General Discussions

[Jenn Lennie]

Hiyas!

So I thought I get a lil creative afterall, I can build alright, create simple sculpts, work scripts etc. etc. ..

So I thought I create full perm builds for resell, that become 10l or better looking free items hopefully eventually.... no idea how that will work out but ANYWAY..

I am about to use other freebies, sculpts, animations, scripts etc. that are already out on the market full perm and that were 'aquired in good faith' etc. etc.

Now.. this is irrelevant to my builds really since I am not planning on selling full perm 'builders packs' made by others but it got me thinking .. if the creators sell full perm stuff and let's remember they actually check the boxes copy/modify/transfer on their objects and then making you accept their policy/tos etc. to not resell or give away the item... does that work?? or is it like those people that put a 'by talking to me you forfeit all rights about our conversation' (something like that lol) thinking they can play around sl tos?

My god lol, long story short... could selling or giving away FULL PERM stuff be against tos in any way? does it matter if the seller that limits you to use it is a rl company? do they have to actually copyright their stuff?

to sum it up again ;P ... is it considered content theft or is it only a moral thing?

[Suella Ember]

Its complex, but legally speaking, if you buy something that came with "terms of use" set by the creator and you break those terms of use you will certainly be subject to DMCA action and could be subject to RL legal action should the original creator have the finances and desire to take it that far.

Stick to terms of use and don't make yourself one of the bad guys. It will ultimately come back to bite you one way or another!

[Amity Slade]

Permissions and intellectual property rights are two separate issues.

In the legal since, selling something full permissions does not give up your (limited) rights on their use and resale via license.

In a practical sense, once you give someone a full perm copy of an item, you can expect that item to be a freebie forever.  It's hard enough to track what happens to that item that you sold full-perm, harder still to enforce your property rights once you find violations.

I have seen some merchants license full-perm items for resale (e.g., I am selling my clothing line to ten merchants only who will have full perm copies to use for resale under ______ restrictions).  I do not know what methods they use to police compliance with their licenses; perhaps one of those merchants will share.

There are other methods, of which I don't know the details, but basically someone can buy a license to use an item from you, and get access to x number of non-copyable copies to use in items for resale.  That's the way the xPose animation scripting system works (at least used to work), for example.

Despite intentional violation of your property rights, those full-perm copies could also be accidents waiting to happen.  It just takes one time for someone to forget to check those permissions for resale, and the item is now available in every freebie area in SL.

You can always make your items available to others full perm with a license restriction on how they can be used.  Your big problem is actual enforcement of your licenses.  A permission limitation is much easier on you.

[Qie Niangao Advisor]

to sum it up again ;P ... is it considered content theft or is it only a moral thing?

Assuming their End User License Agreement (or whatever they called it) would be upheld in court, it's really a legal matter not "only a moral" one.

The SL permissions qualify as a license grant in lieu of other terms, but once one agrees to supplementary conditions (by purchasing the product), those conditions may be in force.  "May be" because they'd have a hard time extracting that pound of flesh, even if it's a condition of sale.

Caveat: IANAL, etc.

[Jenn Lennie]

ah! I just found the following quote in a different threat:

http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php

3.2 You retain copyright and other intellectual property rights with respect to Content you create in Second Life, to the extent that you have such rights under applicable law. However, you must make certain representations and warranties, and provide certain license rights, forbearances and indemnification, to Linden Lab and to other users of Second Life.

..meaning, it is a moral thing.. unless they can provide actual rl paid (don't know the right word) copyright proof?

[Peggy Paperdoll Recognized Helper]

I most commonly see this restriction or limitation in textures. The creator sells you the texture full permissions so that you may use the texture in a build or product that you create to sell.  But the texture creator does not want to allow you to sell the texture as a texture.........that is understandable since allowing you to also sell the texture is setting up a situation where the creator of the texture is undermining his/her future sales for the texture.  Those restrictions are usually spelled out in a notecard.  It's an "honor system" of sorts but legally, it is binding.

An example would be you buy a texture for a house that has a doorway and a window with a brick veneer.  You build a house using that texture you are legally allowed to sell the house with that texture on it.  If the texture was not sold to as full permissions you would be limited in how you would be allowed to sell your house since the permission system would limit what you could do with any item containing the texture.........if that nice door/window/brick texture had  copy-mod-no transfer you could not sell your house to anyone.  If it were no copy- mod- transfer then you could sell it but you would loose the one copy you had.  Selling full permissions to you is the only way to make the texture useful.......but you, as the buyer of that texture, agree not to sell the texture itself.

[Jenn Lennie]

Hi Peggy I understand the creators/full perm sellers view and how they mean the 'may not resell individualy' but my question was if telling you 'by purchasing you agree not to...' has any use at all.

I quoted a quote of the tos just before your answer, since i found that info at the same time you replied (see above). reading it, does it make you change your point of view?

[Kitty Barnett]

Qie.Niangao wrote:
Assuming their End User License Agreement (or whatever they called it) would be upheld in court, it's really a legal matter not "only a moral" one.

The license wouldn't necessarily have to come into play: if someone creates something and someone else uses it in some fashion then copyright (and related laws and exemptions for this or that use, etc) would just apply.

I'd think it's only if the use falls outside those boundaries that the question of whether or not the license applies (ie "if you use this texture then you agree to give me your first born child") comes into play.

The SL permissions qualify as a license grant in lieu of other terms, but once one agrees to supplementary conditions (by purchasing the product), those conditions may be in force.

I don't think permissions ever qualify as a waiver from the copyright holder. It's very dusty but I think in a copyright licensing dispute it's up to the alleged infringer to show that they did indeed have permission?

Easiest example would be the web: everything on a web page is essentially "full permission" but that doesn't in any way imply that you can just pick and reuse anything at all.

[Peggy Paperdoll Recognized Helper]

No it doesn't make me change my point of view.  That's legalize basically telling you that LL is not responsible and it's between you (the buyer) and the seller.  And once you make your item it's between you (the seller) and the buyer.  It's telling you to read any documentation or warranties, restrictions, limitations and understand them.  Just as any other buyer seller agreement in existance.  There are copyright laws, intellilectual property right laws, trademark rules.............all sort of things that exist everywhere in the world of sales be that world real or virtual.

Full perms means you have full permissions..............as set forth by the seller and by your purchasing the product you agree to them.  You answered your question.  It can get as complicated as you want but that's up to you.

Jenn.Lennie wrote:
Hi Peggy  I understand the creators/full perm sellers view and how they mean the 'may not resell individualy' but my question was if telling you 'by purchasing you agree not to...' has any use at all.
I quoted a quote of the tos just before your answer, since i found that info at the same time you replied (see above). reading it, does it make you change your point of view?

[Suella Ember]

The quote from the ToS clearly states that content in SL is subject to "applicable law" and that would include any "by purchasing you agree not to ..." clause. If you broke such a clause you could in theory be taken to a RL court by the original creator. That is a fact. It has yet to be fully tested whether a case such as that would hold up in court, but it is a legal issue not a moral one.

The second part of that quote is merely the LL "get out clause" to cover general display of items in SL, people taking snapshots of creations etc.

I say again - stick the the terms of use for anything you buy or it will come back to bite you one way or another. Perhaps not in a RL court of law, but you could well find your reputation in SL ruined, DMCAs filed against you, and ultimately suspensions or bans from SL.