Commerceteam Linden and the secret meetings...

[Sassy Romano]

I'm not bothered but I am curious.

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Commerce/Help-Customers-Buy-Clothing-that-Fits-their-Avatars/ba-p/2613864

So, let me get this straight...

There was a "project" that merchants helped with (who?) yet not one single mention of this project or initiative mentioned here, in what should be considered one of the primary communication vehicles and now...

NOW... LL asks that all merchants standardise on the outcome of this covert project when they were all but nearly all excluded.

The best bit... you want us to use icons that are copyrighted and require that we include the copyright in each use of.  Do you really think i'm going to waste space on my inworld ad pictures to include that?

How about NO!

On the other hand, LL, you could start by enabling a check box to actually utilise the fact that we've been uploading mesh items, checking a box that says "MESH" and yet people still can't search for mesh by using that attribute. 

Further, if someone did want to support this initiative, since LL utterly failed to anticipate the use of mesh for clothing and dithered for far too long on a deform method, what tools are LL going to provide to help merchants edit their listings in bulk, you know, the ones with several hundred mesh listings that you now ask to be updated?

Why doesn't the check box option for classic/mesh auto add the appropriate icon?  Why should we have to download a picture and include that each time with a copyright?  Your web code should do this part!

This really isn't hard stuff to figure out.  You should be more inclusive, seems the elite team of merchants on the covert project didn't think of this stuff.

Edit:  After an investigation of the listing feature, lets see what else is wrong with it:-

• Choosing Classic or Mesh avatars just adds a coat hanger thumbnail, as stated above, why not the pic that you ask us to use?
• If I choose Classic or Mesh Avatar check boxes, I cannot then enter a URL to a branded mesh avatar.  What makes you think that a listing is specific?  What does a merchant do who supports say all three in the same package?
• Cannot provide more than one Avatar brand.  Again, no reason to assume that a listing is specific to just one.  Probable but shouldn't be a forced choice.
• How does a customer actually search using any of these attributes?  Lets take the example given by the wiki article and look for "Paper Panda".  Where is the "find all items for THIS brand?" option?  Keywords don't work.

So as we all know, search is largely useless because of keyword spamming and although I don't expect to find a mesh avatar called paper panda, as expected one of the items has keywords:-

Keywords: gore, roleplay, gorean, neko, werewolf, furry, panda, lingerie, piercing, tattoo, free, freebie, skin, free skin, sassy, plastik, collar, posture collar, dress, paper doll, cute, shape, macabre, rp

 Without the right ability to search properly, adding this extra data into the database becomes a one way event with the merchant doing the work and customers STILL not able to make use of it.  C'mon, get with the programme, this is so unfinished as it stands.  Sack that focus team, either they failed to articulate what should have been done, failed to identify it or if they did, LL failed to implement it.

[darmid Illyar]

It happens with many things. LL have their favourite sycophants who are included on many things and no one else is told or asked. I feel that a lot of opinions and suggestions from the community should be listened to but they are totally ignored instead. It has been the case in the past with many (if not all) projects and initiatives.

 

It is a little annoying and creates a divide. I think maybe LL are pushing for a class system. Think it has worked. Though it is a natural thing to happen.

 

 

 

Maybe the new CEO will put an end to the inner circle of sycophants and open things up for public discussion and try to have some foresight rather than half-arsed attempts.

Maybe I am just cynical and there will be unicorns and rainbows over the mountain.

[Sassy Romano]

Quite.  http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=five%20monkeys

[Freya Mokusei]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

 

The best bit... you want us to use icons that are copyrighted and require that we include the copyright in each use of.  Do you really think i'm going to waste space on my inworld ad pictures to include that?

On the other hand, LL, you could start by enabling a check box to actually utilise the fact that we've been uploading mesh items, checking a box that says "MESH" and yet people still can't search for mesh by using that attribute.

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Users work harder! Linden Lab do the bare minimum to appear relevent!

Would it really have been so hard to build icons from a side-view of the SL avatar (LL's property) rather than using assets from buttnowhere? This is mystifying. Your suggestion of a Mesh tickbox is so simple to implement and design that I am genuinely confused why it is still absent, let alone why someone at LL thought it was necessary to persue this nonsense.

No-one can search by looking at a tiny icon that looks nearly identical at the 2nd level of MP. This is not any kind of workable solution to finding mesh/fitted mesh or reducing the confusion present within the userbase about the different technologies, or which assets can be worn by which base avatar models.

I'm not on Marketplace (I only sell 1-to-1 and MP has too much dumb per Mb), but as a long-time SL user and MP shopper this entire project is less than useless to me.

Nope nope nope nope nope nope nope.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

oh im pleased to see im not the only one ...

i had exactly the same thoughts than you Sassy after reading the LL post about this topic.

First, what s the hell is that meeting with merchants ? What merchants ? So now, the elite will make the rules for everyone ? while they have privileged rules themselves ?

And where are those elite merchants when the mess with the TOS started ? Ah yes.... surely TOS doesnt apply for them because of their privileges...I start to think that Toysoldier was right about these privileges.

secondly, the icons and the copyright, ive been almost sufocating when i saw that LL asked us to use and copy a copyright on our vendors WHILE LL TOS STILL STATES THEY SIT ON OUR OWN COPYRIGHTS.

So it seems to work with a doble speed... One for elite, one for the crowd... one for the icons (for what omg  we have to use absolutely the copyright) and one for the crowd (who doesnt need respect for they copyrigths anyway). 

So like you, my answer is no.

Im sorry for the owner of the copyright for those icons, but since  LL is the asker and LL doesnt respect my copyright, im going to sit on this one too. And because im honnest, i wont use the icons at all.

im not going to add this icons on my vendor pics. Ive checked the box in the mp for the 3 new items ive added yesterday, but that's the only thing ill agree to do.

 

[Phoebe Avro]

The images for av types are way to similar anyway most sale boxes rezzed in world or vendor units are quite small, a colour coded icon would be better

[Phoebe Avro]

In fact since fitted mesh 'fits' avs anyway thats the whole point of it, why the need of the icons in the first place? only creators of branded mesh av's that have special clothing for those avs need to advertise it, the whole thing seems pointless to me!

[Perrie Juran]

What an absolutely complete and total mess.

I semi-understand the need for something here.  But the cure is about as bad as the cause.

First off, why wasn't there a JIRA soliciting further comments before final implementation?  No transparency here.  Maybe they did think through all the pros and cons, but that was a very bad assumption on their part.

Now I did state I semi-understand the need for this.  The number of threads we have seen just for Lola's from people trying to figure out how to 'wear' clothes over them is enough to tell us that.  And their have been other threads about Mesh Avatars and other's related to this.

I read the knowledge base article.  I've been in SL almost seven years now.  I actually understand the distinctions being explained.  And yet I still had to read it through twice to logic it out.  What a confusing morass this has become for the already confused New User.

This is more like Linden Lab continuing to throw good money after bad with a Market Place system that apparently DOES NOT scale.  (That is the only plausible reason I can think of at this time for why after all this time we still can't segregate demos, a function which has been begged for over and over again.  Maybe we'll get shocked and it will happen but I'm sure not holding my breath).

I don't know what the Sales per Click ratio is in the Marketplace, if it is higher or lower than industry standards compared to things like Amazon or eBay.  It probably is higher but that would only be because it is a captive market.  If I don't quickly find what I am looking for on eBay I can quickly switch to Amazon, etc.  But in Second Life I have no alternative Market to shop so if I really want something I am forced to use the Market Place.

 

 

[Sassy Romano]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

why after all this time we still can't segregate demos, a function which has been begged for over and over again.

 

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Surprisingly this could be done very simply by a change to the query that returns listings.  Nothing for merhants to do.

Every item that's a demo is referenced from the listing of the actual product.

All they have to do is NOT return any listing via search that is referenced from another listing as being a demo.  Demo's only ever need clicking from within the actual product listing.  (This is not necessarily the most optimum method by any stretch but since we were promised something else and given *this*, my tolerance for bad architecture and implementation decisions is low.)

The amount of effort expended in the wrong direction is to be believed.  How ironic that Ebbe Linden said that when we tell them what we need and how to go about it, we're often wrong.  This is what amuses me about LL, it's a company that stands on a world stage in front of peers and those with greater experience in equal fields yet we're perpetually treated like teenagers who have nothing better to do than "Like" a friends posting of a cute cat.

 

[Magnet Homewood]

Another fine mess they got themselves into ... with the help of a merchants meeting?

while we are still looking around in surprise and wondering where this all came from, just keep your eyes open for MP listings that use these icons early on - it will indicate the merchants who had 'inside information' about the secret meeting.

[Perrie Juran]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

why after all this time we still can't segregate demos, a function which has been begged for over and over again.

 

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Surprisingly this could be done very simply by a change to the query that returns listings.  Nothing for merhants to do.

Every item that's a demo is referenced from the listing of the actual product.

All they have to do is NOT return any listing via search that is referenced from another listing as being a demo.  Demo's only ever need clicking from within the actual product listing.  (This is not necessarily the most optimum method by any stretch but since we were promised something else and given *this*, my tolerance for bad architecture and implementation decisions is low.)

The amount of effort expended in the wrong direction is to be believed.  How ironic that Ebbe Linden said that when we tell them what we need and how to go about it, we're often wrong.  This is what amuses me about LL, it's a company that stands on a world stage in front of peers and those with greater experience in equal fields yet we're perpetually treated like teenagers who have nothing better to do than "Like" a friends posting of a cute cat.

 

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I was looking at that from the Consumer's point of view when I do a search. 

And it may be a poor example to use for questioning the scalabilty. 

(I was searching for "hair" and you have to do to much drilling down to get to just "hair."  Initial search results by relevance if you have adult enabled include several cocks.  I guess somewhere in someone's mind hairy cocks are a very relevant thing).

 

[MIstahMoose]

It still astounds me that the community has been raving mad about the same things for quite a long time and Linden Labs well..just ignores it? Sits on it and thinks? I don't know? Nothing happens for the issues the Users think are important.Linden Labs makes me giggle sometimes. I don't think I would ever run a large company the same as they have so far. We will see where the future takes us I suppose~

[Perrie Juran]

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MIstahMoose wrote:

It still astounds me that the community has been raving mad about the same things for quite a long time and Linden Labs well..just ignores it? Sits on it and thinks? I don't know? Nothing happens for the issues the Users think are important.Linden Labs makes me giggle sometimes. I don't think I would ever run a large company the same as they have so far. We will see where the future takes us I suppose~

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Raving Mad may be a strong term, but some of it is enough to make you want to pull your hair out.

And I do agree with Ebbe when he stated most of the times the things people suggest are "wrong."

But in the case of the Merchants, that sometimes they feel like "Second Class Citizens" in SL, I totally understand that feeling despite the reasurances they keep getting that they are not.

[Dartagan Shepherd]

"And I do agree with Ebbe when he stated most of the times the things people suggest are "wrong.""

 

I do and don't. It goes about as far as any other blanket statement, which is to say not very.

It applies when the user doesn't have all the information such as stats, an inside look at the code or design or the big picture.

On the other hand, employees in the trenches often know more than their employees and go off to start "better" run companies. Users (some of whom may be as qualified as the employees) when informed can and sometimes do know better.

A for instance example: None of the commerce team had any experience whatsoever in commerce or shopping carts. If you remember the early people and discussions when the team was first formed that was crystal clear that they were looking at and asking for commerce examples from other commerce sites.

Some of their decisions against user input has proven to be wrong.

Bottom line is that we're here with a team that after some years still hasn't been able to fix some fairly basic mistakes like say overbilling on marketplace enhancements when in fact some of our own people among the user base have done independent SL marketplaces and solved those problems, making them somewhat more experienced than SL commerce team that came into this cold.

It sounds clever and sometimes it's right and sometimes it's wrong. When faced with this lack of quality and practicial decision making in the markplace it's wrong. In the viewer re-write (viewer 2) it was wrong, etc.

It's just as important to know when the employees are wrong and the users are right. And when to fire those who can't code their way out of a shopping cart.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

I guess somewhere in someone's mind hairy cocks are a very relevant thing).

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...Dres

[Perrie Juran]

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

"And I do agree with Ebbe when he stated most of the times the things people suggest are "wrong.""

 

I do and don't. It goes about as far as any other blanket statement, which is to say not very.

It applies when the user doesn't have all the information such as stats, an inside look at the code or design or the big picture.

On the other hand, employees in the trenches often know more than their employees and go off to start "better" run companies. Users (some of whom may be as qualified as the employees) when informed can and sometimes do know better.

A for instance example: None of the commerce team had any experience whatsoever in commerce or shopping carts. If you remember the early people and discussions when the team was first formed that was crystal clear that they were looking at and asking for commerce examples from other commerce sites.

Some of their decisions against user input has proven to be wrong.

Bottom line is that we're here with a team that after some years still hasn't been able to fix some fairly basic mistakes like say overbilling on marketplace enhancements when in fact some of our own people among the user base have done independent SL marketplaces and solved those problems, making them somewhat more experienced than SL commerce team that came into this cold.

It sounds clever and sometimes it's right and sometimes it's wrong. When faced with this lack of quality and practicial decision making in the markplace it's wrong. In the viewer re-write (viewer 2) it was wrong, etc.

It's just as important to know when the employees are wrong and the users are right. And when to fire those who can't code their way out of a shopping cart.

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We could get into a very long side discussion / tangent here.

Sometimes UI decisions amaze me.  I've been known to say that the decision makers must not have a Second Life or they would never have done this.  To me, CHUI is a prime, prime example.

On the software end, it's a different story.  Because there are all these proprietary sub systems that we really don't know anything about.  And sometimes until something is rolled out on a large scale you don't see the dominoe effect.  Getting sub system A to interface with sub system B is not always as easy as we may think.

But to the topic at hand, what I really see is a bigger problem.  Regardless of whether Mesh Clothes are rigged or fitted or what have you, as a user there should be no reason why I should have to concern myself with this.  I should be able to buy your Mesh clothes and wear it out of the box and it should simply work.

The fact that anyone needs to concern themselves with this now, that fault lays with the management who were present at Linden Lab at the time Mesh went live.  They either failed to see the dominoe effect of their decision or they chose to ignore it at that time.

 

[Spica Inventor]

"And I do agree with Ebbe when he stated most of the times the things people suggest are "wrong.""

 

True in the case of L.L. employees in general, but not true in the case of S.L. Merchants in general i've noticed.

 

“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

:smileywink:

 

[Medhue Simoni]

OMG, they show just how disconnected they are when they post BS standards that they know nothing about. It's fricken hilarious really. They attempt to clear things up by making things more confusing. Don't you love how LL can't even name things properly. So, for mesh clothing, we put AVATAR labels on things. Could they make it more confusing? I don't think they even know what the mesh clothing confusion is. Who are these merchants they are consulting with?

Where did they come up with this Branded crap too. Would not Custom Avatar be a much better label. Every1 understands what custom means. What the heck branded has to do with anything, I can't figure out.

I'm ignoring their request. It doesn't even make any sense.

 

Ok, I lied, I checked it out. Crazy part is, it's simple to understand on the MP. It's their explainations that are confusing. My Lycan is a custom avatar. So, I decided to give it a try. ................... Why can't I add a brand? Why do I even waste my time?

[Steph Catseye]

Thank you Sassy for sharing, I love the level of inexperince on the Linden Labs side.

1) I don't think FitMesh will catch on. Most designers I know have dropped it already, my test group of customers hated it and I just don't see the point to have another system that is based on shape adjustments while people really want sliders where they can adjust the fabrics.

2) Where are all the decent mesh avatars that make this worth mentioning? A Custom mesh avatar will most likely require custom mesh clothing, how is a standard icon going to make sense in this matter? It doesn't make sense.

3) Rigged Mesh is the standard and will remain the standard until they come up with a deformer system.

Interesting enough, one of the designers who attends these meetings is advertising FitMesh as  "Liquid Mesh" which is an entirely different project. I am wondering if these designers are actually involved in the project or if they were just used to attend these meetings in order for LL to drop their names. You would think that a designer who helps developing a system takes some pride in that and would not intentionally distance herself from the name LL has chosen for a project that will fail within 6 months time from now

[Steph Catseye]

I believe the best way to protes their stupid ideas is to ignore them.

I won't produce anymore FitMesh nor will any of my friends because nobody seems to think it is an improvement at all.
If nobody produces it that's the way to send a clear message to LL that we don't like it.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Steph Catseye wrote:

 

Interesting enough, one of the designers who attends these meetings is advertising FitMesh as  "Liquid Mesh" which is an entirely different project. I am wondering if these designers are actually involved in the project or if they were just used to attend these meetings in order for LL to drop their names. You would think that a designer who helps developing a system takes some pride in that and would not intentionally distance herself from the name LL has chosen for a project that will fail within 6 months time from now

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So, you know who one of these mystery merchants is?!?!? YOU MUST BE ONE OF THE ELITE!!! Burn her!! Burn the elite merchant!!! She turned me into a newt!!! :smileywink: