Pamela Galli Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Part INobody is happy with the Second Life Marketplace review system. Not buyers, certainly not sellers, most likely not Linden Lab either.Yet few want to scrap it altogether. It is the lesser of two evils -- the other being that buyers have no way to warn other buyers off of something poor quality or an out and out scam - OR to give a quality product or customer service the praise it deserves.Buyers who leave legitimate negative reviews are discouraged because they see unscrupulous sellers who will simply relist an item to get rid of negative reviews. This is against the TOS but it is hard for anyone to keep track of relistings.And I have heard horror stories about buyers who leave legitimate negative reviews that receive a barrage of irate IMs from the sellers and their friends.Then there are those who leave spurious negative reviews, typically from those who don't bother to find out what the listing is actually for, before buying.For example, I sell all kinds of dining furniture, in different sizes and configurations. I sell full dining sets, dining tables by themselves, dining chairs by themselves, and food that can be added to the dining tables -- all so buyers can customize as they wish. Yet at least once a week I get an angry bad review because someone bought a dining table that they thought was a dining set -- despite warnings in ALL CAPS in the listing that the price is for the table only, and other items are sold separately. I have somehow "cheated" the buyer by sometimes selling only tables, in addition to dining sets.Another example: Although my houses listings include clear warnings that no furniture is included, and provide a list of everything that is included, buyers will leave a one star review because they "thought furniture was included".Then there are the bad reviews because people do not understand basic functions like how to open a box (and not just people new to SL either), or did not read the notecard with helpful info and instructions.Recently someone gave a one star review for one of my best selling sets because it was "too expensive" -- and called me greedy. Furniture and clothing makers receive negative reviews because something doesn't fit the buyer's avatar -- but the buyer neglected to try the model / demo before buying.And then there are the extortionists, who threaten a bad review if they don't get a refund. There are a few things LL can do to improve that experience :1. First of all, everyone would be delighted if LL made it easier to leave a review, as Xstreet did with its pop up reminders with links to the products. Or you could go to a page that had everything you had purchased but not yet left reviews.Why would making it easier to leave a review be better for everyone? Because as it is now, you have to be very motivated to leave a review -- and for most people that translates into "very angry/disappointed". So the few reviews there are tend to be skewed towards the negative -- and are much more upsetting to merchants if there are only one or two reviews total. Not that merchants EVER are justified in attacking anyone for leaving a review, no matter how negative -- but I bet it would cut down on some of the acrimony.To LL's credit, they will remove spurious reviews that do nothing to help a potential buyer evaluate the quality of the product. But that still means the merchant has to flag every review of this sort, and someone at LL has to look into it to see if it is a legitimate review. It an annoying waste of time. And the sad thing is that since people are so much more likely to leave a review when they are angry than when they are happy, these reviews have a lot of weight.2. Something that could help cut down on spurious negative reviews is for reviewers to get a pop up reminder of what reviews are for -- ie advising potential buyers whether the item is as advertised, for example, and what they are not for (eg complaining because you did not read the listing.)3. Also, IMO those who repeatedly leave spurious / off topic reviews which LL has to remove, should have their ability to leave reviews suspended for a certain amount of time.4. Merchants who harrass reviewers (even really mean reviewers) should have some kind of penalty related to the listing of that product (as they are supposed to have now for relisting to get rid of reviews).5. High on most merchants' wish list would be the ability to ban people from buying our things on the marketplace. As a buyer I can choose who I want to do business with, but as a seller I can not. And yes, believe it or not, I have had people buy my things over and over and leave a negative review each time. I'd just as soon they shop elsewhere.The bottom line is that Second Life is supposed to be a place to play, a place to have fun, but there is a little group of mean spirited people who take their pleasure in ruining things for others, whether it is scamming people with crappy (or stolen) merchandise -- or selling empty boxes -- or spitefully trying to ruin the sale of perfectly good products because they failed to read the listing or notecard. When things dont go their way, their first impulse is to look around for someone to blame and attack.Linden Lab is working on a redesigned marketplace; I hope they will be as good as their word when it comes to listening to feedback from buyers and sellers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 You should put this in an E Mail to Ebbe. Because here you know you are just preaching to the Choir. I do especially like the idea of a "feedback" reminder. Other services such as EBay have it. Let Ebbe know that irritations with the review system are a constant subject on the Forum. It could be that CTL has told him but then again CTL is not known for clear communications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Perrie Juran wrote: You should put this in an E Mail to Ebbe. Because here you know you are just preaching to the Choir. ----------------------- Done! Sent a link to this thread. But I see many non-Choir members in the forums as well, which can only underscore the need for more and better education from the Lab on what reviews are for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 one simple enhancement would be the ability to view ALL the feedback left by an individual. like ebay does. Then it's trivial to get an insight into their ability and trend, plus it would go a long way towards exposing shills. i'm far more likely to take notice of someone with a genuine issue who also leaves positive reviews than someone who only spends their time smiting others on every review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 Yes,that would be valuable information to have available. I understand that some people are only going to leave a review when they are not happy with a product, which is their right. My main annoyance (because they take up my and LL's time getting them removed) is with those who consistantly leave invalid reviews, either out of spite or because they simply are not capable of understanding the difference between a valid and invalid review. Their viewable review history should include every instance in which one of their reviews was pulled by LL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I wish items that have been removed, or rather unlisted, and put back on the MP had some indication of exactly that. Of course, it goes completely against the guidelines to do this, merchants are *not allowed* to delist and relist items simply to get rid of poor reviews. But, it happens a LOT, and way more than LL cares to deal with, apparently. Granted, I know they need more manpower in this area, no matter what, but even just having a couple more people work in this area would make a difference. A couple of years ago, ok more like three, I bought a product on mp, a relatively popular product(and it still is today). At the time the reviews were a mixed bunch, but not too bad. However something happened with that creator and, all of a sudden, quite a few negative reviews were being left. Of course, magically the product disappeared from MP, and customers assumed it was for a product revision, or something. It wasn't, it was to merely get rid of the bad reviews because the creator wasn't doing so hot in sales, due to them. It was reported, by several, when the creator relisted the item, making no changes, and magically within the first day there were 12+ positive, glowing reviews, mostly a few words, at most. Yeah, that's not likely, given the bugs that particular product had at the time. We thought LL did something about it, but they did not. A few more bad reviews were left, and again,t he product disappared, only to magically show back up a couple days later, no changes made, and again, another dozen or so glowing reviews. I think we played the tag your it game for a good month with the creator and LL before we all gave up, and by we, I mean this creator's customers. The creator doesn't make good on promises to fix, or refund, and gets all...butthurt, regardless of how kind (or in some customers' cases, not so kind) you get when contacting him/her. It doesn't matter how many times the product gets delisted, and relisted, LL doesn't do squat about the reports. That's not been the case for every product that has been relisted when it should not have been, but it is an annoying thing that happens now and then which is in LL's control, but they choose to do nothing about it. It's annoying, to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 I would think it not very hard to display the date of listing, something that would be useful for a number of reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Pamela Galli wrote: I would think it not very hard to display the date of listing, something that would be useful for a number of reasons. Yes, it seems like a rather elementary concept to me. I'm still nto certain why LL has never implemented it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Tari Landar wrote: Pamela Galli wrote: I would think it not very hard to display the date of listing, something that would be useful for a number of reasons. Yes, it seems like a rather elementary concept to me. I'm still nto certain why LL has never implemented it. It's in the basket along with things like letting us select the "Mesh" checkbox that is metadata stored in the database but not exposed to the search options. Or sitting on the shelf next to "implementing boolean operators in search" Or in the drawer along with "showing the date of merchant last log in" All...very...simple...stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 As long as we are veering a little OT (and Ebbe might see this!): A year or so ago, at the request of LL, we filled out a survey about how to improve search. The results: silence. I will repeat my suggestions (yet again): 1. Reduce the keyword field by AT LEAST half. THIS IS WHERE YOU ENCOURAGE OR DISCOURAGE KEYWORD SPAM! 2. Do not include the name of the STORE or AVATAR in object search. There is already a place to search for these. "Paula's House of Shoes" should not show at the top of a search for "house". 3. Weight the Item Listing Title higher than keywords, as that will always have the most relevant key words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikka Luik Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 The ability to see a 'review history' is something I would very much support, in fact it is something that has been nagging at me for some time. An MP banlist type set up has been raised before though and recieved quite a lot of heat at the very suggestion. Your other points, yes. Agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I use a system for recording MP Sales and managing other aspects of business, including the ability for customers to request their own redeliveries of copyable purchases. One of the features it provides is the ability to "Ban" someone .. but only from interacting with my stuff on that system. This means that if I encounter someone that is using the system to abuse only me and is otherwise being a good respectable customer to others then the only thing that person is prevented from doing is continuing to harass me. I should think that such an ability, banning a specific user from accessing a specific merchant's products would be child's play to implement. Heck, for all I know, it's already in the basket, on the shelf, or in the drawer with all the other functionality that would make using Marketplace easier and more profitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 Unlike you and Sassy, I have little idea what would be easy or hard to implement -- so I do rely on your expertise. Anyone who has been in business in SL for any length of time comes to the realization that dealing with some people is not worth whatever money might wind up in your pocket. There are too many lovely people in SL for ANYONE to waste dealing with mean spirited ones. As it is, one special class of SL resident is forced to deal with them, and that is merchants. We can ban inworld, but we are forced to do business with them on the MP. Unless it is monumentally difficult to implement, the ability to opt out of doing business with whomever we wish should be instituted. ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercedes Avon Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 There is little incentive for a consumer to leave a review and (like Pamela mentioned) most won't unless they're upset and want to vent. I would like to possibly see a "reward" system implemented to encouraged users to review purchases (negative or positive). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Mercedes Avon wrote: There is little incentive for a consumer to leave a review and (like Pamela mentioned) most won't unless they're upset and want to vent. I would like to possibly see a "reward" system implemented to encouraged users to review purchases (negative or positive). At first blush this seems like a concept that is a land mine looking for an excuse to explode. But on second thought, being able to register a single object as a "Reward" for placing a review means that an automated system always delivers the object no matter the rating or comment. Automated in this case also means unbiased, and that's the saving grace IMHO. The object itself, as well as the contents of that object, are entirely up to the Merchant. It could be as simple as an innocuous freebie or something more complex such as contact info, FAQ notecards, or coupons for discounts on future sales. The value of the Reward is entirely within the control of the Merchant, yet it is given to ALL reviews posted. I also strongly support a much more communicative and interactive method of tracking purchases made but not yet reviewed. Yes, yes, yes .. I totally get that it was already done by someone else .. and that your (CTL's) Dev Team doesn't like doing stuff that others have already done. But in this case it is a mechanism that was proven valuable and resistant to abuse so it should be implemented again. But then again there are a whole shipload of simple, beneficial and frequently requested features that just never get acknowledged ... ever ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 As long as we are fantasizing , such a reward system should not reward the kind of invalid reviews Mercedes mentions in another thread and which usually get yanked by LL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I believe Mercedes also made the point that the Review System as currently implemented is so invisible and irrelevant that mostly those with a serious case of rage bother to actually post a review. My belief is that the sort of gentle nudging that was present on XStreet must also be added to SLM as part of an upgrade to the Review System. That is the only thing that will bring in reviews that are primarily valid and thoughtful, instead of the rabid ventings of ticked off and disappointed buyers. As it stands now though, I'm afraid that its intended use and actual use are vastly different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercedes Avon Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I want a linden for each review I get that has little to do with me, my product or anything I have control of . . . and then I will retire . . . as long as we are fantasizing. Haha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Shoot! I'd be happy just having all the fractional L$ from the commission calculations deposited to my account. Oh .. wait .. someone already did that in RL, didn't they? *SIGH* NVM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Yazimoto Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 well not specifically about the review system, but since someone mentioned it id like some changes on the keywords system. First, keyword list should be visible on the page directly, that way maybe some unscrupulous merchants would be less at ease to use keywords that are not fitting with the product. At least their practices will be obvious at the first glance. Secondly, i say it for years now, we need a keyword thesaurus. A list of keyword we must use and no way to add any other word. Of course if we need one that is not in the list, then we may do a request for it and if its relevant, they ll add it to the list. Keywords system cant work without a thesaurus otherwise its a jungle. It always piss me when i type a keyword in the search bar and i end up with a gazillion of items not related at all with my request... Everyone using a database with keywords use a thesaurus. Idk why the hell the MP has none. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Mercedes Avon wrote: I want a linden for each review I get that has little to do with me, my product or anything I have control of . . . and then I will retire . . . as long as we are fantasizing. Haha! Really. If people do not like a product EXACTLY as described and pictured and available as a demo, then just do not buy it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spica Inventor Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 It seems to me, being closer to the top pages of 'relevance' search results, is much more beneficial for getting more sales, (due to strong natural herd mentalities of the vast majority of Humans), than whatever reviews an item gets and their effect on reducing or increasing sales (which probably isn't much in any case in reality). But yes, the practice of relisting to remove poor reviews, and then have your friends and alts buy up a bunch of the product to place it back up on the relevance search result page is no doubt easy to get away with if you only sold like a few dozen of the thing to begin with. Any really hot selling item that sells one per day or more or so on average will hang around the top of relevance search results anyway even if in the relisting you lose hundreds or thousands of sales history search result boost. Iv'e noticed that L.L. is giving greater relevance search result weight to products selling more per week than total history of sales these days which is a good thing imho. Still I find the current review system to be very informative and useful in its present unperfected form. It is much better than nothing imao. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iren Tinkel Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Regarding your post about reviews, Pamela, I think it would be better without reviews at all. If there are scam or wrong listings - people should have ability to warn LL and LL should check it and remove. For now all this review system is just annoying. I do have good reviews but from 3 posted with 5 stars I have 10 posted with 1 star which I should flag because unfair. Mostly it is people who "lost" no copy thing and want to replace, or somebody who bought and "disappointed" (omg, iI have full sim to try demos! How it comes to stay disappointed with size, color, options, animations if you are able to check all in demos?...), or recently "undelivered", or even unfair competitors. But I think flagging will be useless soon because "reviewers" become more "experienced" and if they want to post bad review - they find way to do that with 4-5 stars even kinda like that - completely mocking review, flagged but never deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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