why would users step out of SL and enter the new world when it is made from stuff that already exists in current SL?
  6. Actually LL has stated that the compatibility of the new world to the current world is limitted. So who will adjust all the millions of LSL scripts to whatever will be provided in the new world?
  7. Can you give any example where Linden Lab has taken user content and resold that content within the past 12 years?

 

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  • Who will be doing upgrades and maintenance for the items that will be sold by LL?

I wasn't thinking of LL selling the items but they could just make the new world with all the top quality items in second life. The could provide the clothes, furniture and houses with the mesh made in SL with a bit of modification to be used in the new world. Sure beats them having to buy more mesh or hiring a team to make so much content for the new world.

 

  • Why would LL actually put any effort into a new virtual world at all? They could just sell the items here and now...

They are making a new virtual world right. The one people have been calling SL2.  Again I wasn't thinking of them selling it. Surely the new world wouldn't be a complete empty blank white screen when you log in. There's going to be stuff in it and they could just use the top quality stuff made in SL there instead of buying new mesh or hiring a team to make stuff for it.

 

  • Why would Creators step into the new world when LL is already taking over the entire market?

Yeah why would they? But by uploading they agreed to the TOS assuming LL won't do anything but it clearly states in the TOS LL is free to exploit their creations any way they like. It's not LL taking over the market but they need basic stuff in the new world and also gifts to entice people to join and to pay for premium membership. Why hire a team to make to stuff when they already have so much stuff they could just give away.

 

  • Why would Creators even stay in current SL if their work will be grabbed by LL and resold in the new world?

Yeah why are they staying? I guess creators are taking for granted LL won't do anything with their content though the TOS does state LL can if LL decides to.

 

  • Why would users step out of SL and enter the new world when it is made from stuff that already exists in current SL?

Because LL could make the stuff for free as basic items for members like the stuff we have in our inventory libraries now. Obviously if they are going to take they'd take the good quality creations and they could modify it in anyway. Beats creating from scratch that will cost LL more money.

 

  • Actually LL has stated that the compatibility of the new world to the current world is limitted. So who will adjust all the millions of LSL scripts to whatever will be provided in the new world?

I don't think they'd bother with the scripts but meshes and textures and sounds. Those will likely be compatible and again sure beats them having to make from scratch.

 

  • Can you give any example where Linden Lab has taken user content and resold that content within the past 12 years?

Nope but that isn't proof they won't start especially with this TOS they set up which will allow them to do it legally. 

 

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While there was certainly plenty of speculation on this thought over a year ago, the revelation that a new world is in progress adds more info. It has been stated that some of our SL items will be portable into the new world. For me, that was the other shoe dropping. That clause is needed FOR the portability and the legality of such especially if Linden Lab plans to duplicate what they can of existing inventories FOR FOLKS in the new world.

We aren't sure that is the new plan; it seems like The Lab isn't sure yet either but the idea that we could venture over with some of our personal inventories in tack DOES seem to have much to do with the 2.3 clause.

I agree it does say they can do whatever they want with our content. Doing so however would have such a huge backlash that I doubt SL could survive, so personally I don't think your scenario is the correct one :D. Let's hope it is not.

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Even if there were backlash there's nothing the creators could do about it because they agreed by uploading. They gave their consent to LL. If anything people will just see SL creators as dumb people that will just click "agree" to any TOS. Maybe LL won't impose the same TOS in the new world at first just like they didn't until recently in SL and that will make new creators join.

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What would you think is the easier way to go for LL:

Either:

 

  • Step into SL (or marketplace if you prefer).
  • Collect all nice items (btw: how to decide which ones to select?).
  • Create a new SL2 market place from those items.
  • Offer for free or sell the items to users and let the users alone with what they bought.
  • Sit back and watch how nicely their new economy will develop based on old content from SL1

 

Or:

 

  • Offer current creators a better place for selling.
  • Let creators do the job to create nice® items for SL2.
  • Let the creators do maintenance and customer support.
  • Take a percentage (5 percent maybe?) from the sellings.
  • Sit back and watch how the users new economy develops and participate in their success.

 

For me the choice would be VERY obvious. really... However, LL can decide what they want. If you/me/us dont like their decision, then lets go to another place ... Or create something new even :) Who knows... But honestly i am rather confident that the new world will be based on similar principles like SL.

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Gaia you are still thinking in the way of LL selling content and taking over the market of SL2.

That's not it. They won't take over the market and profit from selling stuff from SL1. That's pointless to create a new world.

But they do need basic stuff in the new world. People aren't going to join if it's just an empty world with nothing in it at all. Those basic stuff in it which they provide for free to all users could come from the mesh made in SL1 with a bit of modification. They need to to have stuff in the new world at the point of launching SL2 in order for people to want to join. The need to have clothes before creators join and start making clothes, furniture before creators join and start making them. They need stuff ready at the launching of SL2 to make people want  to join. Without enough people wanting to join SL2 there wouldn't even be a market for the new creators.

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Gaia, your missing how Charli is thinking. Charli doesn't understand Linden Lab's business model and probably not how any business model like the Lab's works in general.

He has also obviously missed Ebbe making the point that he is primarily designing SL2 for creatives, designers, and merchants. Charli seems unaware of the general direction in gaming to rely on user created content and what that envolves. Thus it follows that Ebbe will see that the creative, designer, merchant peeps are taken care of on a number of different levels, not rip them off as Charli imagines.

The annoyance in the community is that the TOS defintely allows for the possibility of Charli's scenario to play out. Those that understand the Lab's business model are confident in the Lab's future behavior - because they know what pretty much has to happen. Those that don't, have trust issues.

While there is the possiblitiy that the Lab will rip us off... it is not reasonable that they will as it is not in the Lab's best or financial interest.

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Well, I won't be as hard on you. The TOS are problematic. Really tho, they are more problematic for LL than they are for creators. LL shoots themselves in the foot by creating a TOS that is so broad. Then, they override their TOS with the words they publically say. Essentially, IMHO, they have made their TOS a joke.

That said, it's just a TOS. People put far too much emphasis on a TOS, especially when it is as muddie as LL's. A TOS is just an agreement between the people offering a product or service to the people buying it or using it. It's not law, and can only be determined to be a binding contract in court. A good percentage of TOS out there, would never be enforcable in court. Some are almost laughable. LL's boarders on that. LL's lack of specificity is seen as a negative to creators, but I see it the other way around. If they don't specify, then they are just talking gobbly goop. If LL ever did anything unethical with our stuff, they'd have a class action lawsuit, with thousands of us on there, and you can bet it would be all over the news. The TOS would be irrelevant.

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It makes absolutely no business sense for Linden Lab to do what you're suggesting. It would be short-term gain at the expense of ruining themselves and alienating their customers in the long-term.

Also, there's very important wording that gets overlooked in the hyperbolic discussions about this issue: "Non-Exclusive." They don't own my stuff, I do. They have incredibly broad rights to use and resell, but they don't own it.

Its not a nice TOS, and there has been huge backlash against it. But the Lab is aware of how critical merchants are to its success - hell, they do SL better than LL does. To do what you're suggesting would ruin them utterly.

At the end of the day, and regardless of whether they're trustworthy or not, you can count on a company to act in its own best interests.

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Nalates Urriah wrote:

The annoyance in the community is that the TOS defintely allows for the possibility of Charli's scenario to play out. Those that understand the Lab's business model are confident in the Lab's future behavior - because they know what pretty much has to happen. Those that don't, have trust issues.

While there is the possiblitiy that the Lab will rip us off... it is not reasonable that they will as it is not in the Lab's best or financial interest.

It's the possibility itself that really messes things up. For things that people have created 100% by themselves, it's probably not too huge a risk to upload them since it would be really, really dumb for LL to try and use them commercially.

But because it's possible, it makes it legally murky to use a lot of the freely available resources online. CGTextures for example still has their no-SL rule last I checked, and pretty much anything not public domain is no good. The ToS makes everything a much bigger pain for everyone who's not an all-in-one modeller and texture artist themselves.

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Charli Infinity wrote:

Now that Linden Lab is making a new virtual world, do you think they will fill that world with all the mesh created by creators in this world without giving a dime or any credit at all? How would you feel about it that if it happens?

I guess I'm just repeating what others have said already but: no there's no realistic chance of that happening. There are many reasons but here's one that should be mroe than enough alone to ansure this wouldn't happen: LL doesn't just need content for their virtual world(s) they need a constant supply of fresh content!

As far as I know, there are no competent content creators working for LL anymore. That means they are completely dependant on their users here and they simply can't afford to risk loosing the qualified content creators who still work in SL.

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While I don't disagree about the need for new content (in my world but notably not in EVERYONE'S  :D ) I would like to give some kudos to the person or team in charge of the new Linden Portal Park areas. I think they have done a wonderful job with the use of materials (not everyone can see those of course) and the design. It is quite lovely.   I haven't inspected anything over there but I am guessing there is a Linden name associated with it. If not, then the kudos still hold for the outsourcing designers.

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Chic Aeon wrote:

While I don't disagree about the need for new content (in my world but notably not in EVERYONE'S 
:D
) I would like to give some kudos to the person or team in charge of the new Linden Portal Park areas. I think they have done a wonderful job with the use of materials (not everyone can see those of course) and the design. It is quite lovely.   I haven't inspected anything over there but I am guessing there is a Linden name associated with it. If not, then the kudos still hold for the outsourcing designers.

I went and took a look but forgot to rurn my graphics up so I could see materials.

The huge majority of the works there show Ancient Mole as the creator.  There are some things by other Moles.

I did also find some items made by SL Merchants.  One thing I noted was that most of these Merchants specialized in Full Perm meshes and had only been around since Mesh went live on the grid and had no In World stores.  I did find one older account who did sculpts and other things who did have a Store.

The park was done pretty nice.

Maybe LL is hiring some people who actually do have some artistic ability.

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Chic Aeon wrote:

While I don't disagree about the need for new content (in my world but notably not in EVERYONE'S 
:D
) I would like to give some kudos to the person or team in charge of the new Linden Portal Park areas.

Yes, I should have known better than ake such a sweeping statement. :matte-motes-wink:

There's some real qualities in the new portal park build. And if you go to the beta grid, head over to MeshHQ 3 and take a look at the mesh landscape Ruintai Linden has made there. Crude and with some rather obvious flaws, the mesh still has some serious qualities. That guy's got real building talent!

It is also important to notice that there have been some really good content creators working for LL in the past. Eric Linden is one of the best builders - perhaps the best builder - SL has ever seen and some of the early Mole builds (Bay City, the Blake Sea Boathouse and Pyri Peaks just to mention a few) are true masterpieces. Oh, and that one piece of flotsam LIbby Linden placed in the middle of Carmichael -  that must the most effective use of a single prim in the entire Second Life! (A shame some other Linden who didn't know to leave well enough alone had to add to it recently.)

More importantly, it seems LL recently has begun to (re)gain a better understanding and appreciation of what content creation is all about. I only started building a year and a half ago but I soon learned the lesson that if you have problems, do not ask LL for assistance. It's not that they unwilling to assist - quite the contrary, I always found them eager to help - but they never understood a conent creator's point of view so their solutions tended to only make matters worse. Recently this seems to have changed though. Oh, they still mess it up but now at least they seem to appreciate that maybe they need to think a bit first. They hired professionals to build the new wonderful welcome sims, they allowed a group of volunteers to restore Governor Linden's Mansion (not absolutely convinced that was a good idea but at least it's a good attempt) and they've even made some feeble attempts to fix that TOS this thread is supposed to be about. It's not much yet but it's definitely a good start. And a very necessary one too. It's hard to keep track of the ever changing plans for SL2 but last I heard, Ebbe Linden was talking a lot about content - "experience content creators" (apparently thinking we don's have those in SL today) but content all the same. That's great news but LL doesn't really need a new grid for that, they need a new attitude. The moment LL starts to take serious content creation seriously, serious content creators will start to take SL1 and SL2 seriously again. I believe LL has started already and think things will only go upwards from now on. :matte-motes-smile:

And that's my seond answer to Charli's original question. The TOS change happened when the communication breakdown between LL and the content creators was at its worst. By now LL realizes it was a mistake even though they may not yet understand how big a mistake it was. We can't expect them to fix the error overnight but they're certainly not going to make matters worse.

(P.S. If anybody from LL happens to read this: why not pop over to the Brewery and the Hipsters and the Tower and Little Blue and NCI Hamnida and the other places where the real content creators hang out? You have to be prepared to be overwhelmed with frustrations and unresolved issues that have built up over the years but that'll pass and it's about time we get into a proper dialog how to develop this wonderful world further. Oh, and while you're at Hamnida, why not pop over to Gukyeol and clean up the mess Vandal Linden left there - I can't imagine the oldtimers who hang out at that infohub really need a basic builders' tutorial and besides, it's a bit silly to place such an amateurish one right next to the place where Immy and the other NCI instructors hold their excellent classes on the topic.)

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