Foreign Languages in SL

[Prokofy Neva]

One of the obstacles in SL not  just to friendship but any interaction at all is the question of foreign languages in a setting dominated by English. All kinds of ingenious workarounds have been created, mainly with various HUDS, available for sale or for free, that pick up languages and translate them with Google (which isn't perfect, but often surprisingly good for basic conversations).

As I speak a foreign language (Russian) and can understand a bit of another (French) and have tried to learn "landlord Spanish" to some extent, I've studied this problem a bit. I also work on this project "International Bazaar" where I make available as many real-life country sim landmarks available and try to have the foreign language kiosks from the Lindens available, the HUDs, etc.

There was the opening of a Japanese railroad in Burns the other night and a friend gave me an even better HUD than I'd been using which I can send anyone inworld if you want to ping me, it was adequate -- but of course the biggest challenge for HUDs is that you have to go teleport in person, i.e. as far as I know there isn't an "IM HUD" that converts IMs on the spot.

Last night despite struggling for 2 days with a guy who had Portugese as his native language I lost him because of those bugabears of SL that cause so much misunderstanding -- autoreturn, outdated notecards from 4 years ago that are still passed around even if no longer relevant (wouldn't it be great if SL had "global recall" for outdated notecards or "global override" for outdated notecards).

There is a translation project putting the entire viewer into foreign languages as I know, not all are covered yet.

But I wonder if anybody has made like a "quickstart" with like 5-10 basic things about SL that every newbie needs to know in all languages. I have a few of the languages.

 

[Cato Badger]

Everybody, not just foreigners, needs to be able to understand "If you can not speak English don't waste my time".

[Laetizia Coronet]

Yes, there are loads of such multilingual help cards around. Mentors had them, and I remember the Metaverse entry point had the whole 'introductory course' translated in an array of different languages. I helped craft the Dutch one.The problem is that it requires an awful amount of unpaid volunteer work to keep updating such 'knowledge bases' as it were into the most important languages. And to have them for all the viewers, etcetera.

I still think that basic English is necessary to function well in SL beyond your own community - but of course that's up to the non-English speakers themselves to decide.

[Prokofy Neva]

I couldn't accept that as a premise whatsoever.

I wouldn't be in business in Second Life today if I didn't offer my ads and cards in foreign languages.

I routinely offer foreign-language ads or help cards when I can find them because otherwise, there's a simple math: I wouldn't have customers.

Second Life contains a population of over 60 percent non-U.S. (not sure what the latest figures are as the statistics page was removed, but it's a lot). There are numerous people who log on regularly and shop who not only don't have English as a first language, they simply don't know English, period.

Philip Linden said once "I made SL for everybody".

[Prokofy Neva]

Yes, there are loads of lengthy multilingual cards around.

But what I'm saying are quick quickstarts.

Even one guide that has 10 major languages on it, like a foreign exchange kiosk does in real life.

I agree about unpaid work. As a real-life translator who makes a living in part from translating, I don't accept this casually, and I might even see if I can find funds to pay for a master quickstart card.

I guess what I'd find interesting is to see what is the 6 things you'd reduce down to a notecard about SL that you'd want anyone person to know so that they don't get frustrated?

Like "the search box is in the upper right corner, type in words of interest to you to find places, events, and people".

 

[Laetizia Coronet]

We're colleagues, I know. Interesting question. The five to ten things you must know to get started. Search is definitely important. Communication (chat, voice chat, IM) is as well. Moving about, especially teleporting since the actual moving is very logical (one of the few things which are!). Paying (I added this to humour you of course ;-) ) is important. Marketplace is, but I am not sure if it has settings in different languages at all.

I'm sure people will come up with more.

 

[scripts1488303089]

This thread sounds eeirly similar to what W.E. was 'demanding' of LL.  Albeit, your methodology and writing is more comprehensible.

[Venus Petrov]

Perhaps a starter would be to provide them with one card that has links to the 'non-English' forums here.  There are many on those forums that are well-equipped to help a newbie who speaks their language.

[Jewell Laryukov]

The translation project for the viewer is "on Hold". There won´t be any new languages added in the forseeable future and some of the languages which are supported now will be phased out.

There is a quick start guide for french, german and japanese on the website. Probably not what you´re looking for but it might be a start. Also, the international section of Answers and the forums often provides some good help

[Prokofy Neva]

I didn't follow all the Wasted drama, it was clearly some kind of special interest aggressively at work.

I don't ask Linden Lab to do a darn thing about this. They've already done a number of things in fact -- they have kiosks in major foreign languages; they have a robust volunteer translating program; they've encouraged some large language communities. I don't ask anything more.

If anything, I try to take what they've done and optimize it, make sure that it is visible, etc.

I think residents have to take care of this themselves and not ask the company to do anything that isn't really in its interests. It just closed a bunch of offices overseas, in part for austerity measures, in part because it didn't bring the profits they sought given the costs.

So it's up to users to encourage this on their own. It cannot be an imposition on the platform. I'm not for politically-correct multi-lingual signs being forced on a populace that uses English as a working language.

I'm for trying to build in some easements and comfort ramps for people so that they don't find SL such an obstacle.

 

 

[Prokofy Neva]

Thanks that's a good start. I didn't have that link, although I do have all those kiosks in world -- they don't seem "short" -- but I'm going to compare the two and see if the one on the website is better or easier to copy and use that.

[Prokofy Neva]

Excellent idea I hadn't thought of. I have links to the language sims inworld, but that should be supplemented with the web link.

[Prokofy Neva]

I appreciate your need to dig at "payments" as if you imagine the only reason people ever do anything is if they are greedy money-grubbers in a land business, blah blah.

But a) if you are in the Mainland rentals business in Second Life, you are not a greedy money grubber but a hippie socialist who has to have their head examined b) in fact it's ok to have people do things because they're motivated by at least reimbursement of costs if not profit.

I view the profit motive as not at all an evil thing but a good thing, so we may differ there, but I also think even good-will donation types in SL like to get costs covered to keep their good will from getting frayed.

So if you can tell people that they make more sales if they put out language ads or language help cards, that may be motivation for them when their default is to say "make them use English" -- and then if they do follow up, they might make the world a better place.

I think self-interest coupled with reasonable betterment proposals that anyone can feel comfortable with are all that has ever made the world a better place.

Idealistic notions devised from superstructures on high and imposed on people or socially engineered to trick them to do something beneficial are not workable and destructive.

[Laetizia Coronet]

I was kidding about the payments. I had a shop once, remember? It wasn't much but it wasn't a freebie palace either. Lighten up a bit will you?

[Laetizia Coronet]

By the way, giving landmarks to the language/country communities inworld does a lot of good. That works every time.

[Marshall Burner]

 

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Cato Badger wrote:

Everybody, not just foreigners, needs to be able to understand "If you can not speak English don't waste my time".

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Sighs seriously ? You are that important your are not willing to even try ?

If someone approaches me in a language I don't understand, I will try to at least understand what he wants by using a translator or finding someone who understand the language.

SL is confusing when you start, especially if you are not talking English, worse if you are not computer savvy.

Sending the lost people to sims where they will find people talking the same language is often the best solution.

 

Or you can just spit a venomous answer about the the fact the person talking to you is not speaking English, mute him and leave him there wrapped in your own imaginary superiority.

[rotpaulette Carter]

Caring Topic Neva,nice from you.

When a *foreign* new avatar log in, it is going in itsown community,  and i assure you the power of communication in world is very big,a lot more than SL can offer.

Those translation tools ,like google or reverso are  pipicaca, just good to translate,  hi,   or good morning.

[valerie Inshan]

LOl, Rot! Let me quote Cato from another thread:

 

Re: Post count frozen

03-04-2011 04:52 AM

 

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Cato Badger wrote:
Pep has informed me that he has been working with the Lindens on the "rank" calculation algorithm, and one of the critical factors is the absence of grammatical and spelling errors; only well-formed and worded posts will be attributed towards your post count, and hence to your rank.

 

Spooky, huh? :smileytongue:

[rotpaulette Carter]

I am not running for post count and rank first,  and second  who in hell is Pep?

[valerie Inshan]

 

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rotpaulette Carter wrote:

I am not running for post count and rank first,  and second  who in hell is Pep?

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Hahaha !!! Yes, who is he?

 

[Cato Badger]

Marshall, is your own command of the English language less than satisfactory? Your response would suggest that. Have I said that I personally would say such a thing? Your reaction suggests you have emotional issues regarding the question which appears to cloud your judgment. This thread is attempting to identify what would be useful to foreigners. Since a large proportion of the residents of SL are uninterested in foreigners who are unable to make themselves understood effectively in English (please don't argue that this is not the case or you will be exposing yourself to further ridicule) it makes a huge amount of sense for foreigners to avoid annoying such individuals - not merely by wasting the time of the xenophobes, but because they would be wasting their own time as well. Morality, or whatever else it is that you are attempting to argue should be paramount, is irrelevant in practical terms. Get real!

[Marshall Burner]

Ok now I am confused.

All you said in this post who as far as in understand it was about trying to improve communication in SL between people whether they speak the same language or not was:

 

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Cato Badger wrote:

Everybody, not just foreigners, needs to be able to understand "If you can not speak English don't waste my time".

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No you haven't said that you would personally say such a thing, but really that's all that you said so how could we know ?

So everybody whether they speak English or not should understand that ?

are you suggesting that people should put that in their profile and LL should give a training to every new non English speaking resident so they understand that sentence ?

And you tell me to "get real" ?

 

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Cato Badger wrote:

you will be exposing yourself to further ridicule

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I don't think it is exposing oneself to ridicule to point at the fact that saying to someone "if you can't speak English, and try to talk to me, you are wasting my time" is behaving like an arrogant jerk.

 

Anyway sorry if I misunderstood the meaning of your post and overreacted, I will ignore your posts from no on.

I must admit half of what you said doesn't make much sense to me, and the fact you don't bother to use the "enter" key once in a while make them painful to read.

 

 

[Cato Badger]

You have said it yourself, and demonstrated my point exquisitely, better than any exposition I could offer, by admitting that you only understand half of what I have written - yet you were prepared to waste my time pretending that you had understood me, or even worse, assuming that you had understood me, and my good manners have as a consequence compelled me to expend effort in correcting your misconceptions. I shall not act as your tutor any longer.

[Monalisa Robbiani]

I can only speak for the German community, being  German-speaking myself.

The German community in SL is almost like a separated part of SL. My personal SL experience is like having 2 Second Lives: The English-speaking part of my friendslist almost never meets the German-speaking part. This is due to the fact that most German-speakers don't know English at all and, instead of trying to change that, expect that everyone in SL speaks their language. Everything is expected to be translated, be it blogs, forums, support, viewer.

So the real goal is not bringing SL to foreign language speakers, but bringing foreign language speakers to the SL community.

[Prokofy Neva]

I totally agree that the objective should not be to force people to speak English. You don't do that in real-life, why do it in SL?

To me, some of the most thrilling moments of SL are when I can travel to another sim, take out a HUD or use the online Google or Babelfish translators (which I find better than HUDS to use personally even though some are the same thing), and paste in some text, and have a conversation.

To be able to have a conversation about buying something, getting something custom made, recommendations for places to visit -- that's all great.

If you can go forward and even have more of a conversation, it's even more rewarding.

Example -- going to the Polish sims and sharing with the Polish people their national tragedy with the plane crash where their leaders were lost, seeing their vigils, memorial services, etc.

going to the Egypt sims and hearing people discuss the demonstrations in Tahrir square, Mubarak's fall and so on.

going to Brazilian sims and talking with young entrepreneurs about their burgeoning population in SL, what they find interesting

The most dramatic moment ever in my Second Life is when a customer rented a store, and then walked toward me in full traditional Japanese costume, and spoke into the chat entirely in Japanese characters, and I took a HUD and translated them, and saw the phrases like, "Do you like my store? What else should I put out? Can I put in an advertisement?"

It was just stunning. The drama of encountering a completely different culture, something about which you know little, a people against whom we fought in a war more than 50 years ago, and to be able to share in some basic thing like making a store interesting. This is the beauty and possibility of Second Life. And it begins as cross-cultural communications have always begun, at marketplaces, more than at negotiations tables.

So in a sense what I'm saying is it's about being willing to go to them, not having them come to us, and it's about being willing to use a HUD - and that starts with me, and I'm reluctant to use them (especially as often it means customers out of the blue sending me TPs so they can HUD to me in chat).

I'd be interested to hear more your thoughts about "So the real goal is..."

I have found both Spanish and Portugese customers are so used to having to try to adapt to English that they keep their HUDS on all the time and speak out in two languages all the time.