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You've Got Till November 1st...........................


Perrie Juran
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Phil Deakins wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


sloowdown wrote:

Are you kidding me how do you propose a person will test and make the games if not in SL? If you are not an apporved Creator then you cant create games in SL!

 


You could make the game using Open SIM.

And while there has been no official statement I'd think it should be possible to test and tweak on Additi because no one can buy or sell $L's there.  It would be perfect for this purpose.

There is a lot of scripting that gets done outside of SL using LSL editors. 

He can make such games here in SL, and he doesn't need to be on a skill gaming sim to do it. If it's not available for the public to play, it's good. When it's ready, he can apply to be an approved creator in the normal way.

He's just objecting to everything because he spent non-refundable money trying to become an approved something, and he was turned down. It's just sour grapes.

I was just addressing his adamant "there is no way to do it" statements.

I agree with others that when it says. "please ensure that you are not.... creating....in Second Life," it can't mean he can't build in the privacy of his own SIM. That simply makes no sense. But we have known LL to do senseless things on occasion.  I simply had no desire to delve into the nuances of all that.

There is no question that the new policy imposes challenges for someone to become approved.  I'll never deny that.  If someone is not up to the task that is OK too.  Why LL has chosen now to do this no one really knows.  The lawyer from the SL Bar Association who did the Q&A on this could think of no specific reason.  My guess is that the situation had gotten out of hand and that is why LL decided that they needed to act before the legal hammer came down on them.  If I wanted to, I could dig out threads in this Forum where people complained that they never received their pay outs, etc.  So problems were happening. 

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My point is this.... Why make people jump thought all those hoops you approve them or not. The policy seems to do just one thing clearly slow down the competetion simple as that. There is no reason in the world to have something that vauge and open to interpetation unless there was a reason. I am not bitter at all. I have gotten my money back that i paid for the license. Had a 3 way call with LL and they had no idea what they wnated and what they meant or provided. The answers were vauge and the third party involved in the call could not believe they could not even state what the fees were for and how they would be for my use. You see all i wanted to do is do this the Legal way for nevada which requires me to have an interactive gaming license with the state. i operate a few slot machines now so can just expand my license, it would take less time to get me gaming license from the state of nevada than it would for LL to approve me lol now thats a joke. SL was just a way for me to get started and also there is a lot of money being made at it. I did not just jump up and say that i wanted to operate skilled gaming in SL i did the homework and paid to have done what I could not. I sent all the things to LL they they requested and also reference of my current gaming license and intentions to get interactive license in Nevada. Hired an extra 5 people to create games that are not all the same as the current ones in SL now which are really all the same. Did a study of the profitability and was then told that i need to use the approved creators games or use games approved by LL which stops the process of creating. So I decided i would contact the approved creators and they have no response so far. If the policy says that you cant create the games unless you are approved creator i would not create the games unless i was approved. May be thats one of the problems so many are looking for ways around things that arwe not clear, Ll needs to enforce what they state not just write it. That tells me that there is a problem Red flags pop up. There is no phone number to talk to anyone. This is in my opinion no way to do business. Again the process is to slow competetion if that was not the purpose of it then that is the result. What makes LL approve a game? What is the criteria? My state law, yours? What they would be getting is the benefit of my money to spread the games that they choose to allow. I would pay for the land, and god knows how much the approved creators wanted to use the games they have. It just smells bad and tastes even worse. as a operator and managwer of a major casino the way to keep a customer is to allow them to win, the current win % will kill gaming and not create new users and retain the old ones it is just wrong. My games would keep 3-8% encourage new user signups and growth not just a fast buck before a Virtual world dies!

Case in point i have some land with small ad parcels on it on the mainland (16m). The TOS says they can only be so high in the air, which they are twice that and against the TOs It has been 1 month since i filed a complaint and nothing has been done or no communication to me. LL you have some managment issues that need addressed. Stop making rules you dont intend to enforce. You have a great product but stop taking and put some back into it. You have a economy that you are selling and it is in crisis because of the way you dont act and when you do act it is not guided!

I did not mean to offend anyone I just speak on my opinion and dont really care if anyone agrees so please if you want to discuss stick to issues and not personal attacks. I dont know any of you and do not want to, just discuss.

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one more thing if all this is true why is it not a name with Linden in it saying what all seem to try to say is the way it is? what I am saying came from a Linden last name and i go with what they told since they are the ones who collect the money.

Do you think they are not reading this? Open your minds people!

I will just say they are reading this and you will see some changes to reflect what i am saying or not...... if not then i will not only walk away I will run lol.

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I was going to reply to many points in your post but decided it just wouldn't be worth the effort.

For the record, I have nothing against you nor do I see a reason why any one else who had replied would.  There are some people who would tell you to go rot in hell for running a gambling or gaming operation but I haven't seen any of them replying to you in these threads.

I'm glad you were able to get your credit card charges reversed and wish you well.

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sloowdown wrote:

If the policy says that you cant create the games unless you are approved creator i would not create the games unless i was approved. May be thats one of the problems so many are looking for ways around things that arwe not clear

things are clear. Just not to everyone apparently

when operate a skill game then the creator and operator of that game must be approved

the creator is the account that is listed in properties as the Creator

the operator is the account that is listed in properties as the Owner

each of these accounts must be related to a actual RL person who provides RL documentation to proof the relationship to the account

+

people sometimes come to wrong conclusions when start reading into it what actual isnt there. Over-complicating it

the Creator is the account as said above. Thats it. Is no other definition of Creator

+

the actual persons who actual made every actual component in the actual game may or not be the actual Creator (the account listed as Creator)

when take this to its safest conclusion (in terms of safe compliance) then these actual persons should not be listed as the Creator of the components

so if want to be safe safe and are employing others to work on your team then: Get scripts as text files. Get textures as TGA. Get mesh models in the RL. Upload them all using the Creator account

when anybody ever say this means that they (the team component makers) are the Creator and not you then is nonsense for them to say this. You are the Creator of the game for the purpose of the Program. You are documented/approved to be this

 

 

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sloowdown wrote:

Yes until November 1st, but this is not well thought out or it is to well thought out. Only a few people will be allowed to have the gaming sims. Also the games that are to be offered will be the same old Zyngo type games as LL wont allow new people in. This is my last email to them about my gaming license.

 

Gentlemen and all concerned,

.... 

   a.) There are laws in Nevada on the percentage you can keep as a hold% of drop and if i were to go to an attorney with the figures i have seen of a hold % of 35-50% that would be illegal as no game skilled or non-skilled is allowed to keep that much from a patron in the state of Nevada or in America. I know this as i have been a key license holder in the state of Nevada for again 33 years. What I was offering to your company was a honest legal operation that did not keep all of the patrons money and in fact gave them a chance to actually win which the current games i have monitored in SL do not offer. My hold % would be between 3-8%. I do not want to run that type of a operation (30-50% hold%) as even if it is legal in my state or any state it is morally wrong.

.... 

Your lengthy post was a good read sloowdown. I do want to add my 2 cents to this and say that the part I quoted above with your mention about the large % hold has been a big concern with customers going to the gaming sims both before and after the new Skill Gaming Policy. The concerns are even more amplified now since many are now more aware or pay attention hoping the new policy would create a much more "fair" environment for both the customers and operators. Unfortunately, with some customers experiencing losing more money than before (low win ratio) and LL's lack of enforcement after the gaming policy went into effect September 1st, it has gotten rather messy.

I think though that there is a bigger issue also at hand that you also touched a little upon with the application and any fees to LL associated with gaming on SL. It will have to be seen come November 1st, how actively and effectively LL goes about enforcing the Skill Gaming Policy. This has been rather absent since the new policy went into effect on September 1st as there are still some unapproved gaming sims still in business and a couple approved ones running some unapproved games. If after November 1st, LL fails to effectively enforce the policy in its entirety they set forth and continue to collect fees, I do believe this would amount to being a scam or fraud from a real life legal point of view. They would have essentially made game operators and creators spend a lot of real currency for application and legal fees collecting them under the false idea that LL was being serious and would actively do their side of things.

Important thing for everyone to keep in mind is that no matter what version of the TOS or additional policies is drafted up and implemented by LL, any state, federal or real life laws would supercede them and have the final word at any time.

Hopefully, there will be a much more noticeable change for the better come November 1st...

 

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Basically, what I get from the "November 1 deadline" Linden Lab blogpost is that from that date forward, LL will actively enforce that:

1. no skill games are operated that are not already approved or subject of an ongoing application review;

2. no skill games are operated by someone that doesn't have a license or an ongoing application review for such license;

3. no skill games are operated by anyone outside a skill gaming region.

Conclusion is that those applicants who are waiting to get approved before changing their sim into a skill gaming region have no choice anymore, come November 1, whether license still under consideration or not, they'll need to run their games in a skill gaming region.

kind regards,
Marishka

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Yes Daisy and thats exactly my points maybe I wrote to much or did not explain what i was saying but you seem to understand my point. When they say you can't create without a approval i take it just as that. If you allow to have the rules up for interpetation it will result in non-compliance. Not create without approval should mean just that. I can't go to my attorney and ask for an approval on those games they currently have in SL. I have a limited gaming license in Nevada to operate 12 slot/video poker machines at my place of business and the hold % is monitored. In order for me to operate those games in SL I would need to have an interactive componet added to my Nevada gaming license. I cant risk my license to run those games they approved now because i would be running an unfair gambling operation with the hold % that is offered to the patron, this is a fact! I tried to contact the approved creators and no answers from them. They seem to not only not want to share or discuss the way to market their games but make it impossible to get data on the hold % and workings of the machine programs. I can make my own but need time and will not invest in that until i am approved. Why would I?

So my point is why not if people pay the fees to have the license and purchase a gaimg region why not allow them to create from that point? Sure it would take me 2-3 months to get set-up but at least you know that the money you are spending is for something you can actually do. 

When you see the approvals they are showing and look at the games all being the same one would have to assume it is the way LL wants it as they are in control. Ahold % of 3-8% is more than enough to run a profitable sim as i have done the numbers. I looked at the greedy game and if run with a average # players of 12-14 and the game runs every 10 min or so the profit on that one 24 seat game is $112,000 year at a 35% hold. The hold may be sligly less as i have no way to know how much is being put into the bonus jackpots but i played it for a week non-stop and it is not much. So the money is there to run a more fair game which in turn would make gaming grow in SL. This is not a thoery this is a fact as i do it on a daily basis.

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sloowdown wrote:

Yes Daisy and thats exactly my points maybe I wrote to much or did not explain what i was saying but you seem to understand my point. When they say you can't create without a approval i take it just as that. If you allow to have the rules up for interpetation it will result in non-compliance. Not create without approval should mean just that.

You need to apply a bit of thought and common sense to it.

 

Thought

At what point does a creation become subject to the skill gaming policy? When the prims are made? Of course not. In fact, the earliest possible time when it becomes subject to the policy is when it accepts payment to play and pays out to the players. Unless it does both of those, it is not subject to the policy. So you can create as many games as you like up to that point. You can create a game with the payout remmed out for testing. Then you can rem out the pay in part and put the pay out in. You can create one right up to that point with out any problems from the policy. You cannot possibly disagree with that so far.

 

Common sense

It is common sense that the word "operator" in the policy means one who operates a game for other people to use. If other people can't use it, it's not gaming because there is no gaming involved. Money never leaves you when you use it yourself. So, if you rez a skill gaming game in your home, use it yourself, and take it back into your inventory when you've finished, so that nobody else can possibly use it, then you are not an "operator" of it as far as the policy is concerned, and you are not subject to the 'operator' part of the policy.

Therefore, you can create a pay-to-play game that accepts and pays out money as long as it is not possible for other people to use it. If other people can't use it, it is not subject to the policy because it is not gaming. The policy is about gaming and there is no gaming involved when you pay your object and receive from it, because the money is always yours. You can neither win nor lose. No gaming.

So you can legally create such games in SL. They only become subject to the policy when other people can use them for gaming.

 

You do seem to want to find problems where there are none. I hope that that explanation is helpful to you.

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Well I suppose I should thank LL for banning Tennessee from Games. I have rediscovered how much fun On Line Poker is. and uhhhh Is that LEGAL in Tennessee? **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/html/assets/emoticons/mattemotes/agape.png" border="0" alt=":matte-motes-agape:" title="" /> Why YES it IS > THANK YOU LINDEN LABS

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No I am not looking for problems at all even it that is what it appears. I just dont think Common Sense and attorney both go in the same sentence. I work with procedures and follow them, that is how i do things. If the rules and procedures are allowed and need to be thought of in the context of interpetation then you will get just that many different results. If i wanted to be involved in that type of thing then i would run for political office. 

Its just not a way I intend to start a relationship in a virtual world with no way to discuss other than a forum. If the rules need so much debate then mkaybe if there was a phone number that i could call and talk to a person to get things sorted maybe... The way this is being rolled out as far as i am cncerned is not clear and therefore not worth the time and money investesment needed to do it. just not a good look as far as i am concerned. For others maybe it will work but for me not interested, rules are not made  and enforced this way in my world.

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sloowdown wrote:

No I am not looking for problems at all even it that is what it appears. I just dont think Common Sense and attorney both go in the same sentence. I work with procedures and follow them, that is how i do things. If the rules and procedures are allowed and need to be thought of in the context of interpetation then you will get just that many different results. If i wanted to be involved in that type of thing then i would run for political office. 

Its just not a way I intend to start a relationship in a virtual world with no way to discuss other than a forum. If the rules need so much debate then mkaybe if there was a phone number that i could call and talk to a person to get things sorted maybe...
The way this is being rolled out as far as i am cncerned is not clear and therefore not worth the time and money investesment needed to do it
. just not a good look as far as i am concerned. For others maybe it will work but for me not interested, rules are not made  and enforced this way in my world.

Fair enough. What you do is entirely your choice. I've explained that you can create skill gaming games in SL, and why you can do it, and you choose not to accept it. No problem.

Personally, I'm pleased that you are not getting involved. I'd be even more pleased if all gaming was banned altogether. I don't approve of it.

 

ETA:

In case anyone else is labouring under the misapprehansion that skill gaming games are not allowed to be created in SL without a creator license, I'll mention this. I know of someone who, very recently, was issued with a warning for operating a skill gaming game without having fulfilled what is required to operate them - without a license or application for a license, etc. The game was removed, of course, but it was not removed from SL. It remained in the person's inventory. So skill gaming games are allowed without being licensed, and it's only when other people can use them that licenses are required.

Just out of interest, it wasn't any sort gaming game at all, and the Linden who issued the warning was wrong. On appeal, the decision was correctly reversed and the warning removed from the records.

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Thank you for your time to explain this again to me. It is not that i am not hearing you or the others. Do you represent LL? That is why I keep asking the question, wanted to hear from an official source before and if I decide to move forward and yes it is my choice. What we have here is really nothing more than lets say a political situation which is being played out. Kinda like a lobby to be clear on future events. We all have our reasons and motives.

Looking for LL management to explain in plain terms what will be happening. I am new here so maybe you are known to speak for the company but i am not aware of the hierarchy of the forum. I just know that all who work with the company last name is Linden, which i could be wrong about that also.

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Ok thanks, but i kinda did not expect an answer from LL I have support tickets in for that ...... but I am sure they are reading them hence the slowed response from them concerning the issues i have discussed. Before they answered in less than 24 hours and now so far a week from last message. Lets just say maybe from them reading this it will make gaming better and the program a littel bit better by them thinking over some of the ways things are done. I do not say this to say what i write or any response is that important but i just kinda know how to bring awareness to some things and this is the way. I already see some of the hold % going down on the games even if those games are not complient to the TOS for skilled Gaming. Lets just wait and see the results.

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