Who's using your FULL PERMS prims to commit fraud?

[Ashtyn Ninetails]

What a week we had here! Hurricane, flood, power-outtages, and... Notification of Copyright Infringement Received from Linden Lab??!!?

 

That's right, I was surprised (and outraged!) to find out someone filed a DMCA against me! I, who have a pre-written speech about how "you should not give out stuff you didn't make and have no rights to distribute" for whenever someone offers to give out something that's not theirs to distribute! I, who have always followed the usage agreements of other content-creators whenever I outsourced and used things that I didn't make myself! I, who always contact content-creators to make sure I can include their items in builds I intend to re-distribute, when their re-distribution terms aren't very clear!

 

Turns out some low-life scoundrel has been using full perms prims that have me as their creator to distribute stolen content! And the rightful owner of the content, not knowing better (and not bothering to contact me about it), filed the DMCA against me.

 

Now I have to deal with LL's draconian way of handling things! There's no simple "Oh just start a LiveChat and clear things out with them!", no, now we're back in 1990, where you have to FAX them counter-notifications, provide them with personal information they are by no means entitled to (and that they will forward to people who have no business having it!), and hope they don't make a mistake when they take action and end up banning my account or deleting my whole 40000+ inventory!

 

Throughout the years, I've heard horror stories about LL handling copyright infringement, so, I'm terrified! Everything from "they never bothered doing a thing!", to "they blocked access to my region and suspended my account because someone else's stolen items were rezzed there!", so I can only pray I get someone who's not in a foul mood to handle my case!  :P

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want someone out there using my prims to distribute stolen content! I'm all for the Lindens removing from the grid every single one of those prims that have been used improperly, and banning every one of those filthy thieves from entering the grid ever again!

 

But there's got to be a better way to handle it! There's got to be a more humane way of handling it, that makes legitimate content creators feel secure, like the system is on their side! I personally am an honest person and I take it very hard and very personally to be accused of stealing someone else's stuff, and the way it's handled, you are a criminal until you can prove otherwise!

 

So, for all you content-creators out there, who knows how your full perms items are being used! Maybe you will be next to be called a thief!

Food for thought!

 

-Ash

 

[Pamela Galli]

So sorry, what a nightmare!  I have been facing nightmares this week as well, severe enough that for the present, I have stopped creating.

I would contact the filer of the DMCA directly and explain what happened.

It is impossible for normal people to understand how these people can be so malicious.

[Ashtyn Ninetails]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I would contact the filer of the DMCA directly and explain what happened.

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Yes, I have contacted them, and clarified things with them and they understand now what happened. I've been in business since 2008, there must be thousands, if not millions of my prims out there!

 

Now I'm waiting to hear from LL - if they respond to their Intellectual Property e-mail address, that is. The LiveChat person I talked with told me to reply to the e-mail I got, but on LL's page about DMCA it says they don't acknowledge e-mail, so, who knows what's going to happen! Like I had nothing else to worry about!

 

So I might get an e-mail sometime in the coming days, with further instructions regarding a situation such as this (which I suspect will sound a lot like "sorry to hear about this but the only way to reverse this is to submit a counter-notification via fax or snail-mail"), or maybe in a week or so I'll just get a "we didn't get a fax or letter from you so we're now banning you".

[Zanara Zenovka]

The lab should be pretty used to this stuff - the well-known self-replicating-cube griefer script has Philip Linden as original creator...

[Darrius Gothly]

Maybe it's just a severe lack of coffee but ...

If someone else is using prims with you as the creator, they are distributing something that you did NOT make. The DMCA Takedown should be against the items you didn't really make. So when LL "scrubs the Grid" of all those infringing items, it will not affect anything you actually created ... right? How is that a bad thing against you?

Can you help un-muddify this for me please .. cuz I is like horrible confuzzled now.

[Ry0ta Exonar]

Well, he said "Turns out some low-life scoundrel has been using full perms prims that have me as their creator to distribute stolen content!", so I think his full perm prims were used as a container to store the stolen items and that original creator of the stolen items found his name as the creator of the container, so they filed a DMCA notification against the OP.

 So "when LL "scrubs the Grid" of all those infringing items, it will not affect anything the OP actually created" , but if LL should ban him (I don't think so though), he will lose his account, hence whole his inventory. I think he is talking about that.

[Darrius Gothly]

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Ry0ta Exonar wrote:

Well, he said "Turns out some low-life scoundrel has been using full perms prims that have me as their creator to distribute stolen content!", so I think his full perm prims were used as a container to store the stolen items and that original creator of the stolen items found his name as the creator of the container, so they filed a DMCA notification against the OP.

 So "when LL "scrubs the Grid" of all those infringing items, it will not affect anything the OP actually created" , but if LL should ban him (I don't think so though), he will lose his account, hence whole his inventory. I think he is talking about that.

---

Well, yeah ... except we've seen that LL doesn't ban people for a single DMCA being filed against them. They don't even seem to take action against repeat offenders. It apparently requires a lot more "effort" to get banned for distributing stolen content.

Considering the age of the OP's account, I would find it highly unlikely they'd drop the hammer for something like that. Especially when looking "inside the box" and discovering that the container was the only thing created by the OP.

There's also the loss of reputation .. having to wear a Scarlet Letter that you didn't really earn. But far as I have seen, DMCA's are held in complete confidence .. their existence isn't posted or shared with anyone other than the parties involved .. so any smirch would be invisible to everyone else. The worst effect would be on the OP's own psyche.

I get why it "feels icky" .. and would rightfully get one's dander up, but overall I think having had a nice chat with the Originator of the DMCA and explaining the situation, that really would be the end of any serious concern.

(And I'd for damn sure get the name of the guy distributing stolen stuff in "My Boxes" .. so's I could AR the living tweety-birds outta him!)

[Perrie Juran]

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Ashtyn Ninetails wrote:

Now I have to deal with LL's draconian way of handling things! 

 

---

Hopefully the alleged filer of the DCMA will file an amended notification.

But as far as your comment above, it is not LL's "draconian way" you are dealing with here.

They are following the legal requirements of the law. 

In other words, this is a genuine legal issue.

You didn't state specifically that you contacted Live Chat, but if you did their advice that YOU follow the law was correct.

 

 

[Knowl Paine]

Filing a false claim, is a serious matter, and can result in significant legal fees.

DMCA's are a double edged sword. 

 

Carefully, read the information in the link.

LL is on Notice; not you.

Anyone who needs your Consent, only has the authority you give them. You can say no, and Reserve all of your Rights.

You can do nothing, and allow the content to be removed.

You are not Obliged to act in any manner, nor comply with any demand.

 

http://secondlife.com/corporate/dmca.php

 

This is Not Legal advice, only a Lawyer can offer Legal advice. (usually for Money)

 

[Aztek Aeon]

The most a person seems to ever get is a ban for a few days or a week.

I have succesfully filed a DMCA against  the same individual 5 times and he is still in world.

Based on experience, LL  does not do a very good job protecting the average SL creator and TM owner and historically acts as judge and juror when responding to a DMCA or trademark infringment when that is not their  job. There have been RL lawsuits out there as a result which were succesful in protecting the content creator..

Just don't give up fighting the issue and make sure if they make a call that you know is wrong, come back at them with facts and proof.

 

[Knowl Paine]

The only person, who can pursue the matter, is the person who's Rights were infringed upon.

LL has given clear public notice, as to the steps involved.

A Claim, filed by the victim (plaintiff) with a Federal Court Clerk, is the final step. (A serious step, in which a person should consider seeking legal counsel).

 

[Aztek Aeon]

Knowl I'm not sure why this is response to me, as it has nothing to do with my comments, unless misinterpreted or assumptions made.

[Perrie Juran]

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Aztek Aeon wrote:

The most a person seems to ever get is a ban for a few days or a week.

I have succesfully filed a DMCA against  the same individual 5 times and he is still in world.

Based on experience, LL  does not do a very good job protecting the average SL creator and TM owner and historically acts as judge and juror when responding to a DMCA or trademark infringment when that is not their  job. There have been RL lawsuits out there as a result which were succesful in protecting the content creator..

 

Just don't give up fighting the issue and make sure if they make a call that you know is wrong, come back at them with facts and proof.

 

---

"Successful DMCA" means really two things here.  You filed your notice correctly and the alleged offender did not file a counter claim.

As to the rest of your statement, I find it extremely difficult to believe that LL would risk losing their safe harbor protections by not following the law.  And part of that law is that they can only act on a properly filed notice.  The only loophole in the law is that it does not state how fast a company acts on the original claim.  It only says that they have to act in a timely manner.  They are not required by the law to drop everything they are doing to act on a claim.  But they do have to act.

As far as banning repeat offenders, that would be an issue for Merchants to band together on and raise with Rodvik.

 

[Aztek Aeon]

Successful in this case means the content was removed, though apparently not fully from inventory as the offender would simply put it back out. Or in one instance, gave it to his alt to sell. In once case the offender sent it all out, full perm, to a group right after coming back from a suspension.

 

As for the rest, I can only tell you my personal experience: a dozen DMCA's and about as many TM violation claims, which has been just as I said. The mistakes, inaccuracies, failure to complete, misinterpretaions etc on their part have been unmistakable and it has taken vigilance,determination and a lot of patience to get them to follow thru on their part.

[Perrie Juran]

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Aztek Aeon wrote:

Successful in this case means the content was removed, though apparently not fully from inventory as the offender would simply put it back out. Or in one instance, gave it to his alt to sell. In once case the offender sent it all out, full perm, to a group right after coming back from a suspension.

 

As for the rest, I can only tell you my personal experience: a dozen DMCA's and about as many TM violation claims, which has been just as I said. The mistakes, inaccuracies, failure to complete, misinterpretaions etc on their part have been unmistakable and it has taken vigilance,determination and a lot of patience to get them to follow thru on their part.

---

If you think their actions have been as egregious as you claim, then take them to court.  Safe harbor only protects them so far.  When it comes to acting on these claims, all the iiiiiiiiii's have to be dotted and all the ttttttttt's have to be crossed.

A company is not required by the law to inform you if there was a problem (something wrong) with your filing.  So if LL is communicating back to you that there was a potential problem with your claim, that actually says something in their favor.

Please note, I am not a LL fan boy.  I have my gripes with them also.  And I do support creator's rights.  Absolutely.  But I also know that the law imposes certain requirements and restrictions in order to protect the accused.  This is necessary too.  I think it's sad it makes it harder on you, but their will always be two parties involved, the accused and the accuser, and I am also entitled to protection from false claims.

 

[Aztek Aeon]

My post was not a complaint; it was a sharing of experience to the OP. Please do not make it out to be more than that.

[Perrie Juran]

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Aztek Aeon wrote:

My post was not a complaint; it was a sharing of experience to the OP. Please do not make it out to be more than that.

---

cool.

It is not that I don't appreciate the difficulties you encounter.  Sometimes it is hard for me not to respond because of the number of 'the sky is falling down' claims that we see here and I hear In World.  Claims which I think actually serve to hurt creators and SL more than they help.  Some times some things I read (like false virus warnings) my brain goes "why are they trying to scare people away from SL?"

 

[Knowl Paine]

Because you have made assertions based upon experience.

Experience, indicates fact.

LL does Not act outside of their capacity in DMCA procedures.

Your experience, is absolutely Not in question. You executed A, B, but did not choose to pursue C.

Your desire, or willingness, to follow through with your DMCA notices, is the reason for the action, or lack of action you have received.

I'm not afraid to admit, that following plan C, the final step, is far from practicable, and Justice will be first served, to those who can afford it.

 

 

LL is doing the honorable thing, they could just pull the content. They are using a rule of Law. The use of discussion, and negotiation, in an attempt to find resolution. Only after all reasonable attempts have been exhausted, should either party seek a remedy through the Courts.

If a person does not answer, they are in dishonor. Hence the reason for content to just be removed, case closed.

If a person does come forward, and they are to Give Consent, they Honor the Court, and they are in Honor.

Both parties at this time, would be in Honor.

Skip your Court date, and you will be out of Honor. The Court may Rule in your absence.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ashtyn Ninetails]

See, this is a big deal to me because it's my first time going through it. I'm one of those boring types who's never got a ticket, or a fine of any kind, who's ever done everything 'the right way' to avoid getting in trouble. And a copyright violation accusation is a serious thing, no matter how much people try to brush it off with "it happens all the time"! And I still believe in things such as "honor" and "integrity". It's a deep insult to me, and probably if I hadn't had to deal with RL disaster (hurricane Sandy and all that) I would be less sensitive about it, but right now, it really got my dander up!

The "draconian ways" I refer to is basically the entire process of this: Someone files a complaint against you. LL sends you a notification of accusation of violation of copyright - basically, you're a criminal, the offending content will be removed. Now prove yourself innocent.
It's an accusation of a crime based on entirely unreliable evidence: The "Creator" tag on an object.

This is the same as someone robbing your store in RL, and then you sue "Winchester Repeating Arms" because the gun the thief used had that name stamped on it.
Or an even closer analogy, someone robs your house and stores the stolen content in an Amazon.com box, and you accuse Amazon.com of theft because they made the damned box your stuff was found in!

My whole point is I'm personally insulted and scared because I've never been through this before (I wasn't approached in a friendly way, either by the person whose stuff got stolen or LL, and told "Hey we think there's a problem, can you explain?", no, I was told "you have violated copyright, we are removing the offending content, submit to this procedure if you wish to claim you are innocent"), and foremost, the "Creator" tag on a prim is not a reliable attribute to accuse someone of wrong-doing!

[Aztek Aeon]

Ash, I am sure anyone with some DMCA filing experience would be happy to help you outside the forums.

These places tend to breed alot of hostile, know-it-all behavior, especialy towards  people such as you looking for a little help and hand holding, which is why most of us stay away from  the forums.

If you need some help, dont be afraid to IM me in world.

[Innula Zenovka]

How terrible for you!   But, as others have suggested,  LL are certainly used to this trick with full perm prims -- the "Thieves' Motherlode" collection of ripped stuff distributed at Burning Man back in 2009 was packaged in a prim originally made by a very respected scripter and educator, and, similarly, a friend of mine who is a well-known content creator found, to her horror, that one of her full perm prims had been used to make copybotted hair. 

In both cases, LL needed little persuasion that they were as much innocent victims as were the people whose content had been stolen.

[Pamela Galli]

I am not sure how often you read this forum Aztek but I am here every day, and my experience is that the regulars here are generally most helpful and by far better informed than anywhere else. People do drop into this and most other forums who don't know anything, but here those are a very distinct minority.

 

 

[Pamela Galli]

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Aztek Aeon wrote:

The most a person seems to ever get is a ban for a few days or a week.

I have succesfully filed a DMCA against  the same individual 5 times and he is still in world.

Based on experience, LL  does not do a very good job protecting the average SL creator and TM owner and historically acts as judge and juror when responding to a DMCA or trademark infringment when that is not their  job. There have been RL lawsuits out there as a result which were succesful in protecting the content creator..

 

Just don't give up fighting the issue and make sure if they make a call that you know is wrong, come back at them with facts and proof.

 

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My experience with LL removing content has been dismal also. Repeated DMCAs have had little effect on the ones reselling my content; certainly their accounts were never banned. I see why some creators just stop bothering.

[Porky Gorky]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

My experience with LL removing content has been dismal also. Repeated DMCAs have had little effect on the ones reselling my content; certainly their accounts were never banned. I see why some creators just stop bothering.

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Linden Lab are definitely not supporting the DMCA process as they once did. It would seem during 2012 that the only way of properly dealing with serious incidents of content theft in SL is to get a legal representative to write to LInden Labs and threaten legal action against them if they continue to ignore the DMCA process and continue to host stolen content. It can be a costly exercise but is very effective at getting stolen content taken down. Does not necessarily result in the thieves getting banned though

 

[Knowl Paine]

After reading some comments in the "What Is there anything can I do" thread,

This problem is going to get worse, not better. Interpretations of the Law vary greatly, as does the Law vary greatly from State to State.

This is a rich man's Law.

 

I'm going to exit this thread.