Why Creators use NO MOD on their scripted items??

[Coby Foden]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

... , and not being able to remove the scrips is not a problem..

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That's your opinion. :smileytongue:

Here's mine:

No mod items are a PITA; no mod items with non removable scripts are even more PITA. They are so for those who are adept in adjusting prim clothing and items on avatar to fit perfectly. No script can do what one can do by adjusting prims manually.

Therefore I always try to avoid any no mod clothing/avatar accessory items; unless it's something I "cannot live without". :smileyvery-happy:

So, it's mostly 'no mod - no buy' thing for me.

[Siemp Bender]

I wish all creators sees that!, there is not one good reasson to sell stuff NO MOD, sometimes I get the feeling that the creators are just so proude on thier scripted items they just don't want ppl to take them out. I really hope they are waking up and finally see what they do with their nice creations.... it is just breaking down the creation....

[Sassy Romano]

Not entirely true. Some items work as "consumable" items so should work for a certain time, then stop. They can't be mod otherwise the scripts could be reset and without resorting to other methods would fail to work as intended.

 

Time limited demos would be another.

 

It's a specific use case though.

[Siemp Bender]

FashionNatic is a great store, with helpful people, after I send them a notecard, they replaced my items in a MOD version. They told me they are in contact with the scripter to add a button "Delete all scripts". One good point they explaine me is: when the item is MOD, pll can change colors, and they selling different colors them self. So I advise them to made a MOD version a bit more expensive for ppl who what to have the item mod.

[Sassy Romano]

Well yes that's the other reason give, god forbid that the customer has to buy the same thing more than once in different colours.  I still do that anyway because I have little interest in texturing but there's other reasons to want something modify as already discussed.

A prime example is a dress in both black and white.  I can't buy black and just set white in the colour picker, nor can I buy white and apply black colour.  Sure I can buy white and apply a slight tint but that's about all and if i want to completely change the texture from that of the creator, so what?

Simply using it as a means to force another purchase isn't a great reason and so what if someone changes the colour to something other than the creators choice?  I don't get it.

[Sathya Breil]

I think many are in the same situation as myself. We are not scripters, so we buy the best scripts we can afford, best rated and such and then we are force to work with whats thefe in order to offer what we want ( a garment that offerst many texture options.).

At the end is not about proud or about merchants not wanting to make their stuff no mod, is just its the only way to get to use the texture scripts.

I would want to have the script to have a delete button if anyone wants to delete the thing, but to be honest I dont think the scripters will add it sometime shortly because people will buy the scripts anyway, since all alternatives are the same as that one or worst.

[Sassy Romano]

So that I understand fully, why are you setting the object to no mod, just because you have added scripts?

[Sathya Breil]

Yes, the scripts are made so that if the perms are copy/mod or trans/mod it will delete itself. The only way to use them (i've tried several), is if the product is no mod.

[Perrie Juran]

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Sathya Breil wrote:

Yes, the scripts are made so that if the perms are copy/mod or trans/mod it will delete itself. The only way to use them (i've tried several), is if the product is no mod.

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That sounds to me like the scripters are going overboard trying to keep their scripts from escaping into the wild.  But that is an action in futilty.  There is no way that action would accomplish this.

[Sassy Romano]

Right, just to check, are we talking about the permissions of the scripts or the containing object?

If it IS the containting object then there is not ONE good reason for the scripter dictating those permissions, as long as the scripts themselves are no mod.

Those scripts should be named and shamed and chucked in trash as fast as possible as they are prescribing negative building behaviour which stands to lose YOU sales.

Contact a reputable scripter that isn't a total **bleep** and have some decent ones written.

Please feel free to pop me an IM with the details of the scripts, I'd love to review them on MP

 

[Sathya Breil]

The scripts I use are really well known. Its not the first one I tried. I ended up with these because they were easy to work with. 90% of the scripts I tried had thjs feature.

The scripts itself are no mod, when I build the product i need to use a licence script, that will ONLY work if the object is set to no mod, and then i can put the master script for the hud or slave one for the garment. If the object perms are modify the script delete itself from the object, so it cant be used at all. The only one Ive tried that didnt had this issue had a worse one. It had a resizer included and even when set to disable the resizer was workig; this must sound like who cares, but if were talking about a demo, its a huge issue because the demo sign could be resized to disapear without afecting the mesh, if it was riggged. This scripter in particular knew about this, and the solution I was offered was to use Mega prims to attach at demos...... And trust me, it wasnt a cheap set of scripts

 

[Sassy Romano]

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Siemp Bender wrote:

 One good point they explaine me is: when the item is MOD, pll can change colors, and they selling different colors them self. So I advise them to made a MOD version a bit more expensive for ppl who what to have the item mod.

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My opinion here... "RUBBISH!"  Yes some might but most don't care and as i've said before, I can change the tint slightly but the majority of people can't change textures that easily as to qualify making the product no mod.

If someone includes say the shadow textures, UV map and leave the item mod, i'm more likely to buy even if I never take advantage of the option to make my own texture.

[Qie Niangao]

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Sathya Breil wrote:

The scripts I use are really well known. Its not the first one I tried. I ended up with these because they were easy to work with. 90% of the scripts I tried had thjs feature.

The scripts itself are no mod, when I build the product i need to use a licence script, that will ONLY work if the object is set to no mod, and then i can put the master script for the hud or slave one for the garment. If the object perms are modify the script delete itself from the object, so it cant be used at all. The only one Ive tried that didnt had this issue had a worse one. It had a resizer included and even when set to disable the resizer was workig; this must sound like who cares, but if were talking about a demo, its a huge issue because the demo sign could be resized to disapear without afecting the mesh, if it was riggged. This scripter in particular knew about this, and the solution I was offered was to use Mega prims to attach at demos...... And trust me, it wasnt a cheap set of scripts

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This situation is just crazy. And even worse, in an earlier post, you mention that the scripts don't even include a way for the end-user to delete the script from the item. (I grant that a basic re-texturing / re-sizing script need not be so large that it's grid-threatening not to be deleted, but it's such a standard functionality now, so expected by customers, one would think the scripter would need to include it just to keep any business at all.)

What I'm finding so weird about this is that no creator should want their scripts to work differently from any other creators. That would be counterproductive because the more common a script, the more likely the buyer will already know how to use it without the merchant getting as many support requests.

So it's not simply that the scripters suck, it's that economics doesn't seem to be working. Very odd.

[Sathya Breil]

I think that, and I speak for myself here, but Im not a scripter and so I cant make my own scripts or I will. What me as a merchant would like to see is a script that wont ask me to put my textures or my texture id on the object im making. And that have a posibility to change parts of the mesh separetly and that have the delete me option, just in case someone wants to delete it. Rigged mesh offers very little possible changes even if its mod, you cant resize it and you cant toss just any texture in it and expect it to work, because it has to follow the uv maps. And as for offering the aos and such, I sometimes make my own mesh but other times I buy templates and with those come the TOS, among them is that I cant redistribute the light maps.

So that is not possible either. But it would be nice yes, for some more experienced costumers that the item would be mod. Maybe they want to change the shine, make the item rlv, change the shade, etc. But right now I dont see how would ths be possible if the item has a texture changer.

[Siemp Bender]

Maybe I am crazy, but I would say, as long the scripts doesn't do what is needed, just do not use them! Then make a package with all different textures in a box (so you have each item multiple, with all the different textures or sizes).... and maybe for the ppl who want to use a hud, you add one piece with the crapy script in it.... I really do not see why you MUST use a script, it is a nice future, but as long it is not working right, I do not see why selling it in the first place….. also ppl who doesn’t know how everything works… If a new to sl person buys the clothes, he is just lagging a sim without even know it! And imagine you own a Sim, and the most visitors are new users…. With nice hair, clothes, feet, and other stuff!... What can you do as a sim owner about that? Right…. Put a security script, so ppl gets tped home…. Nice to get new ppl interested in SL!

 

I think the creators also have their responsibility to do something against the log in SL.... and think about the use when they create something.... They should knowing ppl are use their product with other products together.. I wish LL put in som more rules to avoid this problem, or the market should solve it, but that will only happening if all ppl knew what this scripts is causing. 

[Sathya Breil]

I dont think you understand what put every posible color combination in every size would mean.

Say you have a regular mesh dress just a dress with no accesories belts or whatever. With an average material number of 4, in 5 standard sizes plus fitmesh. I offer around 30 textures in every pack. The scripts allows costumers to choose what parts they change so they can mix textures and such. This will mean i would have to make all the possible combinations (more than a thousen) and then multiply that by 6 ( each size) and then put those thousens dresses inside a box. I dont think thats a posibility really. The other option is to just, like i did in the past offer one single color per box. I think that is more restraining than to add a script and make it no mod. Plus i dont think its totally fair to just charge full price for a hue change of a texture. To be fair, the script does work, and does what its supposed to, that is change textures. I just think it will be better if it had a delete me option whitin it. Also, about new users, a box with a gazillion option dresses is far more complicated to use than just 5 sizes and some buttons. I dont think merchants should be pointed out on every problem of sl, we are not forcing products on people. I think users should know that they cant put everything is out there at one time and expect not to lag. I agree, that the kill me button should be there, i dont agree that the scripts should be not used untill they are perfect.

[Qie Niangao]

This thread is instructive for me. After seeing this, I'm thinking more and more that we need FOSS scripts that do this retexturing function efficiently and conveniently, maybe accompanied by an optional resizer, all equipped with the newest LSL functions (e.g., materials setting as well as full-object rescale in a single call).

I don't know when I'll get time to work on this myself, if ever. (I'm kind of buried in the Experience Permissions beta -- which is extraordinarily cool, by the way. Stuff in here with all kinds of applicability beyond what we thought of "Experiences"... stuff of scripters' dreams, I tells ya! But I digress.)

What's so instructive is the kind of requirements that creators would have for such scripts. For example, the problem of not resizing a "DEMO" prim, that's so practical and so simple -- and something I'd never think of myself  in a million years.

This part confused me: "What me as a merchant would like to see is a script that wont ask me to put my textures or my texture id on the object im making." Now, if this just means that the product shouldn't expose those textures nor their UUIDs, that's clear. But if it's saying something else, something about how the scripts should get loaded with the texture information needed to operate, then those are requirements that need some further specification.

[Sathya Breil]

Its just not to expose the textures in such an obvious way really, like put all the texture numbers id, on a notecard inside the object or like place such numbers as description for that object, or simply place the textures full perm inside the object ( like open collar script for texture changer for instance asked, at one time. Im not sure its like that anymore). One of the scripts I tried at one point, had a feature that you actually didnt have to put either a number id for a texture or the texture itself. There was some procedure were you went to a web page and grab a code number for each texture. It was a really cool idea. Unfortunatly it was so complex for me at least to set up that I gave up with it. Sorry again for my english, its terrible without spell check.

[Dresden Ceriano]

I have a very hard time believing your assertion.  I've looked through MP and haven't found one hud maker who indicates that their scripts work the way you claim they do.  I've also read through a good number of reviews and no one of the reviewers has stated what you have here in any of their written revues.  I'm certain that, if those restrictions are actually in place, someone would've indicated as much in at least one of their revues.  After all, it's a really big deal.

I admit, I've no personal knowledge of any scripted hud color/size controllers, as they are not necessary for what I create.  I just find it very hard to believe, coming from a fairly new-to-the-forum, only-one-who-has-ever-said-this-was-a-problem type of person.  My skepticism may very well be misplaced, but for the sake of creators who rely upon those types of huds as part of their business model, I sincerely hope I'm not.

...Dres

Edited for clarity.

[Sathya Breil]

Im not new, I just dont post much. dont know really, and I wasnt trying to make a denunce of anything. The question was, why creators made their stuff no mod, and so I only talked out of my experience onto why my stuff was no mod. Im not saying its everyones issue or something of the kind. Just stated what my experience with the scripts I used was. Maybe this no mod feature is not seen as an issue and so it wont appear in the reviews. I didnt though it was an impediment to use the scripts, because i thought they did their job and a rig mesh had very little to be changed. Now, if you look at the rig mesh items that have a hud, you can see they are all no mod. Please if you find any mod, let me know. Since this thread started i got curious as to see if other products like mine were mod and i was just not working the scripts as i should, and i didnt find any. I suspect it has something to do with the scripts.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Sathya Breil wrote:

I dont know really. I only talked out of my experience. Maybe you can search for rig mesh products that have a texture changer script and hud that are mod. I havent found any, last time I check, and i suspect is has something to do with the scripts too.

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You do realize that objects can actually be mod, even though they appear to be no-mod in your inventory... right?

...Dres

[Sathya Breil]

Not sure were you read that i was talking of my inv in my last post. For someone that does not build, you certantly look down on people who do. I do know that about perms. Do you know how to work with huds?....like...at all?

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Sathya Breil wrote:

Not sure were you read that i was talking of my inv in my last post. For someone that does not build, you certantly look down on people who do. I do know that about perms. Do you know how to work with huds?....like...at all?

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Excuse the living hell out of me... I was merely offering a suggestion as to what might be your problem.  Obviously, you've got more problems than that with which I can help.

...Dres

[Sathya Breil]

Thing is I dont have a problem. The op asked why merchants offered no mod products and I just answer what was the case for me. That was it. Then they asked how was it and just, again told what the experience had been. Perhaps my english is even worse than I thoug. If thats the case, then im sorry. I think scripts can be improved but, so does everything in sl. I dont think its a problem, rather than a situation honestly.

[Qie Niangao]

Not to justify this script behaviour (I suspect the scripts are just stupidly protecting themselves from being redistributed), but there are related complexities in securing from prying eyes textures and their UUIDs.*

I agree that it's pretty clunky to pass out actual texture assets just to permit retexturing of an object. In the previously-cited case of OpenCollar, of course, those textures are intended to be freely distributed -- hence "OpenCollar" -- and of course it's a win if an item's textures are already in wide use elsewhere so they're already loaded in many viewers' caches. But smart or not, most creators will want to keep their textures more private than that.

Instead of needing texture assets, retexturing scripts can use texture UUIDs, but still somehow the scripts must know those UUIDs, and that's not as simple as it sounds. If the UUIDs are stored in notecards, besides being annoying for the creator, any notecard readable by the intended scripts is also readable by a trivial script that dumps the contents to local chat. (Only products that are both no-mod and no-copy are immune here; otherwise that notecard is an open book.)

A more sophisticated way to do this is to embed the UUIDs in the retexturing script itself, custom-generated for each product. That's how I'd do it myself, so the creator just copies the generated text as their own script. Even this, however, has a vulnerability: the script can be used to put those textures on other objects. In practice, that's not likely to matter; I mean, who really cares if a customer can paint their couch and lingerie with the same set of textures? But if a creator did care, the script would have to be fussy about only running in objects created by that creator.

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*Ignoring that some TPVs merrily blurt out texture UUIDs because they can, and so they must, because SL just isn't complicated enough without moar viewer features.