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Marigold Devin
Posts: 4,898

Re: Mainland Revamp

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Reply to Indigo Mertel - view message


Indigo Mertel wrote:

I am one of those people who actively worked to clean up and beautify the corner of Mainland where I live. For the past 4+ years I have worked hard and spent tons of money to consolidate land, remove ugly builds, merge micro-parcels. I have been following this thread with interest because I have invested a lot into Mainland.

IMO, though zoning could bring some apparent benefits I don't think it's a viable solution. I'd like to suggest a different solution.

ERCFoundingDay.jpg

April 28th 2008, founding day of the East River Community. We started with 1/2 a region.

In 2008, I and a few friends founded the East River Community. I believe our community is based on a model that may work on a larger scale to improve Mainland. Today the ERC is a federation of groups with a common charter and a steering committee. Candidates (groups or individuals) who want to be part of the federation must comply to some requirements set in the charter.

Our goal is to create a positive, friendly environment and a cohesive ambient, preserving our area from the uglyness so diffused on Mainland. We have a set of rules to regulate the relations of land owners but our charter is also made as to keep the red tape as low as possible.

Though we don't actively pursue affiliations of new members (but we welcome new ones), our model is working pretty well and those who know our community agree it is one of those gems that can be occasionally found on Mainland.

ercmap0810.jpg

Map of the ERC, August 2010. The community is a lot larger now, spanning about 6 regions... but our cartographer is a bit lazy... :matte-motes-asleep-2:

In my opinion this is a model that Linden Lab should encourage. Rather than forcing zoning on everyone and forcing lots of people to adapt -- while at the same time forcing Linden Lab to police zoned areas -- I believe it would be more productive to encourage people to form self-regulated communities.

Linden Lab should only set some basic rules (land preservation being one) and offer incentives to encourage people to aggregate (say, a discount on land tier, better land management tools, etc.). Communities such as ERC offer a good environment, better land value and automatic zoning. They are autonomous, self-regulated and run by enthusiast people who invest work and money into the community. Committed people who take the wealth of the community at heart.

Muirhead Village_001.jpg

Muirhead Village at night.

Anything forced from above on a reality as complex as Mainland, and Second Life in general, is bound to fail and make lots of people angry. The best solution, imo, is to encourage people to aggregate and form self-regulated communities based on some common values.

 



This is what LL would hope that we would do. Govern ourselves, and make the mainland pleasant to live in. I enjoyed reading your post enormously, and looking at the photos. It's very heartening.

While it might not be everyone's cup of tea to be governed or have such a closely-knit feeling, for some people it works well like that, just like in real life some areas have a very successful neighbourhood watch scheme (or neighbour-watch-each-other scheme as my brother calls it in his area).

I live very independently, on a small chunk of a very landlocked sim.  For some reason, the people who have purchased land on the sim have tended to bunch up very close to me, but we rarely see each other, and I like that.  It feels a bit like a holiday caravan park, where everyone's accommodation is slightly different and quirky, someone will bring a fountain or a flamingo for decoration, a couple of people keep pets, but the sim I am on is not unpleasant, except for the vast stretches of abandoned land that have never been turned around for auction or put up for sale.

The group I am in that works towards making mainland a tidier and more pleasant place to be doesn't have a cluster of sims as yours does, and works in a different, but effective way. 

I just feel no one of us can fix the world, but if we all make our own bit pleasant (real and virtual), we can all enjoy the benefits of that. 

 



Learning something new every day.
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Marigold Devin
Posts: 4,898

Re: Mainland Revamp

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Reply to Qie Niangao - view message


Qie Niangao wrote:

Whether there's an opportunity to spur better Mainland development top-down through market force incentives or something like "zoning" or bottom-up through community formation, it will not matter if Linden Lab doesn't follow through.

And things will continue to get worse on the Mainland if Linden Lab keeps introducing new things that actively undo what little they've been willing to do to date.

Here's an example:

passionkiller.jpg

How do you get a mess like this?  Two simple steps:  First, install a simplistic script that automatically sets parcels for sale after abandonment without any awareness of what it's just done in the vicinity. Second, fail to enforce the rules, including landsplitting, that were introduced to mitigate the violence done to the Mainland by adfarmers

I used to submit support tickets whenever I found these things, and indeed Support would take care of them.  But it's just gotten to be too much.  Here are two more I came across in recent travels, still in the same state today:

Tyta.jpg

Hantu.jpg

Without follow-through, it will hardly matter what new Mainland ideas are adopted.


This is one of those issues that does actually tee me off about LL. I hope that didn't cause anyone to fall off their chair in surprise, because I usually get accused of backing LL up 100%. 

Great photos, Qie, illustrating one of the issues of mainland that in my opinion LL do need to address.  It's obvious that someone has gone to the trouble of cutting up their land prior to abandoning it in such a way that it will probably either sit forever looking barren and ugly, or more likely that slivers of it will be bought by people who will make bits of the sim look ugly with just vendor boards, that aren't in breach of ToS, but just look ugly if they're not housed inside a building, and that will make the rest of the slivers unsaleable, and the sim even uglier. 

Of course, LL hope that someone with a conscience, and with money, will come along, "do the right thing", and buy all those parcels of land, piece them all together, and either use them, or cut them into usable chunks and attempt to sell them on.

This I don't find acceptable.  I would even volunteer to go around resizing these bits of land and setting them for sale, putting small pretty gardens on them in the meantime, if LL would trust me to do that (which, of course, they would be foolish to, because I'm just a resident, and someone they do not know if they can trust in such a way).  As a result, the sim would be more aesthetically pleasing, and be more likely to appeal to someone looking to buy land.

I still submit support tickets when I see land cut like this.  I usually have only 50% success rate, so I don't go out of my way to look for them, unless that's my half hour wind-down session. 

Learning something new every day.
Vesper Kling
Posts: 43
Registered: ‎02-19-2010

Re: Mainland Revamp

[ Edited ]

Reply to Indigo Mertel - view message

I did sail outside East River community some months ago and was totally impressed! Its a wonderful piece of land you all have been creating. I believe a lot in the power of a community and East River is a great example of  how it´s possible. And for people who wants to live in a community like this but also want to build some strange (pink?=)) stuff, why not do it above 1000m?

And I agree, Pussycat´s blog is great!

http://eternalmetaverse.wordpress.com/
Helper
Marigold Devin
Posts: 4,898

Re: Mainland Revamp

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Reply to Knowl Paine - view message


Knowl Paine wrote:

I would imagine that LL could enforce Zoning the same way they enforce most SL policies "You Cannot Access Second Life with this Account".

I suspect that there was a time when it benefited LL to spread out the content, so that it would appear that we had more than we did.

LL doesn't need any additional staff to enforce Zoning, the AR process would be sufficient. Self Governance of and by the Residents. 

The hardships and struggles of those who were forced to move to Zindra, often overshadows the hardships and struggles of the Residents who were left behind. As stated, many Mainlanders live in an abandoned and barren wasteland. From the map, Zindra appears to be alive and well on a brand new Continent. From the map, it is clear to see where massive amounts of time, energy and resources have been allocated.

 

 

........................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Many Private Regions have a Building Codes in their Covenants. A claim that building codes are only good for them, is hypocrisy.

I will offer an equal and opposite recommendation, why don't all the Residents who want Pink buildings, search each other out, form groups, make notices and place AD's in order to get their own Region. This stuff drives me crazy. The suggestion that Residents in a residentially themed Region would all need to move so that a few stores could run businesses in residential settings, is Insane!. Get out of my Back Yard! Every aspect of my SL is not a potential for corporate profit. Stop trying to monetize me.

break, now focus.

This is not about micro management of people.

If an avatar is naked in a PG region, and nobody can see it, or reports it; did it really happen? Does it matter? No.

Agreements have spirits. The spirit, is the grounds' or demeanor of the parties, or people, who are a part of the agreement.

Zoning could be used as a factor in determining Fair Use.

A store could operate in a Residential zone. If numerousreports are filed, that would not be good. We should first ask "why" are neighbors so unhappy with the Store. The owner should be given a chance (or several) to work things out with the neighbors. If I owned a Store, I want to make people happy.... right?

If land was for sale in Kuula, and a resident built as house, should the rest of Region owners move? Of course not. The region, and others like it, should be zoned Educational. Same goes for Entertainment and Clubs.

I have seen Residents accidentally purchase land near a popular meeting place, and then try to AR a club that has been there for years. This lot of frustration, purchased unwittingly, could have been prevented had the Region been zoned. 


Yes, I feel that too, about the residents left behind on mainland after Zindra came into being. There was so much fuss about people having to be "herded" along to Zindra, and yet we knew the knock-on effect of that would be massive chunks of land left abandoned, and land prices dropping dramatically. 

While the overall number of people who have registered as Second Life residents has certainly grown since the opening of Zindra, going on the concurrency figures, we don't seem to need all the extra sims that have been created. As well as Zindra there have been the Linden Homes sims, and private regions coming and going, and so the mainland was destined to become quite tumbleweed-strewn in places.

If there were strong enough characters already living on the mainland who wished to take it upon themselves to purchase chunks of a sim and theme them up, others would undoubtedly, as I did on Oxal sim, follow suit, build in theme, but there would always be those who chose to be contrary.

We can attempt to mould our virtual world as we would like to see our real life, with a bit more order and beauty involved, but always it boils down to what the lowest common denominator want.  The blot on the landscape. 

This thread is the most interesting one I've read in a while.  All too often someone makes a remark on the forums about how vile/barren/ugly the mainland is, and while some parts are, much of it is not, and the biggest part of mainland is just empty completely.  Those of us that love the mainland, do so with a passion, and feel frustrated and disrespected when others go out of their way to bring it down.

What fascinates me is if you go around the fringes of the mainland, where the waterlands meet the sims, you find a lot of Governor-Linden owned sims, that have nothing else on them, just the water and the land, and no build enabled.  You are not encouraged to go with our bucket and spade and enjoy an hour autoreturn.  LL always just want to see what we do - see if we really will all end up like those kids in "The Lord of the Flies".



 

 

Learning something new every day.
Resident
om Charron
Posts: 2

Re: Mainland Revamp

Reply to Gingir Ghoststar - view message

Oh...just like the gated communities. or perhaps you mean like a theme park? What is beautiful for some is not for everyone. You ever seen some people's dogs? I do like highways to drive on and Rez on but then you get all those auto Rez machines that block the roads and greedy landowners building over the road. They are probably on the draconian beautifying kick too.. Democracy has a way of showing off people's good and bad taste. I say, buy yourself a chunk of mainland and make it like you think it should be. Don't expect daddy linden to come in and make your dream. Did you see that crap boat they handed out? Make your own community is what I say.
Qie Niangao
Posts: 3,923
Registered: ‎02-25-2009

Re: Mainland Revamp

Reply to Pussycat Catnap - view message


Pussycat Catnap wrote:

- Given my blog today, where I looked at the numbers and show the mainland is more profitable for LLs than estate land:

http://catnapkitty.wordpress.com/2012/03/14/mainland-versus-estate-which-is-the-better-bang-for-your...


This used to come up at Jack Linden office hours, where the Estate folks complained that their higher per-sim fees (US$295) subsidized Mainland (US$195 for full sim tier).  Jack responded that in fact, the average Mainland sim earned LL only very slightly less than a full Estate sim.  Now, I don't know what went into that "average"... whether it included the overhead of abandoned land, Linden/LDPW infrastructure, double-prim allotments... none of that was made explicit.  And of course times change, but I think the amount of abandoned Mainland that LL has to carry is somewhat higher now (ever since Zindra really). So, I doubt that Mainland actually earns LL more per sim than Estates, assuming Jack was correct in his accounting.  I suspect it's still just slightly less.

Also, in theory, LL should have higher costs per Mainland sim, to staff for the estate manager role.  In practice, however, the amount of support they actually invest in Mainland has to be very small, and some (most?) of it would be needed somewhere anyway, as long as they keep public sandboxes and infohubs.

Vesper Kling
Posts: 43
Registered: ‎02-19-2010

Re: Mainland Revamp

Reply to om Charron - view message


om Charron wrote:
Oh...just like the gated communities. or perhaps you mean like a theme park? What is beautiful for some is not for everyone. You ever seen some people's dogs? I do like highways to drive on and Rez on but then you get all those auto Rez machines that block the roads and greedy landowners building over the road. They are probably on the draconian beautifying kick too.. Democracy has a way of showing off people's good and bad taste. I say, buy yourself a chunk of mainland and make it like you think it should be. Don't expect daddy linden to come in and make your dream. Did you see that crap boat they handed out? Make your own community is what I say.

Communities are fine yes, but we cant expect that everyone has the funds needed to buy the amount of land necessary to protect themselves from a horrid surrounding. If LL is gaining from customers being premium they need to make ppl want to have their land, on mainland. Otherwise there is no point in it. If you think mainland s-cks you may as well rent on a private themed island and LL looses a premium customer. That´s not the way to go I believe...

I dont expect LL to be any kind of "daddy" but I expect them to want to make good business. And to allow people to build eyesore pink huge prims all over mainland is not good business :]

read Pussycat´s blog, its brill; Mainland vs Private estates

http://eternalmetaverse.wordpress.com/
Indigo Mertel
Posts: 214
Topics: 18
Registered: ‎03-09-2009

Re: Mainland Revamp

[ Edited ]

Reply to Marigold Devin - view message

>> While it might not be everyone's cup of tea to be governed or have such a closely-knit feeling <<

Very true, Marigold. In fact, I don't think there should be a "one model fit all" solution, nor I think the model I suggest would be the solution of all problems for Mainland.There will always be areas which will remain chaotic and poorly maintained. Just consider the vast amount of land owners who are just out of the loop, with very little involvement in SL. That's fine, some residents appreciate the chaotic nature of Mainland, so there is space for that as well.

However, by offering benefits in joining a community many land owners are given a reason to join one, or get some people together and start a new one. This would give a spin to a positive trend that may have good results. Our community is proof of what benefits our model brought to our area. You should have seen how the regions in our district looked like 5 - 6 years ago, total chaos.

Our model works because our members are encouraged to take pride of all the work they put into their land and being part of a common project, we share resources and support each other and the benefits are visible. And, note that I said their land, because our charter says that each group or individual remains the sole owner of the land. Our members are not forced to submit their land to a common group, they keep full control of it. This is why it is a federative model.

In my opinion, the model I suggest is what would bring the most benefits without forcing everyone to adapt. LL should encourage people to form self-governing communities, not forcing them to adopt it. Those who don't want it should not be forced to be part of it. And, by being self-governing bodies it would be up to their members to decide the level of involvement they want to have, or how close-knit they want to be. Some don't like the idea of being part of a community? Fine, call it a land trust, the result is the same. :matte-motes-asleep-2:

The only things that should be a requirement are some basic rules with the purpose of improving Mainland. Thus, offering benefits in exchange of better land management.

* Indigo
East River Community - Founder | A friendly community with homes and stores rentals | Our Flickr stream
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Indigo Mertel
Posts: 214
Topics: 18
Registered: ‎03-09-2009

Re: Mainland Revamp

Reply to Vesper Kling - view message

Thank you for your kind words, Vesper. And I agree that a community, a federation of groups or a land trust, however people want to call it (see my other post about this bit) still leaves room to accomodate special needs. In our case, maintaining a cohesive environment is a fundamental need, but we can still accomodate specific needs. Thus, we do exactly what you suggest and allow sky boxes at an altitude so that they are not an eye-sore.

* Indigo
East River Community - Founder | A friendly community with homes and stores rentals | Our Flickr stream
MetaLibrary - The best tutorials, resources, tips and tricks selected for SL residents.

Want to feel the pulse of Second Life with the latest news? I share the best info from top SL bloggers. Feeds available on Twitter, Plurk, Google+, Facebook.

Posts: 4,168
Topics: 60
Registered: ‎09-16-2009

Re: Mainland Revamp

Reply to Qie Niangao - view message


Qie Niangao wrote:

Pussycat Catnap wrote:

- Given my blog today, where I looked at the numbers and show the mainland is more profitable for LLs than estate land:

http://catnapkitty.wordpress.com/2012/03/14/mainland-versus-estate-which-is-the-better-bang-for-your...


This used to come up at Jack Linden office hours, where the Estate folks complained that their higher per-sim fees (US$295) subsidized Mainland (US$195 for full sim tier).  Jack responded that in fact, the average Mainland sim earned LL only very slightly less than a full Estate sim.

 

So, I doubt that Mainland actually earns LL more per sim than Estates, assuming Jack was correct in his accounting.  I suspect it's still just slightly less.


And yet all numbers point otherwise

His response may simply have been assuming sim for sim with mainland at a very low occupancy. Because it has to hit 62% empty before it pays less than an estate.

- If one sim is 100% empty, and its neighbor is 100% full, that's still mainland sims earning more than an estate, overall - in terms of sim ratios. BUT you could also say that the individual empty sim is paying LLs less than an individual estate.

 

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