Dae files.... a question.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

What is the point of charging more for a full perm mesh with DAE files as opposed to just the full perm mesh if your ToS says the buyer can not upload to other grids?

I'm supposed to pay more for a file that i then have to pay to upload? Usually at a very high cost... One item was 2500L with the DAE and 500L without, yet the DAE would cost me 700L to upload. So final cost is 3200L for something i can just add a root prim to and get the same results and save 2700L.

Can anyone explain this logic? and why some merchants are only selling with the DAE at higher costs?

[jordanit0]

We can only guess why they do it.  But I think its to allow people to edit the mesh say add a bow here or a spike there then rig it to the mesh.

Well thats what I would be giving the dae files for but currently I only give the dae files with semi exclusive items. 

I do know someone that does that also gets some mesh resized to there store sizes and gets the material faces edited.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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jordanit0 wrote:

We can only guess why they do it.  But I think its to allow people to edit the mesh say add a bow here or a spike there then rig it to the mesh.

Well thats what I would be giving the dae files for but currently I only give the dae files with semi exclusive items. 

I do know someone that does that also gets some mesh resized to there store sizes and gets the material faces edited.

---

Thats the thing, they arent "giving" the DAE files at all, they are charging crazy amounts for them and not offering the items without them.

 

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

I'd say they're doing it because they have no competitors under-cutting their prices. ()

 

 

[Sassy Romano]

If it costs L$700 to upload (is it clothing?) Then I'd suggest you are using the wrong settings in the mesh upload dialog.

 

If an item of clothing costs me as much as L$12 per item then it's a big clue that something is wrong.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

apparently it is a very intricate mesh...  700 was a guess. I have uploaded intricate things before and they were around 600L to do.

[Sassy Romano]

That still sounds insanely expensive. I've uploaded just under 65k vertices for about L$25

 

If it's clothing, set lowest lod to 0 and supply a cube for physics.

[Perrie Juran]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

apparently it is a very intricate mesh...  700 was a guess. I have uploaded intricate things before and they were around 600L to do.

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Color me clueless here.

Upload cost is tied to Land Impact.

But when we wear an object what is measured is Render Weight.

So does a high (excessive?) LI translate to high (excessive) Render Weight?

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Color me clueless here.

Upload cost is tied to Land Impact.

But when we wear an object what is measured is Render Weight.

So does a high (excessive?) LI translate to high (excessive) Render Weight?

---

It does.  In addition, high LI objects contribute to huge amounts of lag.  Lower LOD levels are extremely important to reduce.  If I have an object which only takes up 4x4 pixels of my screen, there's no point in it having more than 100 verts.  With that in mind, if I'm uploading nearly anything, if the upload price exceeds L$20 or L$30 I assume I'm doing something terribly wrong and revisit my models.  (>_<)

[Sassy Romano]

Yes and no Perrie.  The "no" part is because the LI is determined as the highest cost of either download, server or physics.

So it's possible that the LI is because of a simple model but a ridiculously complex physics shape and when the item is worn it goes phantom thus there's no point incurring physics as the highest L$ cost during upload.

Though yes, as a general pointer, L$ cost is generally indicative of the complexity.  (But it's still pretty simple to upload complex stuff for L$11)

[Perrie Juran]

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Imnotgoing Sideways wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Color me clueless here.

Upload cost is tied to Land Impact.

But when we wear an object what is measured is Render Weight.

So does a high (excessive?) LI translate to high (excessive) Render Weight?

---

It does.  In addition, high LI objects contribute to huge amounts of lag.  Lower LOD levels are extremely important to reduce.  If I have an object which only takes up 4x4 pixels of my screen, there's no point in it having more than 100 verts.  With that in mind, if I'm uploading nearly anything, if the upload price exceeds L$20 or L$30 I assume I'm doing something terribly wrong and revisit my models.  (>_<)

---

Thank You!

I've been catching some heat over my complaints about Avatars with excessive ARW's.  I of course can not prove that it was the Mesh Dress this Ava was wearing that caused it but it is a constant common denominator I see when I encounter excessive ARW's. 

I have several screen shots at this particular dance.  Several of the Avies who were wearing MESH gowns were over 300,000.  The highest I saw wearing old style system/prim gowns were around 150,000.

As much as I dislike meters (specifically script meters), I'm beginning to think we need ARW Meters.  Lighten your load if you want to come dance here.

(Yes, I'll confess this is a personal issue.  But I'm getting tired of being lag bombed and in some situations crashing because of these overweight Avatars.  Put six of them in a Club and watch things slow to a crawl.)

[Perrie Juran]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Yes and no Perrie.  The "no" part is because the LI is determined as the highest cost of either download, server or physics.

So it's possible that the LI is because of a simple model but a ridiculously complex physics shape and when the item is worn it goes phantom thus there's no point incurring physics as the highest L$ cost during upload.

Though yes, as a general pointer, L$ cost is generally indicative of the complexity.  (But it's still pretty simple to upload complex stuff for L$11)

---

Grrrrrrrr.....I have two somewhat conflicting opinions here now. 

[Sassy Romano]

Not really, it would be somewhat unusual to have a ridiculously complex physics with a simple shape unless it was made badly but then it is still rather easy to produce clothing with huge complexity and low LI by setting the lowest lod to 0 and a simple physics shape.

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Imnotgoing Sideways wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Color me clueless here.

Upload cost is tied to Land Impact.

But when we wear an object what is measured is Render Weight.

So does a high (excessive?) LI translate to high (excessive) Render Weight?

---

It does.  In addition, high LI objects contribute to huge amounts of lag.  Lower LOD levels are extremely important to reduce.  If I have an object which only takes up 4x4 pixels of my screen, there's no point in it having more than 100 verts.  With that in mind, if I'm uploading nearly anything, if the upload price exceeds L$20 or L$30 I assume I'm doing something terribly wrong and revisit my models.  (>_<)

---

Thank You!

I've been catching some heat over my complaints about Avatars with excessive ARW's.  I of course can not prove that it was the Mesh Dress this Ava was wearing that caused it but it is a constant common denominator I see when I encounter excessive ARW's. 

I have several screen shots at this particular dance.  Several of the Avies who were wearing MESH gowns were over 300,000.  The highest I saw wearing old style system/prim gowns were around 150,000.

As much as I dislike meters (specifically script meters), I'm beginning to think we need ARW Meters.  Lighten your load if you want to come dance here.

(Yes, I'll confess this is a personal issue.  But I'm getting tired of being lag bombed and in some situations crashing because of these overweight Avatars.  Put six of them in a Club and watch things slow to a crawl.)

---

The real catch is a matter of distance.  All objects in SL have a number of LOD levels.  Mesh uploads have 4.  The primary model is the highest LOD and is rendered typically when the object takes up more than 40% of any given screen space.  As an object gets smaller on the screen (or further away, as the case may be) the client will automatically switch over to successively lower LOD levels.  ()

Think of objects like trees in a forrest.  The closest trees within a couple meters will have the most detail and will amount to probably no more than 3 to 5 trees.  Stretch your eyes beyond that and the remainder of the forrest can be hundreds of trees in your line of sight.  While it may be fine for those first 3 to 5 trees to have 1000 vertices, could someone really think it's worth the detail to require hundreds of 1000 vertice trees? (>_<)

At the same time, vetices are for shape.  Faces are for surface.  My screen resolution is 1920x1080.  An avatar on my screen can generally take up to about 300x600 pixels at any given moment.  I'd roughly guess that every face on my screen should reasonably use a minimum of 8x8 pixels at any given time.  To make an example, each letter of this post on my screen is roughly 7x10 pixels and they don't have faces to convey any information further than their own shape.  If someone truly believes that they "need" more than 1000 vertices in such a scene, they're a totally lost cause. (=_=)

The best trick is to go to wireframe view.  Technically nothing should ever look solid in wireframe view.  But, I've run into many clothing items with mesh dimensions so dense, it's a wonder they need faces at all.  Such creations are a total waste of resources and accomplish nothing in actual visual quality. ()y

 

 

[Perrie Juran]

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Imnotgoing Sideways wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Imnotgoing Sideways wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Color me clueless here.

Upload cost is tied to Land Impact.

But when we wear an object what is measured is Render Weight.

So does a high (excessive?) LI translate to high (excessive) Render Weight?

---

It does.  In addition, high LI objects contribute to huge amounts of lag.  Lower LOD levels are extremely important to reduce.  If I have an object which only takes up 4x4 pixels of my screen, there's no point in it having more than 100 verts.  With that in mind, if I'm uploading nearly anything, if the upload price exceeds L$20 or L$30 I assume I'm doing something terribly wrong and revisit my models.  (>_<)

---

Thank You!

I've been catching some heat over my complaints about Avatars with excessive ARW's.  I of course can not prove that it was the Mesh Dress this Ava was wearing that caused it but it is a constant common denominator I see when I encounter excessive ARW's. 

I have several screen shots at this particular dance.  Several of the Avies who were wearing MESH gowns were over 300,000.  The highest I saw wearing old style system/prim gowns were around 150,000.

As much as I dislike meters (specifically script meters), I'm beginning to think we need ARW Meters.  Lighten your load if you want to come dance here.

(Yes, I'll confess this is a personal issue.  But I'm getting tired of being lag bombed and in some situations crashing because of these overweight Avatars.  Put six of them in a Club and watch things slow to a crawl.)

---

The real catch is a matter of distance.  All objects in SL have a number of LOD levels.  Mesh uploads have 4.  The primary model is the highest LOD and is rendered typically when the object takes up more than 40% of any given screen space.  As an object gets smaller on the screen (or further away, as the case may be) the client will automatically switch over to successively lower LOD levels.  (

)

Think of objects like trees in a forrest.  The closest trees within a couple meters will have the most detail and will amount to probably no more than 3 to 5 trees.  Stretch your eyes beyond that and the remainder of the forrest can be hundreds of trees in your line of sight.  While it may be fine for those first 3 to 5 trees to have 1000 vertices, could someone really think it's worth the detail to require hundreds of 1000 vertice trees? (>_<)

At the same time, vetices are for shape.  Faces are for surface.  My screen resolution is 1920x1080.  An avatar on my screen can generally take up to about 300x600 pixels at any given moment.  I'd roughly guess that every face on my screen should reasonably use a minimum of 8x8 pixels at any given time.  To make an example, each letter of this post on my screen is roughly 7x10 pixels and they don't have faces to convey any information further than their own shape.  If someone truly believes that they "need" more than 1000 vertices in such a scene, they're a totally lost cause. (=_=)

The best trick is to go to wireframe view.  Technically nothing should ever look solid in wireframe view.  But, I've run into many clothing items with mesh dimensions so dense, it's a wonder they need faces at all.  Such creations are a total waste of resources and accomplish nothing in actual visual quality. (

)y

 

 

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First, my apolgies for hi-jacking your thread Drake.

I do understand that LOD drops at longer distances.  But wont those Avies with a 300,000 ARW still have a greater impact than an Avi with 150,000 ARW?

And if you start mutiplying this in a crowded place like Franks, won't it start to get insane.

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

No worries, I'm learning stuff..

 

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

First, my apolgies for hi-jacking your thread Drake.

I do understand that LOD drops at longer distances.  But wont those Avies with a 300,000 ARW still have a greater impact than an Avi with 150,000 ARW?

And if you start mutiplying this in a crowded place like Franks, won't it start to get insane.

 

---

Very much so.  While ARW is based on an imperfect formula which can be erroneus once in a while, it is a valid measure of how much visual lag something is generating.  ARW points are summed up based on raw vertice/face count, texture density, alpha, and various other lag inducing properties.  While it may not be fair to set an arbitrary threshold that says "anything above this will cause lag"...  It's perfectly reasonable to find yourself in a laggy situation and locate the hardest hitters via the highest numbers. ()

 

[Chic Aeon]

Back to the original question --

 

DAE files are supplied so that "knowledgeable" creators can tweak the design to their liking, add and even remap etc the file. I don't do this (either way) of course but I know a couple of folks who have purchased mesh with dae files and then needed to redo a lot because the mesh was C***PY .

There is absolutely NO WAY (as stated by several folks) that mesh should cost $700 to upload. Even a whole house with many pieces might just be $100. Typically mesh if done correctly will be $11 or $12 per piece. I have seen $15 once. 

 

The other reason to have a DAE is so that the selling designer's name is on the mesh should someone check. Now, it is not very likely that uploading said mesh would be inside the terms of service since the buyer doesn't own the copyright to the object, only the usage (and upload) rights. So moral? I would say so, but "legal" as in TOS? Maybe not.

 

Folks that REALLY want exclusive mesh hire folks to build the file (usually clothes) for them and then upload. Since they own all the rights to the file (work for hire) that seems legal to upload.

 

That's what "I" know .

[Drake1 Nightfire]

Actually, the original question was: Why don't they offer both versions, with DAE and without at a lower price? I understand why they offer DAE files. I just don't understand why they don't offer them without them. And before anyone states this, I have asked the creators in question why, they just refuse to give an answer.

The simple way to have the sellers name on the item is to add a root prim... No extra cost.

[Sassy Romano]

I guess it's because it's their choice to offer a single item albeit at a higher price. If you choose not to use a piece then that's your choice.

 

Same question to sl merchants who offer full outfits when someone only wants the shoes.

[Chic Aeon]

If I was in the position of the original creator I can't see that it would be fair to the folks paying the higher price for more options -- to also sell at a "rack rate". Then the same dress for example would be out on the marketplace more than it would have been at the "elite" price. If I was a person paying said elite price I would NOT be happy to see a very similar style to what "I" created from the original file showing up all over the place. That lowers the value of my product.

 

Just putting myself in other people shoes. I think it makes good sense to sell either one way or another.

 

Anyone that knows much can inspect those prims to see who made the actual garmet so while the root prim keeps the hassle away from the original creators, it isn't a mask really -- unless someone goes to extrodianary steps (which I actually have seen LOL).